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Author Topic: The bible and the trinity (or lack of it)  (Read 8832 times)
a_ahmed
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« on: September 07, 2012, 08:44:00 AM »

lets try this one more time without death threats from ignorant individuals of this forum:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7ZJYL1KKRU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7ZJYL1KKRU</a>
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2012, 09:56:06 AM »

Sorry, don't have 2 hours to invest at the moment.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2012, 09:57:31 AM »

find two hours, its better than an eternity in hell
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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2012, 10:16:47 AM »

find two hours, its better than an eternity in hell

I'll be spending eterntiy with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ...so no worries.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2012, 10:18:34 AM »

You have that signed by God himself and with a stamp of approval or just wishful thinking?

Jews believe if you are a Jew you go to heaven regardless and if you are a non-jew regardless of how you were, you eternally perish.

More wishful thinking Smiley Maybe you haven't dedicated enough time for God, to be aware and was only told to believe that Wink Blind faith is no faith at all just the blind leading the blind.

This video I posted is by a non-muslim, a christian btw.
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2012, 10:23:35 AM »

You have that signed by God himself and with a stamp of approval or just wishful thinking?

Jews believe if you are a Jew you go to heaven regardless and if you are a non-jew regardless of how you were, you eternally perish.

More wishful thinking Smiley Maybe you haven't dedicated enough time for God, to be aware and was only told to believe that Wink Blind faith is no faith at all just the blind leading the blind.

This video I posted is by a non-muslim, a christian btw.

I've experienced the risen Christ friend...I have no doubts.  

Overcoming the hard-heartedness of others is one of the most difficult challenges and most often an impossibility on my own.  

I live my life as a representative for Christ as best I'm able and hope and pray others find salvation in him like I have.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2012, 10:25:32 AM »

Empty hoo haa emotional statements no facts.

I also went as a child to christian camps and they used to play "Jesus loves you" all night long until we fell asleep and kept us in the chapel for hours singing Jesus saved mankind, Jesus loves us all.

However, besides the emotional non-sense it didn't come anywhere near close to what the scriptures or history teach.

So again, you are running on blind faith, emotional rhetoric and no proof. Conjecture and wishful thinking is not proof no matter how many times you repeat it. Just as no matter how many times you try to 'explain' the trinity it does not make it true. Only wishful thinking. Pagan philosophy became strong post 150AD and so did Christian teachings

You strayed from the message and teachinsg of Jesus and turned Jesus into a demigod.
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2012, 10:38:41 AM »

Empty hoo haa emotional statements no facts.

I also went as a child to christian camps and they used to play "Jesus loves you" all night long until we fell asleep and kept us in the chapel for hours singing Jesus saved mankind, Jesus loves us all.

However, besides the emotional non-sense it didn't come anywhere near close to what the scriptures or history teach.

So again, you are running on blind faith, emotional rhetoric and no proof. Conjecture and wishful thinking is not proof.
Church attendance, sunday school attendance, prayer meeting attendance, church camp attendance, etc...is meaningless on it's own.  I mean no offense by that statement either.

I've provided no emotional appeals, no lavish displays, no hateful rhetoric, no attacks.  

Simply put, I am the proof.  The body of believers are the proof (regardless of the few bad apples that always exist in every group).   You can be the proof too.  Blind faith is meaningless, but faith based in personal experience and a relationship with Christ is the crux.  

On it's own there isn't enough scripture, apologetics, debate, scholarly texts, youtube videos, etc...to fill the void or satiate most.  Only a personal experience with the risen Christ can do that and that's the aspect that will be left unexplored lifetime after lifetime after lifetime.    

You want proof?  Take it to the Lord in prayer and worship and ask for revelation in your own life.  

I've debated nonbelievers plenty and talk is often cheap from both sides.  Everyone desires the real deal....the genuine article....the gold standard of proof; yet, the vast majority refuse to do what is required to experience that proof.  

Christ is the narrow gate and that gate is always unlocked, but you have to pull it open and truly, humbly desire to do so.  He knows the contents of your heart so when you truly surrender you'll have no doubts.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2012, 10:41:31 AM »

You are still running on blind faith, blind leading the blind.

You are claiming you are going to heaven just because you are christian and 'saved by Jesus'.

This is not from God, this is not even from the utterance of Jesus. It's your own wishful thinking

If you read the scriptures your trinitarian beliefs are destroyed.

God is one not a demigod, or three persons or whatever other non-sense.

And about 'personal experience', there are hindus who claim things happened to them but they worship cows and idols.

I also had a dream of Jesus telling me there is only one God, he was in white robes and his face not so visible but i felt it, this happened to me while I was studying the scriptures and doubting the trinity. This was to me a significant dream.. and eventually it led me to islam.

Yet you would denounce that or 'reinterpret' that the way you want.
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2012, 10:44:42 AM »

You are still running on blind faith, blind leading the blind.

You are claiming you are going to heaven just because you are christian and 'saved by Jesus'.

This is not from God, this is not even from the utterance of Jesus. It's your own wishful thinking

If you read the scriptures your trinitarian beliefs are destroyed.

God is one not a demigod, or three persons or whatever other non-sense.

And about 'personal experience', there are hindus who claim things happened to them but they worship cows and idols.

Friend, your statements are unfortunately empty and I hate to say that.  You have no genuine relationship with Christ, but it doesn't have to be that way.  I'm no better or different than you....I just took a few steps you haven't. 
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2012, 10:47:12 AM »

You actually have no genuine relation with Christ because you are not following his teachings or message nor dress like him or believe what he believed or thought. You follow your desires.

You are just repeating that Jesus saved you, that's an empty statement. You are repeating that you are going to heaven. That is an unproven empty statement and your wishful thinking. You are stating Jesus is God, yet that is also wishful thinking and blasphemy.

Jesus didn't teach the trinity, but you do.

Quote
But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws. Matthew 7:23 '

You abandoned God's law and follow the teachings of the church, of paul, constantine a pagan did away with the law of God.

So no you are not following Christ, you are CLAIMING it, but not in action just emotional rhetoric.
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2012, 11:02:00 AM »

You actually have no genuine relation with Christ because you are not following his teachings or message nor dress like him or believe what he believed or thought. You follow your desires.

You are just repeating that Jesus saved you, that's an empty statement. You are repeating that you are going to heaven. That is an unproven empty statement and your wishful thinking. You are stating Jesus is God, yet that is also wishful thinking and blasphemy.

Jesus didn't teach the trinity, but you do.

You abandoned God's law and follow the teachings of the church, of paul, constantine a pagan did away with the law of God.

So no you are not following Christ, you are CLAIMING it, but not in action just emotional rhetoric.

"No MOS!  You're wrong, you're this."
"No a_ahmed!  You're wrong, you're this."

These exchanges are utterly meaningless.   My position is stated about 4-5 posts up from this.  If you choose to explore what I encourage I'm happy to speak with you, pray for you, etc....but the back and forth "no I'm right, you're wrong" stuff I don't care for.
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scottt
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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2012, 11:41:15 AM »

The trinity is a pagan belief but not all christians believe in it. Christianity is not the problem its hundreds of years of lies spread by the chatholic church and other so called christian organizations to control the masses. At the age of 25 I recognized this through study but it didnt make leave christianity just the catholic church.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2012, 12:46:00 PM »

In the original thread, I began posting verses which were forgeries and later additions, fabrications which shed light on the deliberate introduction of the trinity.

You are clinging onto lies. It is not the word of God, it is the word of men.

God does not change, God does not deceive, God does not mislead. Only men do and that is why the trinity is such a paradox and falsehood. You can only play with words. But the eternal truth about our eternal lord and creator is only one. That God is ONE... ETERNAL. As was thought by Jesus as is told to us in scripture. Not what Paul, or the church or constantine did.

Jesus did not come to destroy the law of God, yet who did? The romans? Constantine? He was a pagan.

So why do you cling onto these pagan beliefs? You are therefore making yourself in my eyes look silly and just an emotional rant.

The burden of proof is on you, not me. I do not need to accept your blind faith. I came to faith not by blindness but by rational and thought. The burden of proof is against you as the scriptures denounce what you preach.

The only support you have for the trinity is paul's own teachings which he himself dubbed "my own gospel" and as he argued, condemned and cursed the actual disciples of Jesus and tried to persuade them to give up the law of God.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2012, 12:49:21 PM »

The trinity is a pagan belief but not all christians believe in it. Christianity is not the problem its hundreds of years of lies spread by the chatholic church and other so called christian organizations to control the masses. At the age of 25 I recognized this through study but it didnt make leave christianity just the catholic church.

You should watch the documentary I posted. It's really interesting and brings me back into my own line of thought from many years back how I explored this while reading scriptures and reading about history.. and then debating with priests, pastors, teachers, etc...
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2012, 12:54:53 PM »

And since we've gotten back on topic. This verse for example is a forgery:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

The fact that some hardcore christians actually believe that the bible is the word of God should tremble from it's foundation. Secondly, the fact that verses like these were deliberately forged to introduce the trinity should make one think. Not to mention the church chose to NOT include certain gospel writings and denounced them "the apocrypha" because they CHALLENGED the trinitarian teachings of the church which basically play on words that God is 'whole' but 'three persons' and all the other semantic explanations which really are pagan and not Jesus' teachings.
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Man of Steel
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« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2012, 01:15:21 PM »

And since we've gotten back on topic. This verse for example is a forgery:

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7)

The fact that some hardcore christians actually believe that the bible is the word of God should tremble from it's foundation. Secondly, the fact that verses like these were deliberately forged to introduce the trinity should make one think. Not to mention the church chose to NOT include certain gospel writings and denounced them "the apocrypha" because they CHALLENGED the trinitarian teachings of the church which basically play on words that God is 'whole' but 'three persons' and all the other semantic explanations which really are pagan and not Jesus' teachings.

I'm not clear, are you a Muslim?
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2012, 01:19:24 PM »

I became Muslim.

I accept Jesus and all the prophets and messengers before him. I believe in God, I believe in the revealed scriptures, but not in the forgeries of men. I will not accept lies that are labeled on God when clearly if you study just a tiny bit you will realize they are the handy work of men.

God does not lie, God does not deceive, God does not change, God is above all that and God is certainly eternally one and nothing resembles him in the creation (as the old testament states).

Jesus is certainly the messiah and will return.

I believe everything up to the point where the falsehood began. And that is. The romans, paul, the church and constantine. Everything before hand was Jesus, his followers. Everything afterwards went astray.

And what do you get when people follow desires and go astray? In the long term. COMPLETE divergence. To the point people ended up worshipping Jesus and claiming he is God Almighty. Such sacrilege and blasphemy, contrary to Jesus' own teachings and of course everything every other prophet and messenger brought before hand.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2012, 01:35:11 PM »

Proving Jesus is not the only 'son of God' or literally son of God as this is pagan. This is in the old testament:

Psalms A-V {2:7} I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [art] my Son; this day have I begotten thee. <------------- (David)

Exodus A-V {4:22} And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel[is] my son, [even] my firstborn <------------- (Israel)


Psalms A-V {82:6} I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High. <------ blasphemous but it calls everyone children of God

Romans A-V {8:14} For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. <----- again same idea. But what does it mean? If you understood hebrew language, it would mean godly person, not like God, but one who follows God..




And the verse:

John A-V {5:7} For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one <----- is an out right forgery

John A-V {3:16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. <--- another forgery and Christians like to quote "3:16" all the time but not realizing this is a forgery










Mark A-V {12:29} And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is,] Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord


Deuteronomy {6:4} Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.


^

שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יְהוָה אֶחָד - Sh'ma Yisra'el YHWH Eloheinu YHWH Eḥad





 Qul Hu-walaahu 'Ahad      Say: He is Allah, the One and Only!
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2012, 01:47:53 PM »

John {1:1} In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

The fist word (God) in Greek text is (Hothios) which means supreme Lord.
The second word (God) in Greek text is (Tonthios) which means created being with great quality or godly person which is used in the bible to call a messenger as a god like Moses (PBUH) called god in the bible, further more the above verse is not the saying of Jesus (PBUH) himself.

And if the (word) in this verse means God then let us exchange the two words and see how the verse looks like (in the beginning was the God and the God was with God and the God was God) which is meaningless.
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scottt
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« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2012, 03:27:53 PM »

I did not know muslims believed in Jesus as the messiah. Do you believe Jesus had a prehuman existence.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2012, 03:37:09 PM »

No and there is no such thing. Another forgery by later christians trying to further divinize Jesus and speak of him beyond the truth. It's plain logic, if that were true the Jews who had many prophets and messengers before Jesus would have known this.

Quote
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. ... Surah 4:171



Quote
Lo! We did reveal the Torah, wherein is guidance and a light, by which the prophets who surrendered (unto Allah) judged the Jews, and the rabbis and the priests (judged) by such of Allah's Scripture as they were bidden to observe, and thereunto were they witnesses. So fear not mankind, but fear Me. And My revelations for a little gain. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers.

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil).

5:44-45


Quote
The Messenger believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in God, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say), “We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers” and they say, “We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all).” Quran 2:285

]
Quote
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. 2:79
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2012, 04:25:42 PM »

Constantine banned the law of God and made it even punishable to 'observe the law of the jews'. It's interesting to listen to this a bit unrelated but I just saw it

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpmbb6bKVIU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpmbb6bKVIU</a>


Another of many ignored early writings in the very land of Jesus, Palestine:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m23VV6MOYF0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m23VV6MOYF0</a>
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2012, 04:29:21 PM »

You believe that you came from nothing and will perish  Roll Eyes I guess you are nothing now. It's all an accident, this post is an accident. it's all an illusion  Roll Eyes Stick to the atheist thread where I did not post.
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scottt
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« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2012, 04:45:05 PM »

Good video. I asked about a prehuman existance because of the verse in john you quoted. Jesus would fit in that verse as tonthios as you put it. This would not make him equal to GOD.
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