Author Topic: In a world without a "GOD".  (Read 29925 times)

OTHstrong

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #225 on: August 21, 2012, 04:57:35 PM »
You know you love them when you care about their wellbeing, when you express this concern through kind and supportive actions, by desiring good outcomes for them.  You know you hate them when you want to see them all dead either by your own hand or someone elses.  Stop confusing the issue, it isn't hard to know when people love something.  People gravitate to the things they love, if people love chocolate, they eat it regularly, if they don't love chocolate, they avoid it.  I know for some God Botherers they have trouble with simple logic like this, but for normal people, it's not too hard too work out.
A complete stranger can do this too.

Parker

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #226 on: August 21, 2012, 04:57:55 PM »
You know you love them when you care about their wellbeing, when you express this concern through kind and supportive actions, by desiring good outcomes for them.  You know you hate them when you want to see them all dead either by your own hand or someone elses.  Stop confusing the issue, it isn't hard to know when people love something.  People gravitate to the things they love, if people love chocolate, they eat it regularly, if they don't love chocolate, they avoid it.  I know for some God Botherers they have trouble with simple logic like this, but for normal people, it's not too hard too work out.
Listen to what KRS-One says in the beginning and the whole song, And then read your chocolate comment. Too many people overuse the word love---in actuality it really means they really "like" something. Love should be reserved for something higher, not chocolate, not a car, not a piece of jewelry, not a house, nor shoes.
[/youtube]


NarcissisticDeity

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #227 on: August 21, 2012, 05:02:11 PM »
I agree, but you can not prove you love someone to someone else. So I say to you you only think you love them you don`t really know right

The only ones I need to ' prove ' it to is them. and you can prove it to them with your actions. But you can say that I only think I love them but I don't really know it doesn't change the fact.

And I fail to see what this has to do belief in a deity  ???

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #228 on: August 21, 2012, 05:06:08 PM »
I don't feel you are lying , I feel you really do believe you have a personal relationship with Jesus but I also feel you deluded yourself into feeling this way. Your personal experiences aren't proof of God.

You think being an Atheist is cool? I grew up with a born-again Christian mother and a father who was Catholic trust me it wasn't cool telling these people I'm an Atheist. Most of my large family are believers with me being the black sheep

on GetBig you may be the minority but in life you're among the majority , especially considering like 80% of the US consider themselves Christians. You seem like a nice guy and I don't want to be overtly rude to you but when push comes to shove I can't take people seriously when say they have a personal relationship with God , I believe in a persons right to practice any religion he wants my problem with Christians is them trying to constantly force their position on the rest of society , this I find very unacceptable and among my main problems with believers.

Absolutely my experiences are proof of God.  I already know the vast majority of cliched responses, generalizations and standard atheist replies; in addition, I'm versed in the apologetic defenses as well so we can skip all that.  In short, my experiences are validated by the body of believers who've also experienced the risen Christ.  Your refusal to have an experience of your own leaves you handicapped and deluded.  I hate to say it like that, but that's how you've chosen to phrase things so hopefully that resonates with you better. 

I have no doubt being raised in household of believers was very difficult.  I'm guessing your family was unable to provide sufficient answers to your questions and doubts and that's unfortunate.  Most believers don't engage in apologetics and graduate level theological studies.  Reason being is those genuine believers have experienced the risen Christ so their doubts have already been removed.  Most atheists jam-pack their minds with everything from science, mathematics, history, philosophy to theology and every religious study under the sun;  yet, they engage in zero theological application (ex: try to experience Christ for themselves in an honest, sincere way).  Ignoring the most important aspect of Christianity with a mask of intellectual superiority and arrogance leaves the atheist handicapped.  I've experienced all that atheism and Christianity have to offer intellectually, but I've also made the crucial leap of faith and Christ's revelation therein.

OTHstrong

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #229 on: August 21, 2012, 05:09:01 PM »
The only ones I need to ' prove ' it to is them. and you can prove it to them with your actions. But you can say that I only think I love them but I don't really know it doesn't change the fact.

And I fail to see what this has to do belief in a deity  ???
-BINGO, EXACTLY...... that is my point, thank you. You can say that I only think I have an experience with God but doesn`t change the fact.

 8)

slate

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #230 on: August 21, 2012, 05:32:09 PM »
WTF?

hey mr moderator why did you move my totally unrelated thread "In a world without a "Dog". into this shit thread??

who the fuck cares about God, we were talking about Dog. Please can you move it back as an independent thread. I dont want to be part of a thread with juvenile wanna be philosophers discussing "God". You need to be under 25 to embark on that old chestnut

Grown ups discuss Dog.

Mr moderator beware of the famous saying:

" For the Dog gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk in integrity, guarding the paths of justice"

OTHstrong

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #231 on: August 21, 2012, 05:36:20 PM »
WTF?

hey mr moderator why did you move my totally unrelated thread "In a world without a "Dog". into this shit thread??

who the fuck cares about God, we were talking about Dog. Please can you move it back as an independent thread. I dont want to be part of a thread with juvenile wanna be philosophers discussing "God". You need to be under 25 to embark on that old chestnut

Grown ups discuss Dog.

Mr moderator beware of the famous saying:

" For the Dog gives wisdom; from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. He stores up sound wisdom for the upright; He is a shield to those who walk in integrity, guarding the paths of justice"
LMAO, oh my, I just pissed my pants in laughter. funny shit right here

I was wondering where those post where coming from

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #232 on: August 21, 2012, 05:37:39 PM »
Absolutely my experiences are proof of God.  I already know the vast majority of cliched responses, generalizations and standard atheist replies; in addition, I'm versed in the apologetic defenses as well so we can skip all that.  In short, my experiences are validated by the body of believers who've also experienced the risen Christ.  Your refusal to have an experience of your own leaves you handicapped and deluded.  I hate to say it like that, but that's how you've chosen to phrase things so hopefully that resonates with you better. 

I have no doubt being raised in household of believers was very difficult.  I'm guessing your family was unable to provide sufficient answers to your questions and doubts and that's unfortunate.  Most believers don't engage in apologetics and graduate level theological studies.  Reason being is those genuine believers have experienced the risen Christ so their doubts have already been removed.  Most atheists jam-pack their minds with everything from science, mathematics, history, philosophy to theology and every religious study under the sun;  yet, they engage in zero theological application (ex: try to experience Christ for themselves in an honest, sincere way).  Ignoring the most important aspect of Christianity with a mask of intellectual superiority and arrogance leaves the atheist handicapped.  I've experienced all that atheism and Christianity have to offer intellectually, but I've also made the crucial leap of faith and Christ's revelation therein.



Quote
Absolutely my experiences are proof of God.  I already know the vast majority of cliched responses, generalizations and standard atheist replies; in addition, I'm versed in the apologetic defenses as well so we can skip all that.  In short, my experiences are validated by the body of believers who've also experienced the risen Christ.  Your refusal to have an experience of your own leaves you handicapped and deluded.  I hate to say it like that, but that's how you've chosen to phrase things so hopefully that resonates with you better. 

No they are not , the way you feel isn't proof of God existence. It's proof of the way you feel. Proof is physical evidence which can be independently verified. Your personal experiences can't be. You may be wrong ever consider that? especially considering all religions claim to be the one true religion and all others are fake. You believe your version of the story is the correct one doesn't mean it is.

Apologetics is damage control , a poor attempt at trying to come up with excuses for the majority of major problems with Christianity. And that's Apologetics job is try and combat the compelling arguments against it , hence why you are familiar with the responses from Atheists because you have been corrected many times already.

And to supplement your argument for the proof of God you just used more faulty logic Argument Ad Populum , appeals to the masses , a lot of  people have claimed a personal experience with Jesus so he's real , doesn't prove anything. And again don't blame me because I can't/wont entertain your belief and then say it's my fault I can't see what you see the way you do , you still refuse to entertain there may be a possibility you may have picked the wrong religion.

Quote
I have no doubt being raised in household of believers was very difficult.  I'm guessing your family was unable to provide sufficient answers to your questions and doubts and that's unfortunate.  Most believers don't engage in apologetics and graduate level theological studies.  Reason being is those genuine believers have experienced the risen Christ so their doubts have already been removed.  Most atheists jam-pack their minds with everything from science, mathematics, history, philosophy to theology and every religious study under the sun;  yet, they engage in zero theological application (ex: try to experience Christ for themselves in an honest, sincere way).  Ignoring the most important aspect of Christianity with a mask of intellectual superiority and arrogance leaves the atheist handicapped.  I've experienced all that atheism and Christianity have to offer intellectually, but I've also made the crucial leap of faith and Christ's revelation therein.

And maybe the answers weren't sufficient or acceptable ever consider that? Apologetics is damage control aimed and the many flaws with Christianity it doesn't offer any real answers. And Atheism begins and ends with " I don't have a belief in God ' anything else beyond that is anto-theism. Many Atheists can be without a belief in God and still not care anything about science or mathematics , philosophy.

Believers throw out all rational thought and let a 2000 year old story think for them , and just take it all on good faith , some us need more than that and that's a more intellectually honest conclusion to come to than just taking a leap of faith.  

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #233 on: August 21, 2012, 05:40:31 PM »
-BINGO, EXACTLY...... that is my point, thank you. You can say that I only think I have an experience with God but doesn`t change the fact.

 8)

There is NO fact family is real God is a story. So people say they have a personal experience with Zeus that it's true because you can't tell them it's not?


Natural Man

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #234 on: August 21, 2012, 05:41:14 PM »
You love someone when this special someone increase/maintain your odds of survival because she/he has something you need. She/He is special because she/he cares about you, that's what makes her/him special. Others people who have nothing to bring, are ignored. People who cannot increase your odds of survival are ignored or despised. Basically you have interest in others only when they have something you need to improve or maintain your odds of survival. If you happen to also maintain or increase theirs bringing something they need, then maybe a relationship can start.

The True Adonis

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #235 on: August 21, 2012, 05:42:56 PM »
You love someone when this special someone increase/maintain your odds of survival because she/he has something you need. Others people who have nothing to bring, are ignored. People who cannot increase your odds of survival are ignored or despised. Basically you have interest in others only when they have something you need to improve or maintain your odds of survival. If you happen to also maintain or increase theirs bringing something they need, then maybe a relationship can start.
::)

OTHstrong

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #236 on: August 21, 2012, 05:44:16 PM »
There is NO fact family is real God is a story. So people say they have a personal experience with Zeus that it's true because you can't tell them it's not?


You had the point now you lost it again. My point is not 1 single action can prove that you love someone as not one single action can prove my experience with God.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #237 on: August 21, 2012, 05:51:39 PM »
You had the point now you lost it again. My point is not 1 single action can prove that you love someone as not one single action can prove my experience with God.

No personal experience claim can prove God exists , not twenty of them or hundreds. have you ever entertained the possibility that you may be wrong? your personal experience is something you deluded yourself into believing or feeling?

Did God come at you when you were 10 and say ' This is God I want have a personal relationship with you '? NO you were taught about God and taught how to have a ' personal relationship ' with him and convinced yourself you do , this doesn't make it A) true or B) prove God exists

Why is religion and God belief based? faith based? because it's NOT a fact and you're force to only believe because it's all you can do. It's not a fact , they presented you this wonderful story and promised you eternal life if you believe and give yourself to Jesus

What is God? it's a story that people can choose to believe or not


bighead

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #238 on: August 21, 2012, 05:54:04 PM »

Kahn.N.Singh

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #239 on: August 21, 2012, 05:54:48 PM »
Because we seem to have ventured into a discussion about Love here at Getbig Theological Seminary, some might be interested in the distinctions that have been made in the philosophical and theological literature. I'm not interested in debating the merits and demerits of these terms. Just food for thought, as it were.

1. Eros or desirous love. Sometimes tied to sensuality. The thing about erotic love is that the lover objectifies what she desires to possess, i.e., the 'object of desire.' This is an ends-related love. For example, "I love you because you give me X, or because you make me feel like Y, or because you have quality-Z, etc. Eros is also tied to reproductive love (see, e.g., Aristophanes' speech in Plato's Symposium).

2. Philia or love in friendship. Philia relies on people having some thing or some pursuit in common, which is attractive. If you love, say, the iron game, you might become friends with others who have the same interest/attraction.

3. Agape or unconditional love. This designation was developed most fully by Christian theologians, and is used to describe God's love. It is also used to describe self-sacrificing love. This is the purest kind of love.

There is another kind of love, Storge or familial affection, which is discussed by C.S. Lewis in The Four Loves. Personally, I prefer Anders Nygren’s scholarly Agape and Eros, and Allan Soble’s compendium, Eros, Agape, and Philia.

syntaxmachine

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #240 on: August 21, 2012, 05:57:51 PM »
Absolutely my experiences are proof of God.  I already know the vast majority of cliched responses, generalizations and standard atheist replies; in addition, I'm versed in the apologetic defenses as well so we can skip all that.  In short, my experiences are validated by the body of believers who've also experienced the risen Christ.  Your refusal to have an experience of your own leaves you handicapped and deluded.  I hate to say it like that, but that's how you've chosen to phrase things so hopefully that resonates with you better. 

I have no doubt being raised in household of believers was very difficult.  I'm guessing your family was unable to provide sufficient answers to your questions and doubts and that's unfortunate.  Most believers don't engage in apologetics and graduate level theological studies.  Reason being is those genuine believers have experienced the risen Christ so their doubts have already been removed.  Most atheists jam-pack their minds with everything from science, mathematics, history, philosophy to theology and every religious study under the sun;  yet, they engage in zero theological application (ex: try to experience Christ for themselves in an honest, sincere way).  Ignoring the most important aspect of Christianity with a mask of intellectual superiority and arrogance leaves the atheist handicapped.  I've experienced all that atheism and Christianity have to offer intellectually, but I've also made the crucial leap of faith and Christ's revelation therein.


I don't think the Almighty Gnome approves of this post.


I'm versed in the apologetic defenses as well


Sweet, so we can have a discussion centred on Plantinga's modal argument for the existence of God and what it suggests about the cogency of S5 modal logic?


Man of Steel

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #241 on: August 21, 2012, 05:58:44 PM »

Proof is physical evidence which can be independently verified.

Apologetics is damage control , a poor attempt at trying to come up with excuses for the majority of major problems with Christianity.
 

There are good and bad apologists just like there are good and bad scientists and doctors.  Atheists don't like apologetics because good, sound apologetics provide legitimate, peer-reviewed, theological answers to the vast majority of questions LOL.  You and I both know what the atheist does then....so enough of that.

Exactly what you said above is correct on proof and exactly what I've been saying.....have an honest experience of your own and you'll then join the body of believers some of which have had the same tangible, physical experiences with Christ via the Holy Spirit.  A personal experience will then be verified, peer-reviewed and deemed sufficient proof.

Still, you can't change a grown adult.  Virtually every grown adult on this planet must experience everything on their own regardless of the experiences of family, friends and coworkers.  "Hey, it didn't happen to me so it ain't or can't be real."  So why not see what all the hype is about and try the risen Christ for yourself?  "No, I have a brain."  Tremendous.


NarcissisticDeity

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #242 on: August 21, 2012, 06:00:16 PM »
This pretty much destroys the claim from personal experience

"Millions of people personally know God through an inner spiritual experience.  People who doubt God have not had a personal experience with Him." So says the Christian.
    Religionists don't realize how meaningless this statement appears to Rationalists To the less sympathetic rationalist, it appears pathetic.  To a skeptic, such a statement about Personal Experience won't advance your argument at all, but rather, it will set you back.  Empirical Rationalism is a system of thought based on evidence that can be independently verified, and potentially falsified, and the use of common sense and verifiable experience.  In the real world, anyone is free to say anything, without the strength of supporting evidence.  Are all claims therefore to be taken at face value, and given equal weight?  The person who says he saw Elvis at the supermarket, or the person who says he was abducted by an alien spacecraft, or the person who says salvation is waiting in the tail of a comet... is all anecdotal evidence valid?  In a court of law, witness testimony is given and evaluated.  If it is not in accord with factual evidence, it is in doubt.  In a court, the burden of proof is on the prosecution (the skeptics).  But in the search for scientific truths (in this case, the ultimate origin of the universe), it is the opposite. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that God exists, or the defendant.

    Some say that we cannot deny the existence of the spirit (because it would require one to prove that the spirit does not exist), but this is to misunderstand logic.  It is a logical error called shifting the burden of proof.  It is unnecessary for Rationalists to deny the existence of the spirit; they would say that the existence of spirit is unproven (and unlikely) based on current scientific knowledge, and in the absence of proof, they would simply ignore the possibility of the spirit for more meaningful and tangible pursuits, until such proofs are made available.

    Anecdotal evidence and arguments from authority are meaningless in science, and in any search for empirical truths.  There is either a god or there isn't, and popular opinion means nothing.  For example: 500 years ago, everyone KNEW the Earth was flat.  It was an important doctrine of Christianity, as was geocentrism (the Earth sitting at the center of the universe), and to speak against these religious doctrines could result in your death at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church.  500 years ago, probably 99.9% of the population believed in a flat Earth.  The belief was based on perception and personal experience.  But personal experience can be in error, imagined, contrived, or done out of conformity.  It CANNOT be relied on for establishing universal truths.  IT'S POSSIBLE for the entire population to believe wrongly!  It took many years for the idea of a round Earth to gain acceptance, but (thanks to science) it eventually did.  Even today, there are many Creationists who still claim that the Earth is flat.

    Some religionists have claimed that dreams are analogous to the Personal Experience Argument, in the form of the premise: “Dreams are non-physical, and can’t be proved.  We accept their existence from the evidence of accounts from personal experience.”  But everyone has dreams.  They are a common shared experience.  No one doubts their occurrence, because we all have them.  Dreams are a product of firing synapses in the brain, and can be detected with scientific tests.  Comparing dreams to personal religious experience (something that is totally unverifiable) is a false analogy.  It is trying to compare apples with oranges.  Instead of dreams, it is more appropriate to compare the personal religious experience with the claim that someone saw Elvis at the supermarket, because both Elvis and a personal religious experience are equally unverifiable, are not a shared experience, and must be taken completely on faith.

    The Argument from Personal Experience is also a circular argument.  In other words: “The proof of God is that I believe in Him.”  The conclusion is assumed in the premise.  These kinds of statements are absolutely worthless in establishing the truth.  Another very common circular argument is as follows: “God is real because the bible says so, and the bible is true because it is the inspired word of God.”  Another is: “The proof of the miracles contained in the bible is that God can do anything he wants.”

    If you are asked to prove the existence of god, don't bother stating your personal relationship with him as proof.  Saying so will only make you appear to be a brainwashed individual who cannot distinguish fantasy from reality.  As an argument, it carries no weight, and does nothing to counter the mountain of biblical errors, obscenities and absurdities.

    Most theists claim their god can be known through prayer, but such experiences POINT TO NOTHING OUTSIDE THE MIND.  We know that many humans habitually invent myths, hear voices, hallucinate and talk with imaginary friends. We do not know that there is a god.

    “But there are millions of people who have a personal relationship with God!”  This is a statement about humanity, not about god.  It speaks about the belief in a god, not the existence of a god.  Truth is not something that is determined by vote. Religions arose not from truth, but to deal with the saddness of death, emotional weakness, the terror of dreams, a desire for explanations and the fear of the unknown.  If you consider such popular numbers to be significant, then of what significance is the fact that there are more non-Christians in the world than there are Christians?

    The 1998 World Almanac and Book of Facts ranks Non-Religious first in world population, with a whopping 2,669,737,500... outranking Christians (all denominations combined) at 1,955,229,000, and Muslims at 1,126,325,000.  The Almanac sites the 1997 Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year as its source.  In the U.S. alone, polls consistently show about 10% of Americans call themselves 'non-religious'.  That's 26 million Americans.  In Europe, Russia, the Orient and Australia, it is much higher.  What about people working in scientific fields?  A recent poll of scientists revealed that only 7% of them believe in a god of any kind.

Man of Steel

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #243 on: August 21, 2012, 06:02:13 PM »
I don't think the Almighty Gnome approves of this post.

Sweet, so we can have a discussion centred on Plantinga's modal argument for the existence of God and what it suggests about the cogency of S5 modal logic?



Versed in regards to the topic at hand....not versed in every apologetic topic.

Besides, your waaay too smart for me.

Let me know if I spelled and punctuated this reply correctly.

Primemuscle

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #244 on: August 21, 2012, 06:02:19 PM »
What would you do if humans found out that there was no god, no afterlife, etc.... Would you be tempted to sin?  Steal, cheat, murder etc....?  Would the Police /government matter anymore?  Would there be civil wars in every major country?  There is a good that comes from religion.

Religion hasn't stopped most people from stealing, cheating and murdering etc.. People who do these things, do them regardless of their religious beliefs.

Many of the early mafia folk were Italian. A lot of Italians practiced and still do practice Catholicism. When they murder, cheat and steal, they go to confession and ask to be forgiven for their sins. Many times the priest obliges them. Same thing with the Irish, whether Catholic or Protestant. Throughout history, wars have been fought in the name of religion. Countless people have died in the because of religion and religious beliefs.

The reward for being a good person who does steal, cheat or murder etc. is how it makes you feel. If you "do onto others as you would have them do unto you," Luke 6.31 the chances are you will live a pretty fulfilling life.

Incidentally, some police and some governments steal, cheat and murder etc.

Have you ever sinned? If so, why didn't your religious beliefs prevent you from doing this? Pretty much everyone makes mistakes along the way. Hopefully, not to the degree of murdering folks though. If you are lucky, you'll learn from your mistakes and not repeat them.

BTW, I have no issue with religion. If it works for you or others, great! However, it obviously does not work for everyone.

Man of Steel

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #245 on: August 21, 2012, 06:03:56 PM »
This pretty much destroys the claim from personal experience

"Millions of people personally know God through an inner spiritual experience.  People who doubt God have not had a personal experience with Him." So says the Christian.
    Religionists don't realize how meaningless this statement appears to Rationalists To the less sympathetic rationalist, it appears pathetic.  To a skeptic, such a statement about Personal Experience won't advance your argument at all, but rather, it will set you back.  Empirical Rationalism is a system of thought based on evidence that can be independently verified, and potentially falsified, and the use of common sense and verifiable experience.  In the real world, anyone is free to say anything, without the strength of supporting evidence.  Are all claims therefore to be taken at face value, and given equal weight?  The person who says he saw Elvis at the supermarket, or the person who says he was abducted by an alien spacecraft, or the person who says salvation is waiting in the tail of a comet... is all anecdotal evidence valid?  In a court of law, witness testimony is given and evaluated.  If it is not in accord with factual evidence, it is in doubt.  In a court, the burden of proof is on the prosecution (the skeptics).  But in the search for scientific truths (in this case, the ultimate origin of the universe), it is the opposite. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that God exists, or the defendant.

    Some say that we cannot deny the existence of the spirit (because it would require one to prove that the spirit does not exist), but this is to misunderstand logic.  It is a logical error called shifting the burden of proof.  It is unnecessary for Rationalists to deny the existence of the spirit; they would say that the existence of spirit is unproven (and unlikely) based on current scientific knowledge, and in the absence of proof, they would simply ignore the possibility of the spirit for more meaningful and tangible pursuits, until such proofs are made available.

    Anecdotal evidence and arguments from authority are meaningless in science, and in any search for empirical truths.  There is either a god or there isn't, and popular opinion means nothing.  For example: 500 years ago, everyone KNEW the Earth was flat.  It was an important doctrine of Christianity, as was geocentrism (the Earth sitting at the center of the universe), and to speak against these religious doctrines could result in your death at the hands of the Roman Catholic Church.  500 years ago, probably 99.9% of the population believed in a flat Earth.  The belief was based on perception and personal experience.  But personal experience can be in error, imagined, contrived, or done out of conformity.  It CANNOT be relied on for establishing universal truths.  IT'S POSSIBLE for the entire population to believe wrongly!  It took many years for the idea of a round Earth to gain acceptance, but (thanks to science) it eventually did.  Even today, there are many Creationists who still claim that the Earth is flat.

    Some religionists have claimed that dreams are analogous to the Personal Experience Argument, in the form of the premise: “Dreams are non-physical, and can’t be proved.  We accept their existence from the evidence of accounts from personal experience.”  But everyone has dreams.  They are a common shared experience.  No one doubts their occurrence, because we all have them.  Dreams are a product of firing synapses in the brain, and can be detected with scientific tests.  Comparing dreams to personal religious experience (something that is totally unverifiable) is a false analogy.  It is trying to compare apples with oranges.  Instead of dreams, it is more appropriate to compare the personal religious experience with the claim that someone saw Elvis at the supermarket, because both Elvis and a personal religious experience are equally unverifiable, are not a shared experience, and must be taken completely on faith.

    The Argument from Personal Experience is also a circular argument.  In other words: “The proof of God is that I believe in Him.”  The conclusion is assumed in the premise.  These kinds of statements are absolutely worthless in establishing the truth.  Another very common circular argument is as follows: “God is real because the bible says so, and the bible is true because it is the inspired word of God.”  Another is: “The proof of the miracles contained in the bible is that God can do anything he wants.”

    If you are asked to prove the existence of god, don't bother stating your personal relationship with him as proof.  Saying so will only make you appear to be a brainwashed individual who cannot distinguish fantasy from reality.  As an argument, it carries no weight, and does nothing to counter the mountain of biblical errors, obscenities and absurdities.

    Most theists claim their god can be known through prayer, but such experiences POINT TO NOTHING OUTSIDE THE MIND.  We know that many humans habitually invent myths, hear voices, hallucinate and talk with imaginary friends. We do not know that there is a god.

    “But there are millions of people who have a personal relationship with God!”  This is a statement about humanity, not about god.  It speaks about the belief in a god, not the existence of a god.  Truth is not something that is determined by vote. Religions arose not from truth, but to deal with the saddness of death, emotional weakness, the terror of dreams, a desire for explanations and the fear of the unknown.  If you consider such popular numbers to be significant, then of what significance is the fact that there are more non-Christians in the world than there are Christians?

    The 1998 World Almanac and Book of Facts ranks Non-Religious first in world population, with a whopping 2,669,737,500... outranking Christians (all denominations combined) at 1,955,229,000, and Muslims at 1,126,325,000.  The Almanac sites the 1997 Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year as its source.  In the U.S. alone, polls consistently show about 10% of Americans call themselves 'non-religious'.  That's 26 million Americans.  In Europe, Russia, the Orient and Australia, it is much higher.  What about people working in scientific fields?  A recent poll of scientists revealed that only 7% of them believe in a god of any kind.


Have an experience for youself ND.

OTHstrong

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #246 on: August 21, 2012, 06:08:24 PM »
No personal experience claim can prove God exists , not twenty of them or hundreds. have you ever entertained the possibility that you may be wrong? your personal experience is something you deluded yourself into believing or feeling?

Did God come at you when you were 10 and say ' This is God I want have a personal relationship with you '? NO you were taught about God and taught how to have a ' personal relationship ' with him and convinced yourself you do , this doesn't make it A) true or B) prove God exists

Why is religion and God belief based? faith based? because it's NOT a fact and you're force to only believe because it's all you can do. It's not a fact , they presented you this wonderful story and promised you eternal life if you believe and give yourself to Jesus

What is God? it's a story that people can choose to believe or not


Well, thanks for having patients with me  :D

No one is disagreeing with this statement, but the exact same is true about love and you refuse to accept this fact. The fact that no action and like you put it not even 20 of them can prove you love someone, if you think actions can prove love then name one action and I will prove that that action you stated is not proof.  point is we use the same rational reasoning in believing we love someone as Christians do when they believe their experience with God

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #247 on: August 21, 2012, 06:09:09 PM »
There are good and bad apologists just like there are good and bad scientists and doctors.  Atheists don't like apologetics because good, sound apologetics provide legitimate, peer-reviewed, theological answers to the vast majority of questions LOL.  You and I both know what the atheist does then....so enough of that.

Exactly what you said above is correct on proof and exactly what I've been saying.....have an honest experience of your own and you'll then join the body of believers some of which have had the same tangible, physical experiences with Christ via the Holy Spirit.  A personal experience will then be verified, peer-reviewed and deemed sufficient proof.

Still, you can't change a grown adult.  Virtually every grown adult on this planet must experience everything on their own regardless of the experiences of family, friends and coworkers.  "Hey, it didn't happen to me so it ain't or can't be real."  So why not see what all the hype is about and try the risen Christ for yourself?  "No, I have a brain."  Tremendous.



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There are good and bad apologists just like there are good and bad scientists and doctors.  Atheists don't like apologetics because good, sound apologetics provide legitimate, peer-reviewed, theological answers to the vast majority of questions LOL.  You and I both know what the atheist does then....so enough of that.

LMAO ' peer-reviewed ' by other Apologetics? stop trying to compare Apologetics to Science and use words like peer-reviewed , Apologetics is damage control nothing more and lots of damage has been done to God and Christianity  

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Exactly what you said above is correct on proof and exactly what I've been saying.....have an honest experience of your own and you'll then join the body of believers some of which have had the same tangible, physical experiences with Christ via the Holy Spirit.  A personal experience will then be verified, peer-reviewed and deemed sufficient proof.

Wrong see above , personal experience is NOT proof. You wont get away with typing that , I'm sure you believe it but you put lots of faith in things you have no proof for. par for the course.

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Still, you can't change a grown adult.  Virtually every grown adult on this planet must experience everything on their own regardless of the experiences of family, friends and coworkers.  "Hey, it didn't happen to me so it ain't or can't be real."  So why not see what all the hype is about and try the risen Christ for yourself?  "No, I have a brain."  Tremendous

You keep clinging to there is something wrong with ME if I don't experience what you have , I'm just not trying hard enough , or my heart just isn't open , or not being honest. Don't blame me because I don't believe what you do.

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #248 on: August 21, 2012, 06:12:34 PM »
``Wrong see above , personal experience is NOT proof. You wont get away with typing that , I'm sure you believe it but you put lots of faith in things you have no proof for. par for the course. `` ND


so do you.... loving your family..... can not be proven has to be taken by faith

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: In a world without a "GOD".
« Reply #249 on: August 21, 2012, 06:13:25 PM »
Well, thanks for having patients with me  :D

No one is disagreeing with this statement, but the exact same is true about love and you refuse to accept this fact. The fact that no action and like you put it not even 20 of them can prove you love someone, if you think actions can prove love then name one action and I will prove that that action you stated is not proof.  point is we use the same rational reasoning in believing we love someone as Christians do when they believe their experience with God

I don't have a desire or need to prove I love anyone. And again personal experience is not proof , people have claimed they can and do talk to the dead doesn't mean it's true. people believe they are Napoleon doesn't make it true , people believe all sorts of things doesn't make them true and again have you thought about the possibility that you might be mistaken?

When you say you have a personal relationship with God what does that even mean?  ???