Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
October 24, 2014, 10:46:13 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
 
   Home   Help Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Serious question for Ahmed and other Muslims...  (Read 3416 times)
Thick Nick
Competitors
Getbig IV
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2208


"Some want to look good, others want to do good."


« on: September 14, 2012, 05:42:40 AM »

In Islam, who is it NOT ok to kill? Let's take inventory. Please if I forget any that ARE ok to kill, feel free to add.

OK to kill:

Yourself...suicide bombers.
Blashphemers...cartoon makers etc.
Infidels...non Muslims in Muslim lands
Apostates...those who try to leave Islam
Civilians...cause they pay taxes
Soldiers...the only legit target prolly
Your Wives...if they cheat
Your Children...if they shame the family
Other Muslims...different factions
Other Muslim women and children...human shields against the infidels
Those who refuse to convert...
Those who refuse to pay the tax for being non Muslim...
Homosexuals...

Did I miss any? So please explain who is left that it is NOT ok to kill? Serious question.

And I'll save you the trouble...

The crusades!!! The witch trials!!! Christians kill people too!!!
I am talking 2012 current Islamic law, so now you can stay on topic.
Report to moderator   Logged

$
Thick Nick
Competitors
Getbig IV
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2208


"Some want to look good, others want to do good."


« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2012, 07:39:43 AM »

Forgot rape victims...

Wait can you kill them or just beat them because of shame. I forget.
Report to moderator   Logged

$
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 15187


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2012, 08:04:34 AM »

Here is an interesting read:

The honourable way out of ‘honour killings’

Honour killings regularly make media headlines. Clan or family members are brutally murdered by one or more relatives because they feel that their victims have brought shame upon them by what is perceived as unacceptable sexual behaviour, marriage partners or dress codes. In order to restore lost honour, blood has to flow. The killings are seen as unavoidable.

There could be as many as 5,000 victims of world wide honour killings every year!1 Explicit laws allowing that brutal practice can be traced back as far as 1075 BC to the Assyrian civilization. They have also been common in the Babylonian and Roman empires.2

This article looks at the conditions that still allow honour killings to happen today. It focuses on the origins behind them and highlights the only viable solution to end the ongoing tragedy.


Conditions that still allow honour killings to happen today

Why are honour killings still prevalent, especially in Islamic countries and among Muslims, despite the fact that the Quran does not officially condone them? While it is true that tribal cultural ways3 sometimes take precedent over religious beliefs, it can be argued that the following verses of the Quran indirectly encourage this despicable practice.

Surah 18, Al-Kahf (The Cave), verses 66 – 84, mention that a boy was killed because he was about to bring his parents grief and dishonour through his unbelief. Muslim commentators are not in agreement whether the servant of Allah who murdered the boy was an angel or a prophet. The important fact is that Allah wanted him to be dead because the boy would bring future dishonour to them.

According to Surah 24, An-Nur, (Light) verse 2, the punishment for adultery is 100 stripes, contrary to hadiths found in Sahih Bukhari, 2.413, 8.805, 814, and 819, where it is stoning to death. Islam prescribes that the family should refer to the law, rather than carrying out their own punishment.

Surah 4, An-Nisā' (The Women), verses 34-35 state that men are in charge of women, being their protectors and maintainers. What happens if they fail in their duty to keep them out of harm’s way or women are simply unwilling to reconcile? The pressure of the Muslim community is on men to control the wives and daughters entrusted to them. In order to keep the honour of the family, be it for cultural or religious reasons, the strain could become so great that murder seems to be the only answer.

Surah 3, Al-i-‘Imran verse 110 proclaims, “You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allah....” (Sahih International Translation)

Traditionally, this verse has been understood to be addressed to Muslims and Arabs. “Anyone who becomes a Muslim becomes an Arab.”4 There is no distinction between Islam and culture. Islam is the culture of the Arabs. Anything a Muslim traditionally does in his culture is inherent to Islam, whether or not it is in the Qur’an.

Muslims aim to follow their Arab prophet in the way he dressed, kept his beard, ate, dealt with his enemies towards the end of his life,5 etc. There are many beautiful aspects in Arabic culture that are indeed worthy of copying, such as poetry, proverbs and wisdom, humour, intuition, romance, hospitality, loyalty and courage. However, as with all cultures, some aspects are bad, such as superstition, disunity, pride, temper, carelessness, lack of organisation, resistance to authority, pessimism and revenge. Blood revenge still exists in Arab villages. Revenge killings are common among Arab families and tribes. Take for example the animosity between Shi'a and Sunni Muslims that still exists today. It can to a great extent be traced back to their violent ways of determining a successor for their common prophet of Islam.6 Since to be a Muslim is to be an Arab it is quite possible to justify honour killings in that way by labeling them as part of the Islamic system.

A hadith used by some Muslims who follow the Shafi school of Islamic law within Sunni Islam justifies female genital mutilation to reduce their sexual drive. It is hoped that this practice would help to protect women from an otherwise increased risk of losing the honour of their families.7

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet ... said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.8


The origins behind honour killings

There is no doubt that the concept of restoring relationships of honour through the shedding of blood is found throughout human history in various cultures as well as religions. The earliest evidence is recorded in the first few pages of the Bible. After God created a breathtakingly beautiful and perfect world he put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden to lovingly fellowship with him and take care of his work. They were allowed to eat from the fruit of all trees except one, the tree of knowledge of good and evil that would cause them to die. Why did they rebel against God and as a result bring shame into their lives? Satan appeared in the form of a serpent9 and said to the woman:

You won't die. God knows that the moment you eat from that tree, you'll see what's really going on. You'll be just like God, knowing everything, ranging all the way from good to evil. (Genesis 3:4-5 – The Message)

Behind the disobedience of Adam and Eve was a lack of faith in the word of God. They believed Satan instead, who wrongly promised them to become like God. In doing so they tried to set themselves up as partners with God. Islam calls this ‘shirk’, the unforgivable sin. Since God does not share his Glory with anybody else, the Bible calls this heinous act ‘idolatry’ the substitution of somebody or something (e.g. money, sex, power, etc) for God. It is the essence of all sin and tragically being repeatedly committed ever since! In view of the fact that the first leaders of humanity failed miserably, all mankind suffers from the same problem. (E.g. Gaddafi was a bad Libyan leader and as a result his followers suffer.)

Adam and Eve immediately saw that they were naked and felt a tremendous sense of shame. Before, they were ‘clothed’ in love, the acceptance and security, and importance given by God. After falling into sin their eyes were opened to the sad truth that they were no longer acceptable to God and each other. Our first parents,

… sewed fig leaves together as makeshift clothes for themselves. (Genesis 3:7 – The Message)

Here we find the beginning of man-made religion, a futile attempt to cover up shameful deeds by totally insufficient work. The purpose is to regain the lost love and importance before God and man in one’s own strength. People are wrongly led to believe that there is a chance of their guilt and shame being covered as long as they adhere to certain lifestyles and rituals.10 It does not work because, as mentioned already, the root problem of Adam and Eve was not first of all a lack of work but a lack of faith that led to idolatry (‘shirk’)! The solution to a lack of faith is faith! Besides, those who try to obey God to gain his acceptance use obedience as a means to an end. Any end, focus or goal other than God is idolatry! When they heard God in the garden they became afraid and hid because they still felt naked in spite of their attempt to cover themselves.11

The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. (Genesis 3:21)12

This is the first indication where blood was shed by killing an animal to enable sinners to stand in God’s presence again and thereby having their honour restored! The garment made from animal skin was to replace Adam and Eve’s futile attempt to cover their nakedness with fig leaves.13

Their main punishment was the expulsion from the Garden of Eden.14 Consequently, the death Adam and Eve were threatened with if they took the forbidden fruit, referred to the end of their close, personal relationship with God. This spiritual death was followed later by physical death.


The honourable way out of honour killings

So far it has been established from the first pages of the Torah that the real reason behind man’s disobedience was found in a lack of faith towards God and his word. Had the problem just been a bad deed then the main religious answer to focus on doing good deeds would be understandable. However, since a lack of faith lies at the centre of the tragedy, the only logical solution to reverse the separation between God and man has to lie in focusing on faith in God and his word. In the punishment He pronounces on Satan God gives a hint of the nature of that problem-solving faith:

“I’m declaring war between you and the Woman, between your offspring and hers. He’ll wound your head, you’ll wound his heel.” (Genesis 3:13 - The Message)

This is the first prophecy of a son of a woman who will kill Satan and in the process will be suffering himself. The Bible identifies him as the Messiah, born by the Virgin Mary.15 God used him as a high priest, a mediator. He must be able to speak on equal terms with both God and man, and so Jesus took on a human nature in order to mediate between us.16

Only God Himself can remove shame and defilement (Arabic: ‘Najis’) that results in spiritual and physical death. Since birth everyone constantly carries inside them the very substances from which they regularly need to be cleansed. Similarly, as darkness cannot be chased away by itself, only through light, there is no way we can get rid of our internally resident impurities through our own ceremonial washings. Just as a candle casts darkness out of a room by entering it, God casts out defilement from humans by becoming one of them.17 He alone would restore the honour of His name in and through a perfect, sinless man, the Messiah Jesus. After all, God is the only one who can lift a person from a position of shame to a position of honour. No one can promote himself. It is an unwritten rule of the east. People know their place, and must remain in it.

As the story of the Torah and Zabur develops through people like Cain and Abel, Abraham and his son, and later through Israel, his chosen nation, the theme of sacrifice plays an absolutely central role. The word ‘sacrifice’ (or offering) is used 1047 times throughout the Holy Bible as the one and only means to get forgiveness:

Then the priest is to take one of the male Lambs and offer it as a guilt offering... (Leviticus 14:12)

Since the blood of animals cannot really forgive sins it served as a symbol for the perfect sacrifice to come:

John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29)

The time has come, Jesus said. The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news! (Mark 1:15)

As has become clear, it is impossible for man to save himself. To repent means to realize that sin is deeply offensive to God and people, to be truly sorry about it, and to hate it. It is a personal decision to turn from sin, to forsake it and follow Jesus instead. We are asked to live honourable lives as God intended by doing good deeds out of thankfulness that we are saved. To believe means to trust that Jesus died on the cross for my sin that caused shame and defilement. He paid the punishment for it on my behalf. Through his resurrection from the dead he was victorious over sin and Satan!

Jesus: “I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.” (John 15:11)

Jesus: “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever—the Spirit of truth... he lives with you and will be in you.” (John 14:15-17)

Man’s relationship with God is indeed close and personal. Through repentance and faith in Jesus, He lives in them through His Spirit, now and forever! His nature becomes their new nature; He is living in them and enabling them to be victorious over sin and shame! There is no more need for honour killings!

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor. 5:21)

God did not just give those who believe in Jesus a new position of honour (forgiveness and cleansing from sin, acceptance, affirmation and inclusion in his kingdom) but a new nature (crediting our lives with His perfection, His right standing!18). Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, that God honours the humble. When they are honoured, they simply grow more humble and turn the honour onto God alone who honours them!

Jesus Christ said: ‘If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.’ (John 7:17)

Are you prepared to choose to do God’s will and follow his truth, wherever it will lead you? Then he promises, you will find out whether his teaching is from God. Pray!
Report to moderator   Logged

bigbobs
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 9620


Islam, Nasser and Corvettes.


« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2012, 03:16:20 PM »

MOS, come on, that's a pretty weak and dishonest article you pasted in blue.  I'm sure you know that no where in islamic teachings does it condone or teach this.  It's an unfortunate cultural issue among some Arabs and East Indians (for example non-Muslim East Indians like Hindus and Sikhs also commit "honour killings" as well as Christian Arabs).  In case there was any doubt here's an example of an Imam who lives near me speaking out against this crime:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/02/04/toronto-fatwa-honour-killing-violence.html

As for the blue article, the story of khidr in the Quran does not advocate honor killings.  It's to teach Moses wisdom in his journey, that's the actual moral of the story.  The author intentionally did not include the full story.  It also includes a sinking of a ship by drilling a hole on purpose, rebuilding of a wall for no apparent reason at first that was crumbling, and killing a boy for no apparent reason to which Moses reacts in fury as to why is all this being done while Khidr each time almost seizes to allow him as a companion on his journey as Moses is impatient with hasty questioning.

The outcome and teaching of it to Moses is that he be obedient to God and that only God has knowledge of the unseen and it is up to him to reveal what he wants to reveal and to command whom he wants to command however he wants.

It has nothing to do with an actual "teaching" or advocating of honour killing.

If we're trying to use scripture to find support of honour killings, Ahmed has posted these examples:

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. (Exodus 21:17)"

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)"

Report to moderator   Logged
a_ahmed
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5799


Team Nasser


« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2012, 03:45:13 PM »

I just couldn't hold myself and had to come back when I read what you copy pasted. I will just avoid the political mash up section as it's filled with islamophobes who are bloodthirsty savages and hypocrites.

Your whole article is degenerative as it claims to quote verses in their context, but actually does not and in actuality adds unknown meanings that have nothing to do with the verses. A sign of someone who has not read the qur'an or deliberately wants to mislead people..

Quote
Colossians 3:18 ESV:

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

1 Timothy 2:11-14 ESV

Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Ephesians 5:22 ESV

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

Ephesians 5:22-24 ESV

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

There's more including the one where Paul says, women who do not veil themselves should shave their heads.

Your whole attempt was to misrepresnt verses from the qur'an then try to advocate how Jesus is God and he died for everyone's sins, blabla, the end. Sorry my friend... emotional christian evangelizing non-sense does not work on someone learned only someone unlearned.

The story of khidr as mentioned by bigbob is exactly what he said, not what you said.

The verses in the quran that speak about men being protectors of women... is exactly that. It talks about the responsibility that men have towards taking care of women. It no where talks about killing the women for honour or dishonour.

The punishment for adultery in islam is stoning to death as it is in the bible:

Leviticus 20:10 ESV

“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.


However the punishment for fornication (unmarried couple) is the whip.

You are a very intellectually dishonest person. The rest that you quote from the bible I won't bother addressing or quoting. You are not winning me or any Muslim to Christianity when we worship God and you call towards a forged belief the trinity a lie that came after Jesus. Everything that Paul thought contradicted Jesus' own teachings+OT. God does not change or deceive, men deceive and your buddy Paul certainly has deceived a lot of people Smiley
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 15187


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2012, 09:05:27 PM »

I just couldn't hold myself and had to come back when I read what you copy pasted. I will just avoid the political mash up section as it's filled with islamophobes who are bloodthirsty savages and hypocrites.

Your whole article is degenerative as it claims to quote verses in their context, but actually does not and in actuality adds unknown meanings that have nothing to do with the verses. A sign of someone who has not read the qur'an or deliberately wants to mislead people..

There's more including the one where Paul says, women who do not veil themselves should shave their heads.

Your whole attempt was to misrepresnt verses from the qur'an then try to advocate how Jesus is God and he died for everyone's sins, blabla, the end. Sorry my friend... emotional christian evangelizing non-sense does not work on someone learned only someone unlearned.

The story of khidr as mentioned by bigbob is exactly what he said, not what you said.

The verses in the quran that speak about men being protectors of women... is exactly that. It talks about the responsibility that men have towards taking care of women. It no where talks about killing the women for honour or dishonour.

The punishment for adultery in islam is stoning to death as it is in the bible:

Leviticus 20:10 ESV

“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.


However the punishment for fornication (unmarried couple) is the whip.

You are a very intellectually dishonest person. The rest that you quote from the bible I won't bother addressing or quoting. You are not winning me or any Muslim to Christianity when we worship God and you call towards a forged belief the trinity a lie that came after Jesus. Everything that Paul thought contradicted Jesus' own teachings+OT. God does not change or deceive, men deceive and your buddy Paul certainly has deceived a lot of people Smiley

I'm gonna say this and you're not going to like, but you've done nothing but pick a fight since you began posting on these boards.  Demanding respect while showing virtually none to others and blasting your platitudes at whomever will respond (which 95% of the time has been just me). 

I believe one of your first statements to me was that I will spend an eternity in hell.  It's completely untrue but regardless I don't care for it.   And the article above, it isn't mine, but it certainly isn't fun when someone posts things that are either taken out of context, interpreted incorrectly or corrupted completely is it? 

Here's the reality, you've been corrupted by the king of this world and that king has made you a slave to false teachings and a false prophet.  I know you feel passionately about Islam, but I pray that you can return to the Christianity you abandoned years ago and finally experience the love, grace and mercy of the Holy Spirit.....opening your eyes to the things unseen. 

If I offended you I apologize....I sincerely do and I will continue to pray for you.  I know my words are meaningless to you, but that is my prayer. 
Report to moderator   Logged

a_ahmed
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5799


Team Nasser


« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2012, 09:10:09 PM »

You quote what you claim as 'scholarship' when it is mere intellectual dishonesty. I blast your lies as they ought to be, lying against God is severe blasphemy and spreading it to others is plain sin.

My warning and reminder to all is that you will burn in hellfire for eternity for worshipping partners with God/that which He created or denying God. That is not my utterance but God's utterance. You claim with conviction you are going to heaven, what is your proof when I asked you, do you have this signed by God, surely you do? You will utter some emotional thing about "I found Christ" which is a meaningless statement.

And they say, "None will enter Paradise except one who is a Jew or a Christian." That is [merely] their wishful thinking, Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful." 2:111

Only by the mercy of God, obedience to God and good deeds will any of us enter heaven. Not because you claim to be a christian or jew or a certain race or people or have 'found christ'. Not even a Muslim who simply says I am muslim and i have a 'muslim name'. Speech is to be followed by action, and while we're at it... correct action. A person who does good in this world but denies God will not enter heaven. All that good will remain for this world and futile by denying God. Likewise for someone who worships the creation, they can claim all they want but they do not worship God.

God can forgive all, except ascribing partners to him. Worshipping false gods/creation/etc...

Quote
"If only they [i.e. Christians] had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course, but many of them follow a course that is evil" (5:66).

"Oh People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion, nor say of God anything but the truth. Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, was (no more than) a messenger of God, and His Word which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in God and His messengers. Say not, 'Trinity.' Desist! It will be better for you, for God is One God, Glory be to Him! (Far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is God as a Disposer of affairs" (4:171).

"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is but a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. God's curse be on them; how they are deluded away from the Truth! They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of God, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary. Yet they were commanded to worship but One God: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him! (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)" (9:30-31).

Claiming conjectures about God is lying against God and the prophets.

Finally why would I return to a religion of desires, a religion of convinence and where you worship a man who you are told is God when clearly everything he uttered was contrary to that claim. Most Christians that turned atheists will say the same of Christianity but will unfortunately abandon faith all together and class all religions the same as Christianity

Many of the People of the Book wish they could turn you back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves [even] after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook until Allah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109

Twisting verses from the qur'an? When I posted actual verses from the bible that teach and encourage actual hounour killings you keep quiet or brush it off or will you like that one fella say oh but that's the OT.

If we are to be intellectually honest and are talking about what the scriptures teach, then be honest and say you are wrong when you are wrong. The qur'an does not teach or condone honour killings. But the bible does.
Report to moderator   Logged
Thick Nick
Competitors
Getbig IV
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2208


"Some want to look good, others want to do good."


« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2012, 07:03:44 PM »

In Islam, who is it NOT ok to kill? Let's take inventory. Please if I forget any that ARE ok to kill, feel free to add.

OK to kill:

Yourself...suicide bombers.
Blashphemers...cartoon makers etc.
Infidels...non Muslims in Muslim lands
Apostates...those who try to leave Islam
Civilians...cause they pay taxes
Soldiers...the only legit target prolly
Your Wives...if they cheat
Your Children...if they shame the family
Other Muslims...different factions
Other Muslim women and children...human shields against the infidels
Those who refuse to convert...
Those who refuse to pay the tax for being non Muslim...
Homosexuals...

Did I miss any? So please explain who is left that it is NOT ok to kill? Serious question.

And I'll save you the trouble...

The crusades!!! The witch trials!!! Christians kill people too!!!
I am talking 2012 current Islamic law, so now you can stay on topic.


Question repeated since 2 Muslims posted in the thread but blantantly dodge the initial question. According to 2012 Islamic or Sharia law... what did I list that is incorrect?
Report to moderator   Logged

$
a_ahmed
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5799


Team Nasser


« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2012, 07:20:38 PM »

The way you addressed it as a 'question' is misleading as it has an obviously embedded set in stone set of statements which therefore makes it truly not a question but your own preconceived construct.

However I will address it on Monday inshAllah (God willing), I am busy.
Report to moderator   Logged
Thick Nick
Competitors
Getbig IV
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2208


"Some want to look good, others want to do good."


« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2012, 08:48:43 AM »

"crickets..."

The silence in the response to this post is deafening. Thank you. If any of you assclowns claim religion of peace ever again, I will be there to link this thread.
Report to moderator   Logged

$
bigbobs
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 9620


Islam, Nasser and Corvettes.


« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2012, 12:18:34 PM »

"crickets..."

The silence in the response to this post is deafening. Thank you. If any of you assclowns claim religion of peace ever again, I will be there to link this thread.

The answer is soldiers only.

And some say suicide bombs are allowed if against soldiers.
Report to moderator   Logged
Shizzo
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 21972


The King of Irrelevance


« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2012, 12:30:18 PM »

I'm gonna say this and you're not going to like, but you've done nothing but pick a fight since you began posting on these boards.  Demanding respect while showing virtually none to others and blasting your platitudes at whomever will respond (which 95% of the time has been just me). 

I believe one of your first statements to me was that I will spend an eternity in hell.  It's completely untrue but regardless I don't care for it.   And the article above, it isn't mine, but it certainly isn't fun when someone posts things that are either taken out of context, interpreted incorrectly or corrupted completely is it? 

Here's the reality, you've been corrupted by the king of this world and that king has made you a slave to false teachings and a false prophet.  I know you feel passionately about Islam, but I pray that you can return to the Christianity you abandoned years ago and finally experience the love, grace and mercy of the Holy Spirit.....opening your eyes to the things unseen. 

If I offended you I apologize....I sincerely do and I will continue to pray for you.  I know my words are meaningless to you, but that is my prayer. 
A Muslim and a Christian arguing on who will spend an eternity in hell.  Don't you guys see a problem here?
Report to moderator   Logged
a_ahmed
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5799


Team Nasser


« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2012, 12:35:26 PM »

"crickets..."

The silence in the response to this post is deafening. Thank you. If any of you assclowns claim religion of peace ever again, I will be there to link this thread.

Did I say when I will post on Monday a response? I said I will therefore I will. I am busy. Since your post makes so many statements it'll take some time to respond. I am busy, I have a life and don't live on here. I am also at work. Some of us have jobs you know.

I will respond, in the meantime I am at work busy working on a project.

Your comment above shows that you already have a made up mind with your preconceived constructs and are not sincere.
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 15187


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2012, 12:57:52 PM »

A Muslim and a Christian arguing on who will spend an eternity in hell.  Don't you guys see a problem here?

Actually we're not discussing the highlighted red point; although, that example was what I used to help illustrate a lack of tact on part of ahmed initially.  In many ways he came to pick a fight.....not share his faith.  I certainly consider what he says, but it's his approach in presenting it that also concerns me.  I don't mind using a bit of humor, sarcasm, intellect, outside references, online references, etc...still, I've provided a online debate to show him how a man that agrees with his position presents his case with respect plus it answered some of his other points.
Report to moderator   Logged

a_ahmed
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5799


Team Nasser


« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2012, 01:41:31 PM »

In Islam, who is it NOT ok to kill? Let's take inventory. Please if I forget any that ARE ok to kill, feel free to add.

Let me open first and foremost by saying this: Islam did not come for 'killing people' nor did Islam get revealed for 23 years so that the whole religion is about 'punishments' What you are doing is focusing on about the 0.01% while ignoring everything else. Why is it you never ask about the message of mercy in islam. How to treat your parents. How to treat the elderly. How to help the poor? How to help the orphans? Just a few things to think of. How to have a healthy marriage? How to treat each other husband and wife? How to treat children, raise children?

Islam came to GUIDE people to the true and straight path. A complete way of life, bringing guidance from God in all matters of our lives. To be righteous, to do away with corruption and bring justice and peace to the whole earth. It came to guide people away from ignorance. It came to reaffirm that which was before what all the prophets and messengers of God came to mankind for. To do good, avoid evil, and to recognize and worship our creator, the one and only everlasting God. To not worship false deities, to not follow vain desires, to bring justice and ultimately peace to all mankind. United under God.

It's not okay to kill at any time, as you make it seem ‘randomly’. Except for injustice and in war. The third are hudud punishments/capital punishments and there is due process it does not just happen and then the next second someone gets killed.



Quote
Yourself...suicide bombers.

29. O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.

As far as suicide bombings, this is an invented tactic of tamil tigers who are not Muslim. Where it started from with Muslims was in Palestine. Their psychological and physical condition is unique. In the sense that they've been occupied for generations and oppressed for generations. Powerless, no weapons to defend themselves. As such they resorted in desperation with this tactic. It's really something out of desperation and it has been justified in the same way wwii soldiers would blow themselves up with a grenade when surrounded by nazis to take them out and themselves as they knew they would die already.

Outside of Palestine it has happened with Muslims, however as of late it seems to happen wherever the US invades. Some have including the president karzai of Afghanistan claimed this is the work of private secuirty firms such as blackwater to instigate chaos to further their goal, the cia, etc... afterall the CIA invented car bombs.

There was even two incidents of foreign troops being caught planting bombs on a bridge dressed as arabs. Or one incident in particular where British soldiers dressed as arabs were setting up a car bomb. They were arrested by iraqi police. The British army broke them out and there was a brief mention of it in the news, a contreversey and then it was shoved under the rug.

God tells us to not kill ourselves. This pretty much sums it up. Suicide is not allowed in islam.

Quote
Blashphemers...cartoon makers etc.

Historically there were certain incidents of people who deliberately plotted to cause chaos in society, amongst Muslims and non Muslims. Just like this idiot who made 'innoscence of muslims' basically a gay porn... or Salman Rushdie who not only blasphemed against Islam but Christianity and Judaism and other faiths. Some very vile things. But again, Christians seem to not have a problem if marry is called a whore, or if Jesus is put in urine and blood.

If I recall there was a group of monks at a time when there was a caliph and these monks were spreading lies, rumors and vile things about Islam and Muslims. They were a small independent group. I would have to find the exact case, but in a nutshell, they were told to stop and told to repent several times. They were brought in the court of the caliph and talked to. There was more to the story but I cannot recollect it now. Ultimately most repented and stopped this as it was causing mischief. The few that didn't and persisted were executed. You have to look at it as a larger picture. They were instigating lies, and had evil intentions to cause mischief in the whole of society not only affecting muslims but non muslims as well. People were indeed alot more firm and strict in matters in the past.

Quote
Infidels...non Muslims in Muslim lands

Infidels is a christian term. There is no such word in Islam. The word kafir is used for disbelievers and it actually literally means 'those who cover up the truth'

Absolutely not. There is no justification of killing of non-muslims in muslim lands.

A muslim who would harm a Christian for being christian would be punished for this act. As is the case around one of the caliph's times... a governor's son pushed a christian man out of the way and hurt the man, the christian man complained to the caliph and the caliph ordered the muslim boy to be punished. He asked the Christian man to do the exact same to the Muslim man. The muslim did this because he said "i am muslim". Such arrogance. The Christians and Jews are told to complain to muslims for all their problems and calamities. They are under the protection of muslims.

The verses that refer to fighting and killing in the qur'an refer to actual battles. If you read the qur'an you will see that it says quite clearly. No where does it advocate random killing as non muslims seem to think.

The role of islam is to bring justice to all mankind and peace. It's not to randomly kill people.

Quote
Apostates...those who try to leave Islam

The ruling for apostasy came about when there was a group of disbelievers who plotted to undermine the moral of Muslims.

They secretly plotted to deliberately claim to join islam then overnight leave, then join, then leave, then join, then leave all one by one. The ruling came to put a stop to this and they of course stopped as they were cowardly people with only the intent of harming Islam.

The other time something of this nature occurred was when after Muhammad (pbuh) left us, a group of people started arising, certain tribes that chose not to pay zakat, and started deliberately leaving portions of islam while still claiming to be muslim. Even certain tribes claiming they each had a 'prophet' and they plotted to take over the muslims and fighting ensued as they were told to desist and repent. To follow islam in its entirety and repent or be fought. It was the leaders that were executed in these battles. After fighting the people returned back to paying zakat and fulfilling their duties as muslims.

Allowing such a group of people to exist they would spread mischief in the ummah and ultimately mischief on the earth. All the effort would have been in vain as to what Muhammad (pbuh) came to reveal to all mankind.

Quote
Civilians...cause they pay taxes
In the west refusing to pay taxes you serve prison time.

Civillians who refuse to pay the jizya lose their rights as citizens under Muslims. The jizya only applies to able non muslims. It does not apply to children, women, or elderly. Even men who are poor they do not have to pay jizya. Basically able men who work only. If you are to live under Muslims you have to pay it. It is a miserly 2%. Compared to 40% that alot of us pay in the west it is a joke. Imagine yourself arrogantly refusing to give over 10$ while you make 500$?

There is one example of Khalid Bin Walid, who was a muslim general. When he had to leave a certain region, he paid back the jizya to the non muslims as he said I will be no longer able to protect you so I give you this back.

Those who arrogantly want to live in muslim lands and start fighting muslims to avoid paying jizya will be fought back and subverted until they do or leave.

On the other hand, muslims also pay zakat, which is charity so we don't see it truly as a tax. In either case all this income from muslims and non muslims is to serve the society. It is not to be consummed by leaders.

Quote
Soldiers...the only legit target prolly

In war only. And even in war, if they are captured alive, they are to be treated well and fed, taken care of, etc... and told what islam is, and it is their choice if they embrace islam or not.

Quote
Your Wives...if they cheat

The punishment of adultery is the same as in judaism and christianity. It is death. It applies to both parties. Men and women.

Islamophobes seem to think that all these punishments apply to women only. They apply equally to both genders.

Unlike in christianity where divorce is forbidden. Islam allows divorce. If a couple is not fit for each other they can divorce. Problem solved. The children are to be still taken care of by the father while not restricted to be with either mother or father, they are their parents and there is no 'custody battles' they belong to both parents except if one side is literally harming the child.

Quote
Your Children...if they shame the family
No.  If you are refering to honor killings. There is no such thing in islam. It is in the bible, not in the qur'an.

Quote
Other Muslims...different factions
One may not kill any other Muslim as killing a muslim will send you to hell. However if a group arises, a sect arises, which claims lies and distorts Islam, while claiming it is islam yes they are to be fought until they desist, repent and return to Islam. There is only one islam. If they call it something else then they are no longer Muslims or following Islam. An example of that are the Druze. They took from each religion something but they are not muslims anymore. Claiming something not from islam as islam is like claiming you have more knowledge than God or more knowledge than the messengers and prophets of God. It is lying against them and perpetrating lies while claiming it is islam. It is misguidance upon the ummah.

Quote
Other Muslim women and children...human shields against the infidels

This is disgusting to even ask. Women and children are to be protected and safe guarded all the time. As God says men are the protecters of women. The same applies to children. This is the kind of idiocy the media spreads.

Quote
Those who refuse to convert...
Absolutely not. Wherever Muslims overthrew a government. The citizens were not forced to abandon their faith or embrace Islam. They continued to practice their faith.

To become muslim one has to know what islam is and be consciously accepting this in his heart. Anything else is therefore invalid. That is why we have the 'proclamation of faith'. Shahada. There is no god but God. And Muhammad is his messenger.

To be muslim means to be submit yourself to the will of God. You cannot be made to do this under compulsion but only in your heart. Hence the verse there is no compulsion in religion refering to becoming muslim.

Quote
Homosexuals...

Just as in Judaism and Christianity. Homosexuals are to be put to death once they are exposed or publicly advocating without repentance. They are an abomination to God going against their intended creation and a corruption upon society.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah for this.



Also lastly, in any of these cases where there is a capital punishment of death, the people are given a choice to repent and desist from their practices. If they however even advocate it in arrogance, they are to be put to death.

Quote
The crusades!!! The witch trials!!! Christians kill people too!!!
I am talking 2012 current Islamic law, so now you can stay on topic.



That which is from God remains the same. It is people who change it. Islam is the same as it was revealed. It is people who chose not to follow it but cannot change it. Christians don't know what to follow or not to follow they just follow their desires. Yesterday homosexuality was wrong, today its okay. Today beastiality is wrong, tomorrow Huh That's what happens when people follow man made laws and their own desires. Whichever the way the wind blows it goes.

Priests not being allowed to marry is not God's law. It is man made law, and look at the result. Children boys and girls are raped by priests.
Report to moderator   Logged
James
Getbig IV
****
Posts: 2814


« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2012, 01:52:47 PM »

2 Year Old Christian Girl Raped For Her Family Not Converting To Islam


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-G4LeQti90" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-G4LeQti90</a>
Report to moderator   Logged
a_ahmed
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5799


Team Nasser


« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2012, 02:00:25 PM »

2 Year Old Christian Girl Raped For Her Family Not Converting To Islam


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-G4LeQti90" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-G4LeQti90</a>

I did not watch the whole video as there is nothing that angers me more than hearing about rape or people misrepresenting islam be it muslims or non muslims.

I guess you don't seem to understand something. If a Muslim commits a crime. They are to be punished. They don't get away with a crime because they are Muslim.

If a Muslim man raped ANYBODY. They would be executed for their rape. Period. No exceptions. This is disgusting if true.

That being said, alot of these evangelical missionary videos/websites spread lies and are not trust worthy. The claim that she was raped for not converting to islam. Just WTF? First that is not islam, secondly, probably another evangelical bs lie. Just like pamela geller and her 'muslims are burning people and eating them' bull. In fact in ironically there was a group of Nigerian christians who burning muslims and eating them (was on bbc they were fighting for who gets to eat a muslim's heart). Yet clearly canibalism is not in christianity and this is some filthy vood magic like practice!

I remember when I used to go to christian school their whole emphasis was on 'honor killings' in pakistan... and although i was not muslim at the time, I kept getting angry at them claiming this was from Islam when I knew quite clearly it was from tribal cultural filthy practices rather than Islam. People who are not following Islam but have Muslim names.
Report to moderator   Logged
avxo
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4097


You've given me multiple traumatic brain injuries!


« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2012, 06:41:03 PM »

Of course... nothing bad is done in Islam's name. Even the stuff done in Islam's name.  Roll Eyes
Report to moderator   Logged
Thick Nick
Competitors
Getbig IV
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2208


"Some want to look good, others want to do good."


« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2012, 05:42:41 AM »

Let me open first and foremost by saying this: Islam did not come for 'killing people' nor did Islam get revealed for 23 years so that the whole religion is about 'punishments' What you are doing is focusing on about the 0.01% while ignoring everything else. Why is it you never ask about the message of mercy in islam. How to treat your parents. How to treat the elderly. How to help the poor? How to help the orphans? Just a few things to think of. How to have a healthy marriage? How to treat each other husband and wife? How to treat children, raise children?

Islam came to GUIDE people to the true and straight path. A complete way of life, bringing guidance from God in all matters of our lives. To be righteous, to do away with corruption and bring justice and peace to the whole earth. It came to guide people away from ignorance. It came to reaffirm that which was before what all the prophets and messengers of God came to mankind for. To do good, avoid evil, and to recognize and worship our creator, the one and only everlasting God. To not worship false deities, to not follow vain desires, to bring justice and ultimately peace to all mankind. United under God.

It's not okay to kill at any time, as you make it seem ‘randomly’. Except for injustice and in war. The third are hudud punishments/capital punishments and there is due process it does not just happen and then the next second someone gets killed.



29. O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.

As far as suicide bombings, this is an invented tactic of tamil tigers who are not Muslim. Where it started from with Muslims was in Palestine. Their psychological and physical condition is unique. In the sense that they've been occupied for generations and oppressed for generations. Powerless, no weapons to defend themselves. As such they resorted in desperation with this tactic. It's really something out of desperation and it has been justified in the same way wwii soldiers would blow themselves up with a grenade when surrounded by nazis to take them out and themselves as they knew they would die already.

Outside of Palestine it has happened with Muslims, however as of late it seems to happen wherever the US invades. Some have including the president karzai of Afghanistan claimed this is the work of private secuirty firms such as blackwater to instigate chaos to further their goal, the cia, etc... afterall the CIA invented car bombs.

There was even two incidents of foreign troops being caught planting bombs on a bridge dressed as arabs. Or one incident in particular where British soldiers dressed as arabs were setting up a car bomb. They were arrested by iraqi police. The British army broke them out and there was a brief mention of it in the news, a contreversey and then it was shoved under the rug.

God tells us to not kill ourselves. This pretty much sums it up. Suicide is not allowed in islam.

Historically there were certain incidents of people who deliberately plotted to cause chaos in society, amongst Muslims and non Muslims. Just like this idiot who made 'innoscence of muslims' basically a gay porn... or Salman Rushdie who not only blasphemed against Islam but Christianity and Judaism and other faiths. Some very vile things. But again, Christians seem to not have a problem if marry is called a whore, or if Jesus is put in urine and blood.

If I recall there was a group of monks at a time when there was a caliph and these monks were spreading lies, rumors and vile things about Islam and Muslims. They were a small independent group. I would have to find the exact case, but in a nutshell, they were told to stop and told to repent several times. They were brought in the court of the caliph and talked to. There was more to the story but I cannot recollect it now. Ultimately most repented and stopped this as it was causing mischief. The few that didn't and persisted were executed. You have to look at it as a larger picture. They were instigating lies, and had evil intentions to cause mischief in the whole of society not only affecting muslims but non muslims as well. People were indeed alot more firm and strict in matters in the past.

Infidels is a christian term. There is no such word in Islam. The word kafir is used for disbelievers and it actually literally means 'those who cover up the truth'

Absolutely not. There is no justification of killing of non-muslims in muslim lands.

A muslim who would harm a Christian for being christian would be punished for this act. As is the case around one of the caliph's times... a governor's son pushed a christian man out of the way and hurt the man, the christian man complained to the caliph and the caliph ordered the muslim boy to be punished. He asked the Christian man to do the exact same to the Muslim man. The muslim did this because he said "i am muslim". Such arrogance. The Christians and Jews are told to complain to muslims for all their problems and calamities. They are under the protection of muslims.

The verses that refer to fighting and killing in the qur'an refer to actual battles. If you read the qur'an you will see that it says quite clearly. No where does it advocate random killing as non muslims seem to think.

The role of islam is to bring justice to all mankind and peace. It's not to randomly kill people.

The ruling for apostasy came about when there was a group of disbelievers who plotted to undermine the moral of Muslims.

They secretly plotted to deliberately claim to join islam then overnight leave, then join, then leave, then join, then leave all one by one. The ruling came to put a stop to this and they of course stopped as they were cowardly people with only the intent of harming Islam.

The other time something of this nature occurred was when after Muhammad (pbuh) left us, a group of people started arising, certain tribes that chose not to pay zakat, and started deliberately leaving portions of islam while still claiming to be muslim. Even certain tribes claiming they each had a 'prophet' and they plotted to take over the muslims and fighting ensued as they were told to desist and repent. To follow islam in its entirety and repent or be fought. It was the leaders that were executed in these battles. After fighting the people returned back to paying zakat and fulfilling their duties as muslims.

Allowing such a group of people to exist they would spread mischief in the ummah and ultimately mischief on the earth. All the effort would have been in vain as to what Muhammad (pbuh) came to reveal to all mankind.
In the west refusing to pay taxes you serve prison time.

Civillians who refuse to pay the jizya lose their rights as citizens under Muslims. The jizya only applies to able non muslims. It does not apply to children, women, or elderly. Even men who are poor they do not have to pay jizya. Basically able men who work only. If you are to live under Muslims you have to pay it. It is a miserly 2%. Compared to 40% that alot of us pay in the west it is a joke. Imagine yourself arrogantly refusing to give over 10$ while you make 500$?

There is one example of Khalid Bin Walid, who was a muslim general. When he had to leave a certain region, he paid back the jizya to the non muslims as he said I will be no longer able to protect you so I give you this back.

Those who arrogantly want to live in muslim lands and start fighting muslims to avoid paying jizya will be fought back and subverted until they do or leave.

On the other hand, muslims also pay zakat, which is charity so we don't see it truly as a tax. In either case all this income from muslims and non muslims is to serve the society. It is not to be consummed by leaders.

In war only. And even in war, if they are captured alive, they are to be treated well and fed, taken care of, etc... and told what islam is, and it is their choice if they embrace islam or not.

The punishment of adultery is the same as in judaism and christianity. It is death. It applies to both parties. Men and women.

Islamophobes seem to think that all these punishments apply to women only. They apply equally to both genders.

Unlike in christianity where divorce is forbidden. Islam allows divorce. If a couple is not fit for each other they can divorce. Problem solved. The children are to be still taken care of by the father while not restricted to be with either mother or father, they are their parents and there is no 'custody battles' they belong to both parents except if one side is literally harming the child.
No.  If you are refering to honor killings. There is no such thing in islam. It is in the bible, not in the qur'an.
One may not kill any other Muslim as killing a muslim will send you to hell. However if a group arises, a sect arises, which claims lies and distorts Islam, while claiming it is islam yes they are to be fought until they desist, repent and return to Islam. There is only one islam. If they call it something else then they are no longer Muslims or following Islam. An example of that are the Druze. They took from each religion something but they are not muslims anymore. Claiming something not from islam as islam is like claiming you have more knowledge than God or more knowledge than the messengers and prophets of God. It is lying against them and perpetrating lies while claiming it is islam. It is misguidance upon the ummah.

This is disgusting to even ask. Women and children are to be protected and safe guarded all the time. As God says men are the protecters of women. The same applies to children. This is the kind of idiocy the media spreads.
Absolutely not. Wherever Muslims overthrew a government. The citizens were not forced to abandon their faith or embrace Islam. They continued to practice their faith.

To become muslim one has to know what islam is and be consciously accepting this in his heart. Anything else is therefore invalid. That is why we have the 'proclamation of faith'. Shahada. There is no god but God. And Muhammad is his messenger.

To be muslim means to be submit yourself to the will of God. You cannot be made to do this under compulsion but only in your heart. Hence the verse there is no compulsion in religion refering to becoming muslim.

Just as in Judaism and Christianity. Homosexuals are to be put to death once they are exposed or publicly advocating without repentance. They are an abomination to God going against their intended creation and a corruption upon society.

God destroyed Sodom and Gomorah for this.



Also lastly, in any of these cases where there is a capital punishment of death, the people are given a choice to repent and desist from their practices. If they however even advocate it in arrogance, they are to be put to death.



That which is from God remains the same. It is people who change it. Islam is the same as it was revealed. It is people who chose not to follow it but cannot change it. Christians don't know what to follow or not to follow they just follow their desires. Yesterday homosexuality was wrong, today its okay. Today beastiality is wrong, tomorrow Huh That's what happens when people follow man made laws and their own desires. Whichever the way the wind blows it goes.

Priests not being allowed to marry is not God's law. It is man made law, and look at the result. Children boys and girls are raped by priests.

Thanks for responding. Out of curiosity though... all of the above are taking place every day in the Muslim world... no way to dispute that... so you are saying all of the people who are commiting these "crimes" are breaking Islamic law?

If that is what you are saying... where is the outrage from the "real" Muslims and fatwas on those committing these crimes instead of the makers of some stupid movie? By your statement... shouldn't those who stormed the embassies and breaking Islamic law be the ones that are arrested for unjustified killing? The guys who behead people on video... those who do honor killings... suicide bombers... all breaking Islamic law? And not one bit of rioting or unrest? Hrmmm

Your response did exactly what I knew it would... draw out the hipocrasy of Islam. Every single one of the things I listed can be found in numerous examples over and over as accepted behavior... the blind cleric saying civilians can be killed because they pay taxes to the US gov. is on video etc.

Why don't you quote the Kuran verse that says it is ok to do ANYTHING to decieve non believers? Such as say it is wrong to kill people... and then kill them. Your response is the same old tired one people have been using forever. When you good old "real" Muslims start showing some outrage at all these people breaking Islamic law, maybe you will be taken serious. Until then, Islam will be seen for what it is... a death cult following the teachings of a child molester, who bent older religions into something that suited his sick blood lust and sick desires of how to treat women.

When you are ready to post a real honest answer to my question then maybe we can have a real discussion. The real answer from you and your twisted belief system is... that everything I posted is 100% true and you either agree with those tactics OR you are outraged by all of these people breaking Islamic law and you are gonna do something about it. Like protest or riot against the ones breaking Islamic law not some cartoonists or child who can't fight back. Your a fucking coward is what you are.
Report to moderator   Logged

$
avxo
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4097


You've given me multiple traumatic brain injuries!


« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2012, 09:25:39 AM »

It's not okay to kill at any time [...] except [...]

So it's OK to kill anytime for "injustice." And who defines injustice?


Historically there were certain incidents of people who deliberately plotted to cause chaos in society, amongst Muslims and non Muslims. Just like this idiot who made 'innoscence of muslims' basically a gay porn... or Salman Rushdie who not only blasphemed against Islam but Christianity and Judaism and other faiths.

So it's OK to kill those who say things that you find offensive?

Some very vile things.

So it's OK to kill those who do things you judge to be vile?


afterall the CIA invented car bombs.

Hardly. But even if they did, what does that say? Once something is invented, the gloves are off and the invention should be used with impunity?


Absolutely not. There is no justification of killing of non-muslims in muslim lands.

I'm waiting for hear an "except" - after all, you just finished telling us how it's OK to kill people for injustice. And those who make "vile things."


The Christians and Jews are told to complain to muslims for all their problems and calamities. They are under the protection of muslims.

Some protection...


The role of islam is to bring justice to all mankind and peace. It's not to randomly kill people.

For some definition of justice and some definition of peace.


The ruling for apostasy came about when there was a group of disbelievers who plotted to undermine the moral of Muslims.

And then it was OK to kill... got it.


They secretly plotted to deliberately claim to join islam then overnight leave, then join, then leave, then join, then leave all one by one. The ruling came to put a stop to this and they of course stopped as they were cowardly people with only the intent of harming Islam.

How is Islam hurt by people joining and leaving repeatedly? This story doesn't hold water.


The punishment of adultery is the same as in judaism and christianity. It is death. It applies to both parties. Men and women.

So the no killing thing is out... but at least "everybody else was doing it!" As if that, somehow, makes it ok. What does that say about all three religions?


Unlike in christianity where divorce is forbidden. Islam allows divorce. If a couple is not fit for each other they can divorce. Problem solved. The children are to be still taken care of by the father while not restricted to be with either mother or father, they are their parents and there is no 'custody battles' they belong to both parents except if one side is literally harming the child.

Truly an enlightened viewpoint... now perhaps if you say it three times it will actually be considered binding and final.


No.  If you are refering to honor killings. There is no such thing in islam. It is in the bible, not in the qur'an.

Of course. Everything bad is found elsewhere, and nothing bad is found in your particular grimoire...


One may not kill any other Muslim as killing a muslim will send you to hell. However if [...]

Again with the  "you can't kill ever, unless [reason]". I think people are onto you.


This is disgusting to even ask. Women and children are to be protected and safe guarded all the time. As God says men are the protecters of women. The same applies to children. This is the kind of idiocy the media spreads.

Why would women need protectors?


To become muslim one has to know what islam is and be consciously accepting this in his heart. Anything else is therefore invalid. That is why we have the 'proclamation of faith'. Shahada. There is no god but God. And Muhammad is his messenger.

Repeating vacuous words doesn't signify rational acceptance. Hell, Everlast incorporated the shahadah in one of his songs. Many kids repeat that without knowing what it means.


Just as in Judaism and Christianity. Homosexuals are to be put to death once they are exposed or publicly advocating without repentance. They are an abomination to God going against their intended creation and a corruption upon society.

So it's not OK to kill in Islam... except when the person to be killed is a gay. How many exceptions does that make now? Plus, how can anyone act against their "intended creation"? Can't your god just take away the desire of a gay to suck cock and make him want to fuck pussy? Why does your god even allow such "abominations" to exist?


Also lastly, in any of these cases where there is a capital punishment of death, the people are given a choice to repent and desist from their practices. If they however even advocate it in arrogance, they are to be put to death.

Oh, well that makes it OK then. Truly a civilized, rational and just religion. Roll Eyes


Priests not being allowed to marry is not God's law. It is man made law, and look at the result. Children boys and girls are raped by priests.

Right... priests fuck boys because they can't fuck women. If only some pussy had been made available to them... Roll Eyes
Report to moderator   Logged
Man of Steel
Moderator
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 15187


Isaiah40:28-31 ✝ Romans10:9 ✝ 1Peter3:15


WWW
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2012, 09:27:10 AM »

No, unfortunately I don't have the capacity to address all your posts point by point (please refer to avxo or syntaxmachine for that type of discussion).  They are excellent in that regard. 

You just interpret it blindly... Grin

I don't think "rational acceptance" means what you think it means.


The Olympians also flourished alongside sciences, philosophy and all other sorts of works. What does that prove?


And what does your thinking tell you when the Qur'an makes ridiculous assertions like the heavens and earth and everything else being created in six days? (50:38) What does your thinking tell you about the ridiculous statement that your imaginary friend "made the earth as a fixed abode" (27:16). I could go on, but I don't want you to overthink, would we?


Yes, I'm sure that learning how to stop using your eight brain cells was a long and arduous process...


And Pastafarianism is the only absolutely pastalicious religion. So?


Islam is just as tainted by idolatry as every other religion out there. Don't you pray towards the Kaaba? And it's been as "tampered and adultered" by men at least as much as any other religion out there. The facts speak for themselves.


Objection. Assumes facts no in evidence. First you have to define God, prove that it exists, prove that he intended to send a message, that the messenger is question is the medium through which the message was delivered, that the message has not been corrupted, and that the message is still valid today. In other words, you have a lot of work to do. Off you go.

If you aren't feeling up to that, perhaps you'll answer a single question for us: why did your almighty imaginary friend need a messenger? Why couldn't he make, say, the stars all line up to spell his name? That would be a much more powerful message that sending a goat herder.


Even if this were true, what does it prove? Nothing, that's what. Oh, and did you enjoy all those details about how he took the virginity of his child-bride with his prophetic penis? Why, perhaps he even told her that "I'm about to prophesize, so swallow, don't spit." Such a man!


That's not true. You can get more information about random people on Facebook. And pictures to boot!


Really? You have intimate details about his bowel movements?


It's quite clear you don't know much about security. Chains of trust of the type you describe are notoriously weak, and for good reason...


Because you're stupid and don't want to deal with the world as it is, but with the world as you wish it to be.


I think you copy-pasted your craigslist "personal" ad by mistake there. 


 Roll Eyes


It's hard to find what you aren't looking for.

Welcome to the Getbig religion board ahmed.
Report to moderator   Logged

avxo
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 4097


You've given me multiple traumatic brain injuries!


« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2012, 09:32:25 AM »

Welcome to the Getbig religion board ahmed.

*bows* Wink
Report to moderator   Logged
a_ahmed
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 5799


Team Nasser


« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2012, 12:42:45 PM »

Thanks for responding. Out of curiosity though... all of the above are taking place every day in the Muslim world... no way to dispute that... so you are saying all of the people who are commiting these "crimes" are breaking Islamic law?

If they are breaking islamic law, for example a muslim raping somebody doesn't mater who/what/reason/etc... they would be punished under islam.

Unfortunately we do not have a caliphate and the west does not want one to happen as it would united the whole muslim world.

Quote
Your response did exactly what I knew it would... draw out the hipocrasy of Islam. Every single one of the things I listed can be found in numerous examples over and over as accepted behavior... the blind cleric saying civilians can be killed because they pay taxes to the US gov. is on video etc.

No it just shows that you were not sincere and that I wasted my time even responding to you. You see muslims as 'barbaric' and cite various claims. But apparently America is 'civillized' when it kills and maims millions with expensive weapons.

Quote
Why don't you quote the Kuran verse that says it is ok to do ANYTHING to decieve non believers? Such as say it is wrong to kill people... and then kill them. Your response is the same old tired one people have been using forever. When you good old "real" Muslims start showing some outrage at all these people breaking Islamic law, maybe you will be taken serious. Until then, Islam will be seen for what it is... a death cult following the teachings of a child molester, who bent older religions into something that suited his sick blood lust and sick desires of how to treat women.

There is no such verse. You are talking ignorantly and brain filled to think what you want to think.

Quote
When you are ready to post a real honest answer to my question then maybe we can have a real discussion. The real answer from you and your twisted belief system is... that everything I posted is 100% true and you either agree with those tactics OR you are outraged by all of these people breaking Islamic law and you are gonna do something about it. Like protest or riot against the ones breaking Islamic law not some cartoonists or child who can't fight back. Your a fucking coward is what you are.

Will you ever ask an 'honest and sincere question' or just use it to spew more ignoramus comments and anger of yours.

It's funny you don't find it cowardly that american troops and armies come with the most expensive weaponery to kill foreigners.

These protests are not just the anger at the continous defamation and lying against muslims, it is the accumulation of decades of oppression, dictatorships, wars, etc... that wouldn't have happened if it weren't for your meddling.
Report to moderator   Logged
Thick Nick
Competitors
Getbig IV
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 2208


"Some want to look good, others want to do good."


« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2012, 07:15:24 PM »

And not a single word of condemnation for the behavior... not a denial of it taking place. Just more finger pointing at the west. So it is less of a crime for a Muslim to not follow Islamic law then it is for a non Muslim to not follow Islamic law... so it is all justified. A sick and twisted mindset.
Report to moderator   Logged

$
Radical Plato
Getbig V
*****
Gender: Male
Posts: 10558


Rhetoric is the art of ruling the minds of men.


« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2012, 09:11:03 PM »

How is beheading, suicide bombing and using 4 year old children to endorse heinous crimes doing good or bringing justice and peace to the world.  Muslims are the most confused, hypocritical and juvenile individuals on the planet.


* mn_tikritcarbombkk9014499x337.jpg (64.1 KB, 499x337 - viewed 71 times.)

* 120915BeheadThem.jpg (480.67 KB, 765x1019 - viewed 71 times.)
Report to moderator   Logged

V
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Theme created by Egad Community. Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.20 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!