Bullshitters.... someone that makes up shit so often you shake your head

[Moen]

Wow...you really suck at life.  You make a claim, then can't even back it up.  What are your three Masters in again?   Personally, I wish this thread would just *poof*.  

I owned your ass here...plain and simple.

Communication sciences, Sociology and soon in Philosophy. Me defending the orthopedics' view would be seriously out of my league. For the last time: I'm merely stating what I hear from them. I'm clearly NOT educated on the matter myself so I get my information from educated MD's, plain and simple. You thus didn't "own" nothing.

[Moen]

If you really want me to, I can look for links on what MD's have to say about chiropractics. But I'm sure you've already heard most of that.

[Hulkotron]

I work with a lot of ortho surgeons and PTs and I've yet to encounter one who has a favorable opinion of chiropractic.

[Big Chiro Flex]

I work with a lot of ortho surgeons and PTs and I've yet to encounter one who has a favorable opinion of chiropractic.

My mentor (a DC) gets a ridiculous volume of business via referrals from each of the 2 specialties listed above. I could ask him for a figure, and post it back here, but I'd ballpark roughly 50 new patients a month from professional referrals.  He also refers out to them as well if he feels they would be better cared for under someone else.

PS what's your occupation bro?

[Krankenstein]

If you really want me to, I can look for links on what MD's have to say about chiropractics. But I'm sure you've already heard most of that.

Yet I can show you quotes from MD's that support chiropractic care for patient and you will continue to talk out of your ass. 

I will appease you on something.  You call my profession quackery.  So here are your questions:

1) Do you call an MD with a specialty in Osteopathy a quack?  (Hint : osteopaths manipulate the spine and extremities much the same way chiropractors do)

2) If MD's really hate us, why are chiropractors on staff at the Mayo Clinic here in the US?  (if you do not kow what the Mayo Clinic is, its a major Hospital network in the US)

You believe some MD's on chiropractic care, but what about these facts:

- For short-term back pain, some studies have shown that it can be as effective as or more effective than conventional treatment.
- For long-term back pain, a 2004 analysis published by the respected Cochrane Collaboration found that chiropractic adjustments were as good as but not better than other treatments like physical therapy, exercise or pain medication.

"Many people have poor posture or habits, and I've found chiropractic treatment is one of the ways the resultant problems can be addressed."  - ANDREA E. GORDON, M.D., a board-certified family doctor practicing integrative medicine and teaching at Tufts University Family Medicine Residency at Cambridge Health Alliance in Malden, Mass. She's also an assistant professor of family medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. (<----- Oh wow...look she went to a University!!!!!)

[Big Chiro Flex]

Yet I can show you quotes from MD's that support chiropractic care for patient and you will continue to talk out of your ass. 

I will appease you on something.  You call my profession quackery.  So here are your questions:

1) Do you call an MD with a specialty in Osteopathy a quack?  (Hint : osteopaths manipulate the spine and extremities much the same way chiropractors do)

2) If MD's really hate us, why are chiropractors on staff at the Mayo Clinic here in the US?  (if you do not kow what the Mayo Clinic is, its a major Hospital network in the US)

You believe some MD's on chiropractic care, but what about these facts:

- For short-term back pain, some studies have shown that it can be as effective as or more effective than conventional treatment.
- For long-term back pain, a 2004 analysis published by the respected Cochrane Collaboration found that chiropractic adjustments were as good as but not better than other treatments like physical therapy, exercise or pain medication.

"Many people have poor posture or habits, and I've found chiropractic treatment is one of the ways the resultant problems can be addressed."  - ANDREA E. GORDON, M.D., a board-certified family doctor practicing integrative medicine and teaching at Tufts University Family Medicine Residency at Cambridge Health Alliance in Malden, Mass. She's also an assistant professor of family medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. (<----- Oh wow...look she went to a University!!!!!)

Also add: why does the government's accrediting agencies recognize the chiropractic schools in the US as They do? They don't throw out that "primary health care physician" title to just anybody.

Also: why does every major health insurance company reimburse for chiropractic treatment?

Also: I'd like the exact locations of every poster in this thread 

[Krankenstein]

I am breaking out my 4oz gloves and heading to my custom built UFC cage for some sparing.  Tomorrow I am going to call Dana White and work out a deal to broadcast the fight between myself and any getbigger that wants to throw hands over this!!!!   

[Big Chiro Flex]

Watch this clip bros, it's 3 mins.

[lovemonkey]

Has the word placebo been mentioned yet?

The overall tendency with chiropractic care is that the more rigorous the studies are in terms of control groups, double-blind protocols etc the more the positive effect of the treatment vanishes. With the most rigorous studies done to date chiropractics has been shown to be about as effective as a pill of Ibuprofen for back pain which is not saying much. NO OTHER benefit has been shown.

Never mind the studies though, what about the actual underlying science? There's nothing to support the idea of "subluxations". It's a made up concept that has not been proven in any way, shape or form.

I'd recommend this book for anyone interested in the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Treatment-Undeniable-Alternative-Medicine/dp/0393337782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344230168&sr=8-1&keywords=trick+or+treatment

[Big Chiro Flex]

Has the word placebo been mentioned yet?

The overall tendency with chiropractic care is that the more rigorous the studies are in terms of control groups, double-blind protocols etc the more the positive effect of the treatment vanishes. With the most rigorous studies done to date chiropractics has been shown to be about as effective as a pill of Ibuprofen for back pain which is not saying much. NO OTHER benefit has been shown.

Never mind the studies though, what about the actual underlying science? There's nothing to support the idea of "subluxations". It's a made up concept that has not been proven in any way, shape or form.

I'd recommend this book for anyone interested in the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Treatment-Undeniable-Alternative-Medicine/dp/0393337782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344230168&sr=8-1&keywords=trick+or+treatment

There is verifiable data to support neural interference caused by vertebral subluxations though?

[Moen]

Yet I can show you quotes from MD's that support chiropractic care for patient and you will continue to talk out of your ass. 

I will appease you on something.  You call my profession quackery.  So here are your questions:

1) Do you call an MD with a specialty in Osteopathy a quack?  (Hint : osteopaths manipulate the spine and extremities much the same way chiropractors do)

2) If MD's really hate us, why are chiropractors on staff at the Mayo Clinic here in the US?  (if you do not kow what the Mayo Clinic is, its a major Hospital network in the US)

You believe some MD's on chiropractic care, but what about these facts:

- For short-term back pain, some studies have shown that it can be as effective as or more effective than conventional treatment.
- For long-term back pain, a 2004 analysis published by the respected Cochrane Collaboration found that chiropractic adjustments were as good as but not better than other treatments like physical therapy, exercise or pain medication.

"Many people have poor posture or habits, and I've found chiropractic treatment is one of the ways the resultant problems can be addressed."  - ANDREA E. GORDON, M.D., a board-certified family doctor practicing integrative medicine and teaching at Tufts University Family Medicine Residency at Cambridge Health Alliance in Malden, Mass. She's also an assistant professor of family medicine at Tufts University School of Medicine. (<----- Oh wow...look she went to a University!!!!!)

First of all, how is merely repeating what several orthopedic surgeons have told me when I asked about chiropractics directly, "talking out of my ass"? It only makes sense for me to get my information from educated MD's and only from them.

1) YES. I have also never heard of an MD reverting to ostheopathy to be honest.

2) No idea. The orthopedic surgeons I've spoken to all were very much against it and this is also mostly what I hear from other surgeons/MD's. I have yet to hear one positive opinion and I've spoken to many about this subject. Just stating my experience here.

I'm not going to dispute actual studies, if they conclude that is the case, then that is the case   I will do some research myself later in the day, that is IF I can still log in to Pubmed because reading summaries of studies is not the way to go. But I'll look it up and if I find positive proof, I'll even post it here  

[Moen]

Also add: why does the government's accrediting agencies recognize the chiropractic schools in the US as They do? They don't throw out that "primary health care physician" title to just anybody.

Also: why does every major health insurance company reimburse for chiropractic treatment?

Also: I'd like the exact locations of every poster in this thread 

I'm neither in the US nor educated on this matter so can't comment!

[Moen]

Has the word placebo been mentioned yet?

The overall tendency with chiropractic care is that the more rigorous the studies are in terms of control groups, double-blind protocols etc the more the positive effect of the treatment vanishes. With the most rigorous studies done to date chiropractics has been shown to be about as effective as a pill of Ibuprofen for back pain which is not saying much. NO OTHER benefit has been shown.

Never mind the studies though, what about the actual underlying science? There's nothing to support the idea of "subluxations". It's a made up concept that has not been proven in any way, shape or form.

I'd recommend this book for anyone interested in the subject:

http://www.amazon.com/Trick-Treatment-Undeniable-Alternative-Medicine/dp/0393337782/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344230168&sr=8-1&keywords=trick+or+treatment

There is indeed no proof I know of that manipulations do anything worthwhile.

[Big Chiro Flex]

There is indeed no proof I know of that manipulations do anything worthwhile.

I've seen some miracles in my docs office man. Legitimately, amazing things. If the patients truly were "faking it", they deserve Oscars.

I myself got into the profession because of my remarkable experience with it when I got my first adjustment at age 19. I told myself right there that if I wanted to help people in my life,  this was what I NEEDED to do. I need to share this with people. And I've seen hundreds of cases just like myself. If I hit the jackpot tomorrow and won $100 million, I would still finish school and continue to practice and treat patients, that's how positive and rewarding my own experience has been.

Oh, and no homo.

[Moen]

It's not that I don't believe you, because I do, but there is no scientific proof of it so far. "Placebo" is very real, if people are convinced they are helped by something, then they'll also feel that way. Power of the mind.

I'm a man of science so I'll only ever be convinced when there is some kind of (objective) proof. Except for philosophical questions which are of course outside the realm of science entirely.

[Big Chiro Flex]

It's not that I don't believe you, because I do, but there is no scientific proof of it so far. "Placebo" is very real, if people are convinced they are helped by something, then they'll also feel that way. Power of the mind.

I'm a man of science so I'll only ever be convinced when there is some kind of (objective) proof. Except for philosophical questions which are of course outside the realm of science entirely.

There is some, but I agree I wish there was more. Research is not my passion, treating patients is. But guaranteed within the next 5 years there will be a surge. They're doing some cool stuff analyzing nerve conduction velocities and their association with vertebral subluxations and it's role in nerve interference. Quantifying the data has been the hardest part here AKA Nerves are a bitch to study!

There's also a massive evidence-based movement occurring at the chiropractic college level. Like I said, within 5 years there will be much more out there.

[Moen]

Well if that material proves me and all of the others wrong, I'll be the first to admit. I'd have no problem with that 

[RadOncDoc]

Also add: why does the government's accrediting agencies recognize the chiropractic schools in the US as They do? They don't throw out that "primary health care physician" title to just anybody.

Also: why does every major health insurance company reimburse for chiropractic treatment?

Also: I'd like the exact locations of every poster in this thread 

I gotta back you guys up here. I think it's unfair to call all chiros "quacks." I'm an MD, and I've known many chiros including my current gf, and they were all quite reasonable and well-trained professionals. To be sure, the chiros claiming that adjustments can treat asthma, diabetes, etc. draw skepticism from MDs. But there is medical literature supporting the use of chiropractory in, for example, lower back pain. In fact, I was taught in medical school that referral to a chiro was a reasonable treatment option for lower back pain supported by randomized studies.  Also, many chiros function more like PAs for MDs anyway. My gf basically does all the postop visits and follow ups for an orthopedic surgeon. 

[Big Chiro Flex]

I gotta back you guys up here. I think it's unfair to call all chiros "quacks." I'm an MD, and I've known many chiros including my current gf, and they were all quite reasonable and well-trained professionals. To be sure, the chiros claiming that adjustments can treat asthma, diabetes, etc. draw skepticism from MDs. But there is medical literature supporting the use of chiropractory in, for example, lower back pain. In fact, I was taught in medical school that referral to a chiro was a reasonable treatment option for lower back pain supported by randomized studies.  Also, many chiros function more like PAs for MDs anyway. My gf basically does all the postop visits and follow ups for an orthopedic surgeon. 

Good post Doc

[Krankenstein]

It's not that I don't believe you, because I do, but there is no scientific proof of it so far. "Placebo" is very real, if people are convinced they are helped by something, then they'll also feel that way. Power of the mind.

I'm a man of science so I'll only ever be convinced when there is some kind of (objective) proof. Except for philosophical questions which are of course outside the realm of science entirely.

The placebo effect has been shown to be evident in the allopathic arena of medicine.  The is objective proof that chiropractic is beneficial.  There has been objective proof that certain medications cause more harm than good.  Does that mean that all medicine is bad?

You talk to a few orthopoedic surgeons who dislike chiropractic.  I wasn't aware that orthopoedic surgeons were the top of the food chain in the MD world.  How about a neurosurgeon who supports chiropractic care?  A orthopoedic surgeons job is the cut someone open.  Plain and simple.  Bottom line.  Black and white.  So, if there is something that will take money out of their pocket, would it not stand to reason they would not be in favor of it?  Thats like Volkswagon supporting Delta Airlines.

There is stuff out there that proves you wrong.  There is stuff that supports what you say (a few things, but not a lot).  The bottom line is you are making a blanket statement that no matter what we do, what we say, what good we do that you will consider us quacks.  You take the opinion of some orthopoedic surgeons and dont bother to research things on your own.  

So many will say "I know this guy who's head exploded after an adjustment" kind of thing.  Yes, there are risks.  A competent doctor will explain the risks and do what they can to avoid those risks.  Shall I pull up the stories of orthopoedic surgeons operating on the wrong bodypart?  In the last few years they actually have had to make the patients take a sharpie pen and write on the part that was to be operated on.  WOW.  Does anyone bother to read the patients history/chart??

Here is some info for you.  Are these guys quacks?

...some researchers and patient safety experts say the problem of wrong-site surgery has not improved and may be getting worse, although spotty reporting makes conclusions difficult. Based on state data, Joint Commission officials estimate that wrong-site surgery occurs 40 times a week in U.S. hospitals and clinics. Last year 93 cases were reported to the accrediting organization, compared with 49 in 2004. Reporting to the commission is voluntary and confidential -- to encourage doctors and hospitals to come forward and to make improvements, officials say. About half the states, including Virginia, do not require reporting. In two states that track and intensively study these errors, 48 cases were reported in Minnesota last year, up from 44 in 2009; Pennsylvania has averaged about 64 cases for the past few years.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2011/june/21/wrong-site-surgery-errors.aspx

RonOncDoc:
I am fully behind you.  The ones who make the outlandish claims are the ones I despise.  I would love to burn their offices to the ground.  The ones who brow beat the prospective patients into coughing up thousands, upon thousands of dollars for pre-paid care.  I give my patients the same care plans that MD's do when referring to a PT.  We treat for 4 - 6 weeks, then re-evaluate.  I have referred patients to orthopoedic docs, pain management docs, etc.  They refer to me when someone has come to them without trying conservative treatment.  Not one has said a bad word about me.  

[lovemonkey]

I've seen some miracles in my docs office man. Legitimately, amazing things. If the patients truly were "faking it", they deserve Oscars.

I myself got into the profession because of my remarkable experience with it when I got my first adjustment at age 19. I told myself right there that if I wanted to help people in my life,  this was what I NEEDED to do. I need to share this with people. And I've seen hundreds of cases just like myself. If I hit the jackpot tomorrow and won $100 million, I would still finish school and continue to practice and treat patients, that's how positive and rewarding my own experience has been.

Oh, and no homo.

You and Moen already talked about it but come on, you should know better than this. Anecdotes are absolutely worthless when it comes to evidence-based medicine. Some people swear that their cancer was cured with homeopathic remedies, would you tell them to ignore all scientific evidence and become homeopaths themselves? People can believe all kinds of stuff.

There is some, but I agree I wish there was more. Research is not my passion, treating patients is. But guaranteed within the next 5 years there will be a surge. They're doing some cool stuff analyzing nerve conduction velocities and their association with vertebral subluxations and it's role in nerve interference. Quantifying the data has been the hardest part here AKA Nerves are a bitch to study!

There's also a massive evidence-based movement occurring at the chiropractic college level. Like I said, within 5 years there will be much more out there.

And what if those studies reveal that chiropractics is not any better than placebo treament? The most well done and rigorous studies done so far have already shown that that is pretty much the case. If I'm not mistaken, the U.S government spends several hundred million dollars each year on A.M research and a substantial part of it has been used for chiropractics and homeopathy. Maybe more time, money and energy needs to be spent conducting these studies? But when is it really time to face up to the facts?

What kind of scientific evidence would you find satisfactory to change your beliefs in the career path you've chosen?

There is verifiable data to support neural interference caused by vertebral subluxations though?

Not that I've read, if we're talking about "chiropractic subluxations" that is. Chiropractors haven't even agreed among themselves exactly what a "subluxation" really is. I'd actually be curios if one of you chiro's could describe in your own words what a subluxation really is, the definition you'd use to diagnose a patient.

[lovemonkey]

I gotta back you guys up here. I think it's unfair to call all chiros "quacks." I'm an MD, and I've known many chiros including my current gf, and they were all quite reasonable and well-trained professionals. To be sure, the chiros claiming that adjustments can treat asthma, diabetes, etc. draw skepticism from MDs. But there is medical literature supporting the use of chiropractory in, for example, lower back pain. In fact, I was taught in medical school that referral to a chiro was a reasonable treatment option for lower back pain supported by randomized studies.  Also, many chiros function more like PAs for MDs anyway. My gf basically does all the postop visits and follow ups for an orthopedic surgeon. 

My beef with chiro's is that the large majority of them won't stop there and act within what the scientific method tells them that they should, instead they go on about "subluxations", upper back pain, neck pain etcetc. If they focused on the stuff that has been proven to work with a sound scientific philosophy behind it, I would not call them quacks.

But just because they happen to be able to somewhat treat/cure a certain condition doesn't mean they're not quacks.

The main ingredient in aspirin came from traditional herbal medicine, but that doesn't mean that most herbal medicine people aren't quacks.

[Big Chiro Flex]

You and Moen already talked about it but come on, you should know better than this. Anecdotes are absolutely worthless when it comes to evidence-based medicine. Some people swear that their cancer was cured with homeopathic remedies, would you tell them to ignore all scientific evidence and become homeopaths themselves? People can believe all kinds of stuff.

read the book Cancer Killers by Dr. Majors and tell me what you think. I also understand what you're saying, but there is another side to the argument as well that IMO is equally as relevant

And what if those studies reveal that chiropractics is not any better than placebo treament? The most well done and rigorous studies done so far have already shown that that is pretty much the case. If I'm not mistaken, the U.S government spends several hundred million dollars each year on A.M research and a substantial part of it has been used for chiropractics and homeopathy. Maybe more time, money and energy needs to be spent conducting these studies? But when is it really time to face up to the facts?

this is simply not true, this is much of our own opinion projected here, which you are entititled to. The government just issued another multi million dollar grant to my school to publish more literature this year. Not that this justifies our profession, but it kind of does in the sense that they are throwing money at us to put this out there, begging us for residencies in their VA programs, along with everything else I mentioned above.

What kind of scientific evidence would you find satisfactory to change your beliefs in the career path you've chosen?

when I learn that chiropractic is harmful, or that it does nothing, I would throw in the towel. So far, that couldn't be farther from the truth. I live this stuff, I see the good it does every single day, the kids who get helped, the athletes. Its an overwhelming amount of positive feedback.  My doc back home who has a ridiculously busy practice has MDs coming in all the time asking to shadow him and Learn what he does, because they dont understand why their patients are responding better under chiropractic care instead and getting off their meds. Some docs become enraged when their egos start to take a hit, but most MDs are blown away and have a newfound respect when they learn what we actually do, and the referrals come pouring in.

Not that I've read, if we're talking about "chiropractic subluxations" that is. Chiropractors haven't even agreed among themselves exactly what a "subluxation" really is. I'd actually be curios if one of you chiro's could describe in your own words what a subluxation really is, the definition you'd use to diagnose a patient.

this is very overblown. There is some minor disagreement over semantics, but the majority of DCs agree on it. Vertebral subluxation is when a vertebrae has moved from its proper juxtaposition with the segment above, the segment below, or both, which impinges on the spinal nerve, and interferes with the transmission of mental impulses.  This can be verified through motion palpation, which can be measured with a whole slew of instruments, through surface neurocalometer readings (TyTron), through x-ray, the list goes on.  The difference in a subluxation free joint and a subluxation joint is night and day bro, I can take somebody with zero experience and teach them this in 10 mins if I have a body in front of me. Remember, your CNS controls everything. Interfere with its proper function, and your health will be affected

what is your profession bro?

[Big Chiro Flex]

My beef with chiro's is that the large majority of them won't stop there and act within what the scientific method tells them that they should, instead they go on about "subluxations", upper back pain, neck pain etcetc. If they focused on the stuff that has been proven to work with a sound scientific philosophy behind it, I would not call them quacks.

But just because they happen to be able to somewhat treat/cure a certain condition doesn't mean they're not quacks.

The main ingredient in aspirin came from traditional herbal medicine, but that doesn't mean that most herbal medicine people aren't quacks.

BINGO

This is what it largely comes down to. You have a different philosophy regarding health care than I do. You have been taught By the medical community What your approach to health should be. And that is fine, to each his own. But in my health care model, I'm seeing lives changed for the better every single day, people getting off their meds, feeling better, improving their health in an inexpensive, non invasive, remarkably safe manner.

Food for thought: the next time you have a headache and take some aspirin, ask yourself, "is my body deficient in aspirin today?" Is that why you take it? That should fix the problem right? Or maybe, it's just masking the symptoms?

Disclaimer: I'm not anti-medicine at all, but I think there are often times, better routes to optimal health. Do you know how many times we've had patients come in for their first visit and been on a laundry list of meds, half of which are prescribed to treat symptoms from other drugs, often times certain drugs even have OPPOSING actions in the body. It's crazy man...I see it all the time. These people aren't healthy.

[Raymondo]

This post is so absurd it almost doesn't warrant a response.  The same type of bro-logic as saying "13 minute window post workout or you'll go catabolic."  

Last i checked, America was ranked the 28th "healthiest" (or sickest) industrialized nation on earth.  Can you even name 28 other countries? That number is astounding.  It seems the current medical model doesn't seem to be working so well.  We are sicker than ever as a society, and it is getting worse each year.

I'm sure you have educated yourself on the history of chiropractic and the massive lawsuit that the American Medical Association LOST to the chiropractic profession when they attempted to sabotage our public image in an attempt to monopolize the healthcare system in America many years ago.  You know this story, yes?

Every pro sports team in America has a DC on staff. Most (if not all) top 10 Olympians receive regular care.  30 million Americans each year receive care. Are these people all brainwashed? Adding to krank's list, Vince Taylor volunteered for free to do a 1 day seminar at my school, advocating how chiropractic saved his career. I talked with the guy for 30 mins over a cup of coffee.  Aaron Roger's (GB Packers) dad is a DC, hes another huge proponent.  As is Michael Jordan, Evander Holyfield, Tiger Woods, the list goes on....Are these people all brainwashed?

Let's keep pumping America full of Lipitor, Prozac, and Adderall...this has to be the key to optimal health, right?

You guys sound like a cult.

Are you scientologists?