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Author Topic: form vs. load  (Read 888 times)
dj181
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« on: August 19, 2012, 09:45:58 AM »

which is more important and why?

i'll go with load, just as long as one's form is not absolutely horrendous
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chaos
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« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2012, 11:40:09 AM »

Depends on your goal.
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« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2012, 11:44:25 AM »

which is more important and why?

i'll go with load, just as long as one's form is not absolutely horrendous
how about a combination of the two progressively improve both form and function as you become acclimated to the training state. Grin Grin Grin


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jpm101
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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2012, 08:16:27 AM »

I agree with dkj181. The value of cheating movements can never be underestimated.  And you can perform any cheating exercise within good form, once the basic of cheating is fully understood.  Good Luck.
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dj181
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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2012, 08:24:06 AM »

I agree with dkj181. The value of cheating movements can never be underestimated.  And you can perform any cheating exercise within good form, once the basic of cheating is fully understood.  Good Luck.

like AJ used to say... "cheat to make the exercise harder, not easier"

and very nice girl funk Tongue were you able to get her digits? Grin
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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2012, 08:49:58 AM »

dj181;  Nice Art Jones quote.

 Seen lots of guy switch from strict or semi strict BB curls, to cheat curls, with a almost over night boost to the biceps size & strength.Same with lateral raises DB flys, rows, presses, etc. Want shoulder mass and power, than try jerk or push presses.

Cheats do not apply to squats or DL's, because of the inline position of both those movements. Other than that, take your pick of exercise . Good Luck.
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dj181
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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2012, 09:22:02 AM »

dj181;  Nice Art Jones quote.

 Seen lots of guy switch from strict or semi strict BB curls, to cheat curls, with a almost over night boost to the biceps size & strength.Same with lateral raises DB flys, rows, presses, etc. Want shoulder mass and power, than try jerk or push presses.

Cheats do not apply to squats or DL's, because of the inline position of both those movements. Other than that, take your pick of exercise . Good Luck.

so would you advise to follow AJ's protocol on curls and presses?

his basic protocol was something like this.. take a barbell that you can curl for 6 or 7 good reps (no cheating here) and then after you complete those 6 or 7 reps til failure proceed to cheat out 3 more reps (cheating just enough to complete those final 3 reps) making them brutally hard


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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2012, 09:26:03 AM »

so would you advise to follow AJ's protocol on curls and presses?

his basic protocol was something like this.. take a barbell that you can curl for 6 or 7 good reps (no cheating here) and then after you complete those 6 or 7 reps til failure proceed to cheat out 3 more reps (cheating just enough to complete those final 3 reps) making them brutally hard



I like rest pause myself..
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dj181
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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2012, 09:36:19 AM »

I like rest pause myself..

do you mean Mentzer style rest-pause?

which is a 1 max rep, rest 10 seconds then do it again, and then lighten the load by 10% and do another 1 rep max after a 10 sec rest, and then finish off with a final 1 rep max after a 15 second rest-pause

it bascially ends up being 4 one rep maxes
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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2012, 10:31:53 AM »

do you mean Mentzer style rest-pause?

which is a 1 max rep, rest 10 seconds then do it again, and then lighten the load by 10% and do another 1 rep max after a 10 sec rest, and then finish off with a final 1 rep max after a 15 second rest-pause

it bascially ends up being 4 one rep maxes
well i bring a set to failure ...pause about 5-10 secounds( do not really know i go by instinct and feel) then another rep(or 2 if i can) and do this about 3 times. I suppose itīs rest/pause...cheating...and instinctive training...all in one !!
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dj181
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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2012, 10:37:37 AM »

well i bring a set to failure ...pause about 5-10 secounds( do not really know i go by instinct and feel) then another rep(or 2 if i can) and do this about 3 times. I suppose itīs rest/pause...cheating...and instinctive training...all in one !!

yep, that's rest-pause, but just not Mentzer style rest-pause Cool

funny thing is, i'm definately an intensity over volume kinda guy, but i really believe that sometimes some of these methods are just too damn intense, and that best results will come just by training til failure
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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2012, 08:28:37 PM »

 As dj181 stated, Mentzer's version is Mentzers version, following his thread of exercise theory. Seems he uses the drop weight idea for each rep, adjusting for a max effort every rep. With very limited reps in a set. Tough CNS training also.

Been doing the Rest/Pause (could have named it Halt & Go just as well) for years, on and off. Productive method. The classic version is a pause of 10 to 12 seconds between each rep. For example, if you can do 200lbs for 5 fairly good rep's, than that would be the general gauge of the weight used for the bench press, with R/P. You keep the same 200lbs on the bar throughout the whole set. The surprise is that you may be doing 9 or10 reps with that 200 rather than the usually 5 rep's after the set is completed. The next workout, the reps may jump up to 12 or more with that same 200. Will need a good watch or stopwatch. We usually will have someone watching the clock , and either yell or clap their hands when the next rep is due (10-12 seconds). 3 sets seems to be the max on something like R/P, though some may do 5 sets....that should be the limit on this very focused way to train. And perhaps only once or twice a week.

R/P works extremely well with squats, Dl's , cleans and other big boy compound exercises.

Art Jones preferred  to do one, and at the most, two sets of any exercise.  His slow negative curl grip chins (believe from 20 to 30 seconds for the negative close grip chin...no positive chin was included..I might be wrong on that, it may be longer negative time), SS'ed with the BB curl (one set each), was all that would be required if a person was only using the standard workout equipment. You would be going to failure on each exercise, that was a given, with cheats included with the BB curls. If only doing one set, to extreme failure, once or at the very most twice a week, than perhaps failure  may be an option for some. Personal view is the failure is never sought, or needed, in most any workouts. But there are exceptions if trying for a personal best/testing strength, etc; as PL'ers and Olympic lifters have been known to do. But again, not that often. Good Luck.
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dj181
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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2012, 04:09:54 AM »

good post jpm

in fact AJ advised barbell curls til failure and then immediately perform close-grip palms-up pulldowns til failure, 2 cycles of this to be practiced 3 times a week Shocked Shocked Shocked

also, AJ sometimes advised 3 sets til failure using the 10/8/6 protocol increasing the weight each set to stay within the guide rep range

IMO 2 sets til failure with a 10/6 rep guideline practiced twice weekly gives best results

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