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a_ahmed
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« on: September 19, 2012, 01:13:40 PM »

So since the local resident atheist swamped a thread for christian/muslims. I thought I'd create a seperate thread.

The atheist asked who is God?

God is our creator the master of all creation.

We are dependant on Him, but he is independent of us.

God is the first and last: eternal

Nothing is comparable to Him in all of creation so that includes various creatures, objects, animate or inanimate, etc...

He is not in 'the creation' or creation itself.

God has no gender, age, limiting factors of the physical. God is not bound by the rules He created for the universe.

With Him is all knowledge
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 01:26:19 PM »

Oh ok.
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 01:26:47 PM »

So since the local resident atheist swamped a thread for christian/muslims. I thought I'd create a seperate thread.

I don't think you can just restrict threads arbitrarily.


The atheist asked who is God?

He did. Let's see how you do Smiley


God is our creator the master of all creation.

That answers nothing and it assumes a whole lot.


We are dependant on Him, but he is independent of us.

We are dependent on the sun but the sun is independent on us, but of course, that tells us nothing about the sun itself...


God is the first and last: eternal

You keep using words but you say nothing.


Nothing is comparable to Him in all of creation so that includes various creatures, objects, animate or inanimate, etc...

How do you know this? Did you compare him?


He is not in 'the creation' or creation itself.

How do you know this? And what does it tell us about God?


God has no gender, age, limiting factors of the physical. God is not bound by the rules He created for the universe.

But can you maybe list some attributes that God has? Because you know... nothing also has no gender, age and physical limiting factors and it's not bound by any rules. So how can I distinguish your God from nothing at all?


With Him is all knowledge

What does that even mean?
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 01:33:28 PM »

God revealed this to us through consecutive messengers and prophets.
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 01:40:57 PM »

God revealed this to us through consecutive messengers and prophets.
Of course he did.

And you are never allowed to question that.
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 01:48:01 PM »

Of course he did.

And you are never allowed to question that.

I do. Is it coming out of someone trust worthy or someone corrupted? Someone seeking personal gains or wealth of this world? Has what they predicted come true or has it failed that test? A lot of people have claimed to be prophets and messengers.
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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 01:50:18 PM »

I do. Is it coming out of someone trust worthy or someone corrupted? Someone seeking personal gains or wealth of this world? Has what they predicted come true or has it failed that test? A lot of people have claimed to be prophets and messengers.
Right. No one is profiting from you not being allowed to question your religion and following it blindly.

Wait, whose point are you trying to make? I honestly can't tell anymore.
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« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 01:54:09 PM »

God revealed this to us through consecutive messengers and prophets.

We haven't even established what the term "God" means, much less that he exists. Let's not jump the gun and go to prophets and messengers.
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 01:55:21 PM »

We haven't even established what the term "God" means, much less that he exists. Let's not jump the gun and go to prophets and messengers.

God is our creator. That is the first truth we accept as believers.

"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63)

"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)

Your response was "That answers nothing and it assumes a whole lot. "
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 02:07:03 PM »

God is our creator. That is the first truth we accept as believers.

"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63)

"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)

Your response was "That answers nothing and it assumes a whole lot. "
Congratulations on putting tradition before logic.

PS. You're what's wrong with the world.

Grow up.

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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 02:07:17 PM »

So since the local resident atheist swamped a thread for christian/muslims. I thought I'd create a seperate thread.

The atheist asked who is God?

God is our creator the master of all creation.

We are dependant on Him, but he is independent of us.

God is the first and last: eternal

Nothing is comparable to Him in all of creation so that includes various creatures, objects, animate or inanimate, etc...

He is not in 'the creation' or creation itself.

God has no gender, age, limiting factors of the physical. God is not bound by the rules He created for the universe.

With Him is all knowledge
As a Christian I agree with everything except that God the Father is male as is God the Son in Jesus Christ.  I don't recall if verses speak to the God the Holy Spirit as male or not....worth a look actually.

I believe God is in his creation through those that he lives within (and created).

I also grasp that everything you've just said or I've added is meaningless to aths and ags.  

I only add that my best evidence for God is in the form of the Holy Spirit that indwells his body of believers.  First comes the desire to know the risen Christ through faith and then comes the validation of the new relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit.   The tangible encounters with the Holy Spirit are a life changing experience for most.....not all......but most.  Salvation through Jesus Christ is available to all and the presense of the Holy Spirit can be sensed and felt by believers that earnestly, humbly and honestly want to experience it.   That said, the historical and archeological proof is great, but nothing like the presence of the Holy Spirit....it's awesome.....awesome!!

  
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« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 02:19:24 PM »

If you agree with everything I said you would be aware what the first commandment instructs, just like the qur'an that nothing compares to God in the creation or as in the bible it's described, neither the earth, heaven or water. Jesus is comparable to humans. Jesus is a human.

God is not the creation nor in his creation. The later of which is called pantheism. Believing that God physically 'dwells' in His creation. Certain idolators would say such things of idols.  And hindus would describe God in the creation a belief in pantheism not monotheism.

This is not the teachings of Jesus yet again.. but the teachings of later Christians... you are not doing service to this thread by bringing exclusively christian beliefs that someone will simply argue with as I was arguing with you in the other thread about the verses that indicate Jesus is not God and get ridicule for citing that God is a man.

Furthermore saying God is male, is your own words. God never uttered such thing. That would mean God has a male reproductive organ... God CREATED genders... God has no gender. You are being deluded yet again by Pauline/church teachings, not Jesus' own teachings or whats said in the scriptures... again saying God is a man when Jesus said no such thing and kept calling towards the same God of Moses, God of Abraham, etc... The one and only. Hear oh Israel your Lord God is one.

Science merely is able to disprove false deities, but it does not disprove God.
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« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 02:20:28 PM »

God is our creator.

That says nothing at all. And it assumes a whole lot: namely that we were created. There's no proof of that.


That is the first truth we accept as believers.

But is it rational to accept something you cannot define or understand?


"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63)

You're quoting a book that's, supposedly, Allah's word as proof that Allah exists. That won't work. The book has no validity until you can define what Allah is.


"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)

See above.


Your response was "That answers nothing and it assumes a whole lot. "

Right, it answers nothing because it doesn't define what the term "God" means or give any attributes. And it assumes a whole lot, because without first establishing what God means it asserts, without any evidence, that this undefined and unknown entity created all the creatures on earth.

First you define what God is - providing specific attributes that allow us to distinguish God from, say, a potato, or an alien from the 5th dimension. You must do this without resorting to the texts that God supposedly authored. Because you must prove that God authored them. And before you can prove that you must first indepedently define what "god" means and prove that the entity in question exists.
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« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2012, 02:24:36 PM »

That says nothing at all. And it assumes a whole lot: namely that we were created. There's no proof of that.

You say there isn't proof. I say otherwise. Now what?

Quote
But is it rational to accept something you cannot define or understand?
I understand it, I defined it. You don't accept my understanding or my definition.

Quote
You're quoting a book that's, supposedly, Allah's word as proof that Allah exists. That won't work. The book has no validity until you can define what Allah is.

I did define who God is. However you reject God and you reject the qur'an because you don't believe in God to begin with.

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First you define what God is - providing specific attributes that allow us to distinguish God from, say, a potato, or an alien from the 5th dimension. You must do this without resorting to the texts that God supposedly authored. Because you must prove that God authored them. And before you can prove that you must first indepedently define what "god" means and prove that the entity in question exists.

God is one and unique. Eternal. God does not resemble His creation. So comparing God to His creation such as a potato or even a '5th dimension alien' is not God.

And again I restate God is our creator.

Or what is your alternative explanation if we are 'not created' and we can talk about the proofs for creation? This?:

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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2012, 02:38:30 PM »

You say there isn't proof. I say otherwise. Now what?

Provide it.


I understand it, I defined it. You don't accept my understanding or my definition.

I don't think you understand what "definition" means.


I did define who God is. However you reject God and you reject the qur'an because you don't believe in God to begin with.

Before I could reject God, the concept would have to have some meaning. As it stands now, I don't even bother considering the concept. When someone can provide with a rational, concrete definition then I will examine it and decide whether to reject it or accept it.


God is one and unique.

So are you. You're one. And unique. No other like you exists; even if you have a monozygotic (i.e. genetically identical) twin, you're still a different, and quite unique, person.


Eternal.

So is the Universe, what with time being a property of it.


God does not resemble His creation.

How do you know this? And can you tell us what he does resemble?


So comparing God to His creation such as a potato or even a '5th dimension alien' is not God.

So far all you've only told us what God doesn't have: things like age and gender. Well, nothing also has no age and no gender... how can I distinguish your God from nothing?


And again I restate God is our creator.

Please prove that we require a creator, and that that creator is "God".


Or what is your alternative explanation? This?:



Our understanding of the evidence so far strongly suggests something along those lines, yes.

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« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2012, 02:39:33 PM »

Okay. So to not waste my time with your every sentence quoting style.

So in a nutshell you believe that we are not created by God/Creator/Intelligent Designer. Rather you believe that we were monkies that 'evolved'. Correct?

FYI the universe is not eternal, it had a beginning and was created. Big bang? No not porno.
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« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2012, 02:51:58 PM »

So in a nutshell you believe that we are not created by God/intelligent designer. Rather you believe that we were monkies that 'evolved'. Correct?

I do not believe we were created no. My belief is that life was a chance occurrence; that it flourished, and that we have evolved.

FYI the universe is not eternal, it had a beginning and was created. Big bang? No not porno.

It's true that the Universe had a beginning - what we now call the Big Bang. But that's not incompatible with it also being eternal. I will explain again that time is a property of the Universe itself, and that time has existed for as long as the Universe has existed and vice versa. The word "eternal" is meaningless without a temporal progression.

I guess you could quibble and argue that something eternal has neither a beginning nor an end; it's true that under that definition the Universe isn't eternal. But I don't think that particular definition is helpful or grants us any particular insight to make it preferable.
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« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2012, 02:56:06 PM »

Okay now we are unravelling the mystery that dwelt in this atheist's faith.


I do not believe we were created no. My belief is that life was a chance occurrence; that it flourished, and that we have evolved.

YOUR BELIEF is that it was a chance occurence and 'somehow' magically flourished and then magically 'evolved'. I don't find your belief rational at all. Okay so this is where we differ and we should focus on.
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« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2012, 03:02:30 PM »

Okay now we are unravelling the mystery that dwelt in this atheist's faith.

Are we now? Ooh!


YOUR BELIEF is that it was a chance occurence and 'somehow' magically flourished and then magically 'evolved'. I don't find your belief rational at all. Okay so this is where we differ and we should focus on.

The difference between my belief and yours is that mine is rooted in observable evidence, science and logic and that I remain open to the possibility that I am wrong and to being convinced that I am wrong. Yours is rooted in magic and superstition and you refuse to consider the possibility that you are wrong.

I'm thinking that perhaps you didn't unravel quite what you thought you unraveled. Grin
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« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2012, 03:06:34 PM »

Are we now? Ooh!


The difference between my belief and yours is that mine is rooted in observable evidence, science and logic and that I remain open to the possibility that I am wrong and to being convinced that I am wrong. Yours is rooted in magic and superstition and you refuse to consider the possibility that you are wrong.

I'm thinking that perhaps you didn't unravel quite what you thought you unraveled. Grin

Well in case you are wrong, maybe you should change your faith in chance occurences and accidents and maybe consider a creator? You are open to possibilities right?

"observable evidence, science and logic".

Okay. Who said I don't observe or rationalize? Use my observations as evidence? Who says I don't use or know about science? Who says I don't follow logic? From a young age before ever touching a book of religion my first books were on astronomy, biology, physics. And in fact I love deductive reasoning and logic.

To me evolution is nothing but magic and superstition. No different than Xmen, spiderman, superman, wonder woman FAAAR from reality or what is observable. Citing imaginary numbers such as '100 million years' or 'millions of years ago' is not proof. Neither are pieces of bone God knows where from (hah pun intended)

An uneducated and ignorant bedouin may be a tad bit smarter than you when they see a tent, and think and realize it had an origin, maker and an owner. He will observe the world around him and think, maybe the world must have had an origin, a maker and an owner. People don't magically come to believe in things. They think.

Evidence? How about DNA? How about our reproductive organs, male and female? They to me are evidence of a creator. Shall we go on?
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2012, 03:29:25 PM »

Well in case you are wrong, maybe you should change your faith in chance occurences and accidents and maybe consider a creator?

If rational, logically supported evidence was presented, then I would.


You are open to possibilities right?

Yes. Rational, logically supported possibilities.



So you are open to changing your belief/faith through "observable evidence, science and logic".

Of course. Isn't that the hallmark of any rational man and good scientist?


Okay. Who said I don't observe or rationalize? Use my observations as evidence? Who says I don't use or know about science? Who says I don't follow logic? From a young age before ever touching a book of religion my first books were on astronomy, biology, physics. And in fact I love deductive reasoning and logic.

That's great.


To me evolution is nothing but magic and superstition. No different than Xmen, spiderman, superman, wonder woman FAAAR from reality or what is observable. Citing imaginary numbers such as '100 million years' or 'millions of years ago' is not proof. Neither are pieces of bone God knows where from (hah pun intended)

Oh... Remember just a few lines before this when you asked "Who says I don't use or know about science?" I submit that you answered that question yourself. If you consider evolution "magic" and "superstition" then I can only conclude that you know little to nothing about science in general and evolution in particular.


An ignorant bedouin may see a tent, and think and realize it had an origin, maker and an owner. He will observe the world around him and think, the world must have had an origin, a maker and an owner. Sure that may be primitive observation, but it is observation, people don't magically come to believe in things.

Oh the irony Wink

Our Bedouin friend may realize all that. But does that analogy scale? The answer may surprise you...


Evidence?

Yes please!


How about DNA?

How about it? I don't see "Copyright © Allah" anywhere in the DNA. Laboratory experiments have showed that the proteins behind the four base pairs can be created from raw materials without any divine intervention.


How about our reproductive organs, male and female?

How about them? Do you feel that they prove we were created? How exactly?


They to me are evidence of a creator. Shall we go on?

So you "feel" that genitals indicate that we were created. Alas those feelings don't necessarily reflect reality. Can you provide any actual, concrete, incontrovertible evidence of design? I'll bet you can't.
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2012, 03:42:12 PM »

Oh... Remember just a few lines before this when you asked "Who says I don't use or know about science?" I submit that you answered that question yourself. If you consider evolution "magic" and "superstition" then I can only conclude that you know little to nothing about science in general and evolution in particular.

Yes I do, because it to me is not science. Even if there are classes and majors on evolution studies... there are also classes and majors on genetic engineering keyword ENGINEERING. It takes a mover, a maker, an engineer, an intelligent designer. Science is a tool to observe something, prove something and repeat that something. You learn all about DNA, but you did not make it to begin with. You then prove that you can alter it or recreate it even. But then arrogantly say naaah not a creature it was just chance but what WE are doing is engineering DUUUH we are intelligent evolved monkies!

Darwinism and evolution theory is the faith of many atheists I am sure, but it is to me not science at all but mere conjecture and wishful thinking in arrogance of denying God but sticking to it as it is your ONLY faith you can depend on as an atheist.

Observing a few pieces of bones and organizing them in a certain manner then claiming they must have 'evolved' over millions of years into each other (eg: species) is not science to me at all.

Windows was created by microsoft. Some alien coming to our planet and seeing windows 3.1, windows 95, windows 2000, Xp, 7, etc... will not say HMMM it must have evolved over millions of years. Or even a porsche 911 or a mitsubishi evolution (lol), these people if they saw our remnants but no humans wouldn't go AAAH HAA evolution !

Science is able to observe the raw ingredients around us and how they react, what they are, great. It is not proving any such process of 'evolution' of creatures basically accidentally popping out of no where. Sea creatures coming to land, land creatures flying. Etc...



Hence my xmen/spiderman commentary. That's how unsophisticated to me it is. Magic and wishful thinking

Quote
How about it? I don't see "Copyright © Allah" anywhere in the DNA. Laboratory experiments have showed that the proteins behind the four base pairs can be created from raw materials without any divine intervention.

Human intervention?

Right so you understand the raw materials. So they all magically came together to form a human being or x number of other creatures or their components?

Look look! This forum magically compiled its' own code and came on the internet!

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So you "feel" that genitals indicate that we were created. Alas those feelings don't necessarily reflect reality. Can you provide any actual, concrete, incontrovertible evidence of design? I'll bet you can't.

Yes, because if it weren't for the perfect balance of things in the body (eg: hormones, nutrition, etc...) and healthy perfectly functional organs (both unique in each gender). You and I my friend would not exist, and fertility clinics of today would be out of business.

Did darwin suddenly go AH evolution, I don't need to procreate anymore. I'm just going to sit around or walk in the sun and I will EVOLVE
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2012, 04:01:58 PM »

Yes I do, because it to me is not science.

Oh well.. that changes everything! Roll Eyes


Even if there are classes and majors on evolution studies... there are also classes and majors on genetic engineering keyword ENGINEERING. It takes a mover, a maker, an engineer, an intelligent designer. Science is a tool to observe something, prove something and repeat that something.

This line of reasoning just flat out fails... so since we can now do genetic engineering, this somehow makes evolution impossible?


You learn all about DNA, but you did not make it to begin with. You then prove that you can alter it or recreate it even. But then arrogantly say naaah not a creature it was just chance but what WE are doing is engineering DUUUH we are intelligent evolved monkies!



Darwinism and evolution theory is the faith of many atheists I am sure, but it is to me not science at all but mere conjecture and wishful thinking in arrogance of denying God but sticking to it as it is your ONLY faith you can depend on as an atheist.

You are misusing the word "faith." Faith is belief in the absence of (or even contrary to) evidence.


Observing a few pieces of bones and organizing them in a certain manner then claiming they must have 'evolved' over millions of years into each other (eg: species) is not science to me at all.


Windows was created by microsoft. Some alien coming to our planet and seeing windows 3.1, windows 95, windows 2000, Xp, 7, etc... will not say HMMM it must have evolved over millions of years. Or even a porsche 911 or a mitsubishi evolution (lol), these people if they saw our remnants but no humans wouldn't go AAAH HAA evolution !

That's also not an accurate analogy.


Science is able to observe the raw ingredients around us and how they react, what they are, great. It is not proving any such process of 'evolution' of creatures basically accidentally popping out of no where. Sea creatures coming to land, land creatures flying. Etc...

Instead let's assume that a magical sky creature (which popped out of nowhere) put things together... yeah, that's a good idea. Let's roll with that! Roll Eyes



More evidence that you don't know anything at all about evolution, despite your numerous claims to be a lover of science and a prodigious bookworm.


Hence my xmen/spiderman commentary. That's how unsophisticated to me it is. Magic and wishful thinking

It may be "unsophisticated" to you, but that's only because you haven't studied the subject and just rely on a few talking points you keep spouting back again and again.


Right so you understand the raw materials. So they all magically came together to form a human being or x number of other creatures or their components?

No. A magical sky creature put them all together using his magical powers! Roll Eyes Why don't you actually study evolution and natural selection to understand the concepts before making an ass of yourself on the Internet?


Look look! This forum magically compiled its' own code and came on the internet!

Apples and oranges.


Yes, because if it weren't for the perfect balance of things in the body (eg: hormones, nutrition, etc...) and healthy perfectly functional organs (both unique in each gender). You and I my friend would not exist, and fertility clinics of today would be out of business.

And this proves what exactly? That if things aren't as they they wouldn't be as they are?


Did darwin suddenly go AH evolution, I don't need to procreate anymore. I'm just going to sit around or walk in the sun and I will EVOLVE

More evidence still that you don't know anything at all about evolution, despite your numerous claims to be a lover of science and a prodigious bookworm.
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2012, 04:13:45 PM »


lol i love it. An atheist telling me I don't know anything because I am not putting my faith in his belief Smiley How stereotypical. Like a child throwing a tantrum at his mom for taking away his toys.

Clearly I don't understand it because I don't believe it  Roll Eyes





Oooh pretty pictures!

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This line of reasoning just flat out fails... so since we can now do genetic engineering, this somehow makes evolution impossible?

Oh so you are talking about possibilities and the impossible? Wow, your faith in evolution is that weak? You certainly are not affirming my faith in evolution just providing me faith away from it Smiley

Just ironic, that the one that's created, is basically saying hey we can create but no we weren't created Smiley

“Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
Or did they create the heavens and the earth? Nay, but they have no firm Belief.
Or are with them the treasures of your Lord? Or are they the tyrants with the authority to do as they like?”[al-Toor 52:35-37]


Quote
You are misusing the word "faith." Faith is belief in the absence of (or even contrary to) evidence.
No I believe I am using it quite correctly. Your darwinian atheist faith has not proved to me anything nor shown me any evidence besides children's cartoons, broken bones and broken promises of millions of years of evidence  Roll Eyes

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Instead let's assume that a magical sky creature (which popped out of nowhere) put things together... yeah, that's a good idea. Let's roll with that!

Except that's not how it happened. We will not roll with that.


You talk about raw materials of the DNA in a LAB, an EXPERIMENT that HUMANS conduct with proteins. GREAT! So that argument itself works against you. You are intervening and using your INTELLECT behind the process. The only thing you are not in command of is the raw materials. Yes a provision to us from God. Or no, the universe just magically 'came to be' by an accident and everything in it.

Since we chose to talk about sexual reproductive organs.

You and I would seize to exist if anything goes wrong with them. They have to be WHOLE and COMPLETE.

Now lets put two and two together. You conduct some lame experiment in a lab with proteins... we have genetic engineering. We have humans who are whole. First and foremost two genders COMPLETELY seperate from one another with totally unique sexual organs.

Explain me this? If even once in your imaginary tale of evolution one organ failed we'd be doomed. Now explain to me how this organ came to be in both genders, how the genders came to be...? And now explain me this... The CONSTRUCT of the human being including the organs had to be conceived prior. Which would require genetic engineering and a process of reproduction. BOTH have to be complete, you cannot have a human with no reproductive system then magically develop a reproductive system. And the concept of a reproductive system itself in both seperate genders is nothing without the male or female human. Therefore BOTH must be whole. Very unique and intricate, beautiful at that.

Cut off any component from that process and you have nothing.
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2012, 04:21:47 PM »

If you agree with everything I said you would be aware what the first commandment instructs, just like the qur'an that nothing compares to God in the creation or as in the bible it's described, neither the earth, heaven or water. Jesus is comparable to humans. Jesus is a human.

God is not the creation nor in his creation. The later of which is called pantheism. Believing that God physically 'dwells' in His creation. Certain idolators would say such things of idols.  And hindus would describe God in the creation a belief in pantheism not monotheism.

This is not the teachings of Jesus yet again.. but the teachings of later Christians... you are not doing service to this thread by bringing exclusively christian beliefs that someone will simply argue with as I was arguing with you in the other thread about the verses that indicate Jesus is not God and get ridicule for citing that God is a man.

Furthermore saying God is male, is your own words. God never uttered such thing. That would mean God has a male reproductive organ... God CREATED genders... God has no gender. You are being deluded yet again by Pauline/church teachings, not Jesus' own teachings or whats said in the scriptures... again saying God is a man when Jesus said no such thing and kept calling towards the same God of Moses, God of Abraham, etc... The one and only. Hear oh Israel your Lord God is one.

Science merely is able to disprove false deities, but it does not disprove God.

If  you knew the Holy Spirit in your life you'd understand.  I'm not speaking of the angel Gabriel either.
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