Author Topic: In a world without a "GOD".  (Read 32657 times)

syntaxmachine

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2687
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #75 on: August 19, 2012, 07:47:26 PM »
good post.

lot of "atheists" decrying god and religion in one breath, only to turn around and loudly uphold christian morals with the next.

also lol @ "we don't need religion anymore, science tells us the truth!!"

epic still believing in truth, the core of all christianity ::)

1. What is a "christian moral"? Do you mean a moral behavior that originated with Christianity or one that somehow only makes sense if Christianity is true? If the former, the behavior can be upheld by atheists regardless of its origins (its origin shouldn't matter if it is a worthy practice), and I don't think the latter describes anything at all. In other words, there isn't any moral behavior a Christian can do that an atheist can't, and thus calling this or that behavior "Christian" doesn't make a lot of sense.

2. Truth is a function of language and attaches to statements, or propositions (the things expressed by sentences). It is an object of study for philosophers and linguists. While there are several competing theories on its precise nature, none of them have anything whatsoever to do with religion, and especially not Christianity. You must be using some bastardized version of the technical term to suppose it is somehow relevant to Christianity.

Science is a religion, I hope this helps.  :-\

3. Most atheists will object to this claim but I think it has a kernel of truth: theories are theories, whether they be religious or scientific. They attempt to organize and explain our observations and experiences and meld them into some sort of cohesive model of the world. The difference is that the class of theories we call religions have to date offered bunk explanations of pretty much every empirical phenomena imaginable and have zero predictive efficacy. And this is actually not that surprising, given that they were some of the species' earliest attempts at theorizing. I would have made even shittier theories if I were stuck in that period with that little knowledge of the world.

cephissus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7599
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #76 on: August 19, 2012, 08:01:15 PM »
1. What is a "christian moral"? Do you mean a moral behavior that originated with Christianity or one that somehow only makes sense if Christianity is true? If the former, the behavior can be upheld by atheists regardless of its origins (its origin shouldn't matter if it is a worthy practice), and I don't think the latter describes anything at all. In other words, there isn't any moral behavior a Christian can do that an atheist can't, and thus calling this or that behavior "Christian" doesn't make a lot of sense.

Right, I guess then we shouldn't say Japan is influenced by American culture?  After all, the Japanese can play rock music, buy apple electronics, and hit baseballs just as any American can... doesn't make much sense to call these things American, then.

Quote
2. Truth is a function of language and attaches to statements, or propositions (the things expressed by sentences). It is an object of study for philosophers and linguists. While there are several competing theories on its precise nature, none of them have anything whatsoever to do with religion, and especially not Christianity. You must be using some bastardized version of the technical term to suppose it is somehow relevant to Christianity.

I'm still struggling with this issue personally, but "Truth" in the popular sense is a superstition.  There's no transcendental all-seeing eye that sees nothing but "ding an sich."  This is a core issue in Christian thought, so LOL @ this not having "anything whatsoever to do with religion."  But whatever, if you want to act like predicate logic is the father of truth, go right ahead.

Quote
3. Most atheists will object to this claim but I think it has a kernel of truth: theories are theories, whether they be religious or scientific. They attempt to organize and explain our observations and experiences and meld them into some sort of cohesive model of the world. The difference is that the class of theories we call religions have to date offered bunk explanations of pretty much every empirical phenomena imaginable and have zero predictive efficacy. What else would one expect from our earliest theories?

I completely agree.  Well written.  And in a thousand years, if humans are still kicking around, no doubt someone will be having a hearty LOL at many of the precious "universal truths" that we have baptized "scientifically proven" as they browse through a history book.

sync pulse

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5707
  • Only be sure always to call it please, 'research'
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #77 on: August 19, 2012, 08:32:37 PM »
It's a mistaken belief that science dictates a non-existence of God...It has been the fundamentalist's mistaken notion of this and their strident rancor on this point that has turned so many against Christianity...

In other words it is the fundamentalists themselves that have given rise to the hostility against Belief.

Parker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 53475
  • He Sees The Stormy Anger Of The World
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #78 on: August 19, 2012, 08:48:30 PM »
It's a mistaken belief that science dictates a non-existence of God...It has been the fundamentalist's mistaken notion of this and their strident rancor on this point that has turned so many against Christianity...

In other words it is the fundamentalists themselves that have given rise to the hostility against Belief.

As it was said that 9/11 was one of the reasons why many American Christians converted to Islam.

syntaxmachine

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2687
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #79 on: August 19, 2012, 09:14:58 PM »

Right, I guess then we shouldn't say Japan is influenced by American culture?  After all, the Japanese can play rock music, buy apple electronics, and hit baseballs just as any American can... doesn't make much sense to call these things American, then.


1. I didn't know exactly what you meant by "christian morals" and so had to explore a couple of possibilities. You said "LOL" at atheists doubting Christianity's truth and subsequently "upholding" Christian morals. I said that if by "christian morals" you mean moral ideas originating in Christianity, that it is still perfectly consistent for an atheist to uphold them, given they don't depend on Christianity being true. A theory can have a good idea one can adopt without endorsing the whole theory.

2. My point about calling certain morals "christian morals" was in the context of the other possibility regarding what you may have meant, which is that "christian morals" are those that it only makes sense to practice if Christianity is true. In other words, these would be Christian-specific morals that nobody else would adhere to. I denied that there are such things because I think the moral ideas of Christianity (e.g., the Golden Rule) were co-opted by it. If that is right, then they are not "christian morals" but broad, possibly universal morals that Christianity adopted, meaning it doesn't make sense to call them "Christian."

3. Your baseball analogy communicates the message that certain morals originated with Christianity and that it thus makes sense to call them "Christian." I agree that this would make sense, but deny that there actually are any morals that are like this. Maybe Christianity endorsed certain ideas and thus helped make them more prevalent in Western culture, but that just means Christianity played an important role in the history of those ideas (something we can thank Christianity for), not that the ideas themselves are "Christian."

Can you give me an idea of what you mean by a Christian moral?

syntaxmachine

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2687
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #80 on: August 19, 2012, 10:02:06 PM »

I'm still struggling with this issue personally, but "Truth" in the popular sense is a superstition.  There's no transcendental all-seeing eye that sees nothing but "ding an sich."  This is a core issue in Christian thought, so LOL @ this not having "anything whatsoever to do with religion."  But whatever, if you want to act like predicate logic is the father of truth, go right ahead.


Perhaps there is something being called "truth" at the center of debate in Christian thought, but it seems to mean everything and nothing at the same time. I have found the proposed concepts to be either mumbo jumbo (Jesus is Truth, experiencing God is Truth, or otherwise Truth is an indefinable, magical property that unites Christians despite differences of opinion) or messy and borderline meaningless amalgamations of more clear philosophical concepts (reality, experience, representation).

That's why I say truth has nothing in particular to do with Christianity: I think the legitimate phenomenon referred to by the word is captured by one of the philosophical theories about its being a part of language, not metaphysics like the Christian concepts seem to entail. I reached the conclusion by examining the Christian concepts and seeing their content exhausted by other, more clear ideas in metaphysics, plus the obvious and intuitive fact that truth has everything to do with language, something the Christian concepts seem to ignore.

Are you a Christian and do you think one of the Christian conceptions of Truth makes sense?

Parker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 53475
  • He Sees The Stormy Anger Of The World
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #81 on: August 19, 2012, 10:31:03 PM »
religion is a joke..religion hijacked humanity.
No, humanity has hijacked religion

from Parabola Magazine, Winter 2005, topic "Fundamentalism"
interview with Huston Smith
"We must recognize 'hijacked religion'. Religion is the sitting duck, if I may mix my metaphors, because the primary commitment of politicians is not to religion, but te use of religion for political purposes. What really breeds violence is political differences. We live in a potically divided world in which each half shouts: 'We are are on God's side' the flp side of that is believing your opponents are the devil, the evil axis, the empire of evil. The rhetoric is exactly the same. The vicious circle of religious or political blame games leads to dehumanizing of entire peoples, when, in fact, authentic religion is the search for the deeply real is the greatest humanizing force we have."

cephissus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7599
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #82 on: August 19, 2012, 10:44:12 PM »
Quote
3. Your baseball analogy communicates the message that certain morals originated with Christianity and that it thus makes sense to call them "Christian." I agree that this would make sense, but deny that there actually are any morals that are like this. Maybe Christianity endorsed certain ideas and thus helped make them more prevalent in Western culture, but that just means Christianity played an important role in the history of those ideas (something we can thank Christianity for), not that the ideas themselves are "Christian."

It did just this.  And to say the ideas themselves aren't Christian, at this point, is like saying David isn't Michelangelo's sculpture, just a rock.

Quote
Are you a Christian and do you think one of the Christian conceptions of Truth makes sense?

Not at all, on either count.  "Truth" is a metaphysical concept, and metaphysics is nonsense.  The basic point of my original post was that the same "atheists" who moan so loudly about the falsity of Christian beliefs are still usually proponents of Christian morals (meaning the fundamental rules for behavior arising from Christian valuations) and pursue "the truth" just as rabidly as their religious counterparts.

As Nietzsche explained, literal belief in the Bible and the Christian God is dead; what remains is the Christian method of evaluating the world -- of saying what is good, and what is bad.  In forums of all types and in all places, "anti-religious" people like to point out how stupid you have to be to believe in God at this point, the scientific impossibility of various stories in the bible, etc.  The irony is that, after the debate is over, both sides go home to lead the exact same sort of life.  Whether Christian valuation is "good" ::) or not, it's amusing...

Radical Plato

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12879
  • Rhetoric is the art of ruling the minds of men.
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #83 on: August 19, 2012, 10:51:32 PM »
Einstein expressed his skepticism regarding an anthropomorphic deity, often describing it as "naïve" and "childlike". He stated, "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I feel also not able to imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. My views are near those of Spinoza: admiration for the beauty of and belief in the logical simplicity of the order which we can grasp humbly and only imperfectly. I believe that we have to content ourselves with our imperfect knowledge and understanding and treat values and moral obligations as a purely human problem—the most important of all human problems. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.

The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve." And to Eric Gutkind he wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.

I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.

Your question [about God] is the most difficult in the world. It is not a question I can answer simply with yes or no. I am not an Atheist. I do not know if I can define myself as a Pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. May I not reply with a parable? The human mind, no matter how highly trained, cannot grasp the universe. We are in the position of a little child, entering a huge library whose walls are covered to the ceiling with books in many different tongues. The child knows that someone must have written those books. It does not know who or how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child notes a definite plan in the arrangement of the books, a mysterious order, which it does not comprehend, but only dimly suspects. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of the human mind, even the greatest and most cultured, toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged, obeying certain laws, but we understand the laws only dimly. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that sways the constellations.
V

freespirit

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9535
  • Revolt!
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #84 on: August 20, 2012, 12:01:33 AM »
.

The Abdominal Snoman

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 23503
  • DON'T BE A TRAITOR TO YOUR TRIBE
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #85 on: August 20, 2012, 12:54:52 AM »

PJim

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3951
  • Strike another match, go start anew
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #86 on: August 20, 2012, 03:19:23 AM »
There's nothing more depressing than the idea that you need a big judgemental surveillance camera in the sky to behave semi-decent.

YngiweRhoads

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4267
  • Shreddin'
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #87 on: August 20, 2012, 03:44:50 AM »
There's nothing more depressing than the idea that you need a big judgemental surveillance camera in the sky to behave semi-decent.

Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. Doesn't reflect well on the individuals who only 'follow the rules' for fear of being spanked.

I fully agree with Einstein regarding the notion of an Anthropomorphic Deity. It's absurd.
6

PJim

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3951
  • Strike another match, go start anew
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #88 on: August 20, 2012, 03:51:01 AM »
Surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet. Doesn't reflect well on the individuals who only 'follow the rules' for fear of being spanked.

I fully agree with Einstein regarding the notion of an Anthropomorphic Deity. It's absurd.

I find it incredible that people also need to be rewarded for every damned thing they do in life. There's always got to be a carrot on a stick for cretins to chase.

da_vinci

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
  • Cry me a river
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #89 on: August 20, 2012, 04:06:50 AM »
Science is a religion, I hope this helps.  :-\

Read the definition of "religion" before talking nonsense like this.

King Shizzo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 35039
  • Ron crowned me King because I always deliver.
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #90 on: August 20, 2012, 04:13:23 AM »
.
That Carlin quote has always nailed it for me.  It's supposed to be funny, but it ends up being dead on.  Paints the picture of god as a horrible father, who waits for his children to misbehave so he can beat their asses.  All with a smile on his face.

Radical Plato

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 12879
  • Rhetoric is the art of ruling the minds of men.
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #91 on: August 20, 2012, 04:30:38 AM »
Read the definition of "religion" before talking nonsense like this.
The word religion can be used metaphorically, like "shopping is the new religion" in this sense it is defined as a cause, principle, system of tenets held with ardor, devotion, conscientiousness and faith, a value held to be of supreme importance, or A quality, condition, custom, or thing inspiring zealous devotion, conscientious maintenance, and cherishing.
V

Ronnie Rep

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10117
  • Getbig!
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #92 on: August 20, 2012, 05:35:16 AM »
No, the bulk of the population only believes in God when it suits them to do so. People in general are too busy to let god or the belief in god occupy their time.


Agree 100%! As Jessie Ventura once said" God is a tool for the weak and the ignorant."

da_vinci

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
  • Cry me a river
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2012, 05:49:20 AM »
The word religion can be used metaphorically, like "shopping is the new religion" in this sense it is defined as a cause, principle, system of tenets held with ardor, devotion, conscientiousness and faith, a value held to be of supreme importance, or A quality, condition, custom, or thing inspiring zealous devotion, conscientious maintenance, and cherishing.

My reply would very simple: Science is POSITIVE, i.e. - does not have an "object" to believe in.

Parker

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 53475
  • He Sees The Stormy Anger Of The World
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #94 on: August 20, 2012, 06:03:22 AM »
My reply would very simple: Science is POSITIVE, i.e. - does not have an "object" to believe in.
Sure they do, it's "I am right and you are wrong."

one could say it's the truth, and one uses the scientific method to do so, and then when said "truth" is proven or found, which many times later on it's found out that that it wasn't true, it is heralded like the Gospel and scientists and professors become the messengers, the caliphs, the pastors, the monks, the preachers, the bishops, the archbishops...

Same effing deal, human beings want to worship something---whether it be a golden calf, a rock, a supernatural being, or "science". And each of these things must define man, man always sticks himself into the equation, "where do I exist, what does mean for me, how does this affect me?"

the trainer

  • Guest
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #95 on: August 20, 2012, 06:15:57 AM »
What would you do if humans found out that there was no god, no afterlife, etc.... Would you be tempted to sin?  Steal, cheat, murder etc....?  Would the Police /government matter anymore?  Would there be civil wars in every major country?  There is a good that comes from religion.

You are all a bunch of evil sinners, in world without a god you would continue to be what you are a bunch of sinners, but every time you jerk off to kai green and eat a grapefruit remember god is watching you.

da_vinci

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5289
  • Cry me a river
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #96 on: August 20, 2012, 06:54:21 AM »
Sure they do, it's "I am right and you are wrong."

one could say it's the truth, and one uses the scientific method to do so, and then when said "truth" is proven or found, which many times later on it's found out that that it wasn't true, it is heralded like the Gospel and scientists and professors become the messengers, the caliphs, the pastors, the monks, the preachers, the bishops, the archbishops...

Same effing deal, human beings want to worship something---whether it be a golden calf, a rock, a supernatural being, or "science". And each of these things must define man, man always sticks himself into the equation, "where do I exist, what does mean for me, how does this affect me?"

Have you any other methid to suggest, other than scientific, to assess the reality surrounding us in a more clear way?

Have you seen two scientists fighting each other due to argument of how many atoms are in the glass of water, instead of using science to find it out?

Scientists have NO trouble changing their viewpoint if new data is available. while religious nuts have a grip of steel on these from thousands years ago and insists that's the ONLY and unquestionable truth.

Necrosis

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9910
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #97 on: August 20, 2012, 07:53:47 AM »
The truth is that nobody knows for sure.  If we knew for a fact that nothing awaited us after death, then there would be total global anarchy.  The new "wild west" if you will.

So you are saying the only thing keeping you from raping and killing is a belief in god? is that correct?

El Diablo Blanco

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 31841
  • Nom Nom Nom Nom
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #98 on: August 20, 2012, 07:56:32 AM »
A world without a God would allow people to think more freely.  It would allow for sciences to excel and speed up the destruction of our earth.

King Shizzo

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 35039
  • Ron crowned me King because I always deliver.
Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #99 on: August 20, 2012, 08:00:27 AM »
So you are saying the only thing keeping you from raping and killing is a belief in god? is that correct?
No.  I don't believe in the bible version of god.  I am saying that there would be no concept of right or wrong anymore.  Morals?  gone.