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Author Topic: Mr. Natural Olympia - can someone explain  (Read 16238 times)
MCWAY
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« Reply #225 on: October 14, 2012, 10:05:45 PM »

there needs to be LIFETIME NATURAL BB comps

and let getbiggers decide who is lifetime natural and who is not

there are no tests that can detect whether someone is lifetime natural

the only way is by the look

NATURAL BB IS A FILT LIE

There are (or at least, there used to be). If the ANBC still exists, they had a drug-free-for-life policy.

Most organizations require a drug-free status of at least three years. INBA has five years; the WNBF has seven.

BTW, how exactly are natural bodybuilders supposed to look?
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« Reply #226 on: October 14, 2012, 10:34:09 PM »

There are kids in HIGH SCHOOL, who are leaner than guys in the 40s and 50s. These are men that did next to no cardio and didn't diet to get ripped at all.

Listen to what you just said. The old timers, many of them you assume were natural did high volume. Yet, high volume works against naturals of today? Make up your mind here. Volume is something you build up over time. And, if your diet and rest are sufficient, you can recover and grow from high-volume workouts, drugs or no drugs.

Hardly. Most of these guys simply cut out the starches a few weeks out, which is really all the ketogenic diet is.

Cardio does no such thing. The only thing that makes naturals (or not-so-naturals) smaller is EATING TOO LITTLE FOOD. Old-school bodybuilders hardly diet for 4 months at a time. And they certainly didn't have the nutritional supplements that are so common today to go along with their diets.

The training scheme compares weightlifters with bodybuilders. In fact, one of the paragraphs even states, Weight-lifters seldom start a work-out with as
many as ten repetitions; eight is usually the maximum, and
a proportion of lifters seldom exceed six repetitions. Generally,
weight-lifters tend to exercise more often than bodybuilders.
Five days a week is not uncommon, and more
rarely six or even seven. The body-builders believe that
alternate days of rest are essential for the anabolism of new
muscle tissue, whereas a weight-lifter can go on increasing
in strength without concomitant increase in bulk.


If the weightlifters are exercising five times a week, then how often are the bodybuilders training? Sounds to me like the typical THREE-TIMES-PER-WEEK training from back in the day.


Wrong again! I see supplements for what their are: SUPPLEMENTS to a sound diet. The only nimrod on here is folks like you, who apparently can't lift the toilet seat to go the bathroom, without a stack of Deca or Winstrol.



It is just incredible how infinitely stupid and blind people can be...or youre just one more of the pathological liars that will unconsciously defend his life style against anything.

Proof, as a mechanism of resolving conflicts is not about the truth, but about who can create conviction on the jury, its not about who is right or wrong, but about who can defend himself better.

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« Reply #227 on: October 14, 2012, 10:57:25 PM »

There are kids in HIGH SCHOOL, who are leaner than guys in the 40s and 50s. These are men that did next to no cardio and didn't diet to get ripped at all.

Yes, and they are:

a) Smaller.

b) On real drugs.

C) On Prohormones, etc......

Show me a natural teenager the size and leanness of any of the men listed before in this thread.

Listen to what you just said. The old timers, many of them you assume were natural did high volume. Yet, high volume works against naturals of today? Make up your mind here.

No, I make perfect sense. In the previous post you made it seem like they were all doing the same 5 x 5, 3x weekly lifting. Yet when you read the magazines you see that there was more variety than that. The only thing that your are partially right on, is that they favored a three day a week schedule, but the rep ranges, sets, exercises, intensity, etc...... all changed with different lifters.

I've add more to this in a separate post.  

Volume is something you build up over time. And, if your diet and rest are sufficient, you can recover and grow from high-volume workouts, drugs or no drugs.

Show me legitimate non-drugged strength athlete that can get away with using a ultra-high volume approach with any type of meaningful load for an extended period of time. You can't.

Hardly. Most of these guys simply cut out the starches a few weeks out, which is really all the ketogenic diet is.

Ok, even though I don't agree with this, I'll let you have it, just to make this point again -

Explain to me how these guys are dieting harder, doing cardio, and still managing to come in bigger and leaner than much younger men from just 50 - 60 years ago who didn't have to do such things?

Cardio does no such thing. The only thing that makes naturals (or not-so-naturals) smaller is EATING TOO LITTLE FOOD.

So fucking retarded it doesn't deserve a thoughtful answer.  Show me real world examples of this theory working.

Old-school bodybuilders hardly diet for 4 months at a time. And they certainly didn't have the nutritional supplements that are so common today to go along with their diets.

Ok, so again, explain to me how these guys are dieting harder, doing cardio, and still managing to come in bigger and leaner than much younger men from just 50 - 60 years ago who didn't have to do such things?

Oh, it must be the Creatines!

The training scheme compares weightlifters with bodybuilders. In fact, one of the paragraphs even states, Weight-lifters seldom start a work-out with as
many as ten repetitions; eight is usually the maximum, and
a proportion of lifters seldom exceed six repetitions. Generally,
weight-lifters tend to exercise more often than bodybuilders.
Five days a week is not uncommon, and more
rarely six or even seven. The body-builders believe that
alternate days of rest are essential for the anabolism of new
muscle tissue, whereas a weight-lifter can go on increasing
in strength without concomitant increase in bulk.


If the weightlifters are exercising five times a week, then how often are the bodybuilders training? Sounds to me like the typical THREE-TIMES-PER-WEEK training from back in the day.


Read the whole thing, you'll see that it shows different exercise selections, rep and load ranges, etc..... It even has ideas much like the fabled Weider Principles mentioned. It wasn't as simple as 5 x 5, three days a week as you made it seem in the other post. I'll mention this in a separate post.


Wrong again! I see supplements for what their are: SUPPLEMENTS to a sound diet. The only nimrod on here is folks like you, who apparently can't lift the toilet seat to go the bathroom, without a stack of Deca or Winstrol.

Keep believing that slugger while you wait for the GNC sales girl to put those near expired Cell Techs on the sale table.


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« Reply #228 on: October 14, 2012, 10:58:54 PM »



BTW, how exactly are natural bodybuilders supposed to look?
This is exactly my point. Look at prison yard physiques of guys locked up for 10-20 years. There's some absolute BEASTS.  Look at some high school track athletes. Incredible genetics are all around us. Before I even knew about all the lying scumbags in bodybuilding, when I would see the natural pros, I believed their physiques were attainable just by comparing them to some of the examples I just mentioned. A lot of people in this thread dishing out statements and accusations like they are absolute truth when they really don't have proof...just a "suspicion". All I'm advocating is that there's a chance the accusations are false. Open your eyes, there's amazing physiques that can be built without drugs (not that there's anything wrong with that)

I wonder how many fellas have actually seen how big these pros are in real life compared to the naturals??? It's night and day. I'm not impressed enough with many of these self-proclaimed naturals to disbelieve them. They simply aren't that impressive to me compared to the freaks out there.
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« Reply #229 on: October 14, 2012, 11:10:14 PM »

A selection of compared lifter's writings on training from a few posts back. Here you'll see that there was actually some decent variation in lifting styles -

Bodybuilder:

Clarence Ross -

Training through the late 40's -

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2010/01/routines-i-have-used-clarence-ross.html .

John Farbotnik -

http://muscleandbrawn.com/forums/classic-lifters/7050-john-farbotnik-mr-america-1950-a.html .


Reg Park -

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2009/05/how-i-trained-reg-park.html .   

http://regpark.net/bb/index.php?PHPSESSID=a5bb936743da31dc565e2d8c28af475b&topic=1112.0 .

John Grimek -

Here he discusses all types of work out approaches -

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2008/02/is-heavy-training-best-john-grimek.html .

Jack Delinger -   

http://ditillo2.blogspot.com/2009/10/bulk-training-jack-delinger.html .

Steve Reeves -

He can't make up his mind, book says one thing, older mags say another -

http://www.wannabebig.com/forums/showthread.php?40966-steve-reeves-routine .


*Granted there are a few caveats here. A) That all listed were natural. If they weren't than that hurts the "x is natural" cause more. B) That they weren't extensively ghost written.
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« Reply #230 on: October 14, 2012, 11:20:36 PM »

This blog explains the training program I followed this year to prepare for the Natural Mr. Universe -

http://www.ironmanmagazine.com/blogs/johnhansen/off-season-power-training/
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« Reply #231 on: October 15, 2012, 06:21:02 AM »

This is exactly my point. Look at prison yard physiques of guys locked up for 10-20 years. There's some absolute BEASTS.  Look at some high school track athletes. Incredible genetics are all around us. Before I even knew about all the lying scumbags in bodybuilding, when I would see the natural pros, I believed their physiques were attainable just by comparing them to some of the examples I just mentioned. A lot of people in this thread dishing out statements and accusations like they are absolute truth when they really don't have proof...just a "suspicion". All I'm advocating is that there's a chance the accusations are false. Open your eyes, there's amazing physiques that can be built without drugs (not that there's anything wrong with that)

I wonder how many fellas have actually seen how big these pros are in real life compared to the naturals??? It's night and day. I'm not impressed enough with many of these self-proclaimed naturals to disbelieve them. They simply aren't that impressive to me compared to the freaks out there.

Well, that's not just limited to guys in prison obviously. But, you've stated what I've been saying from the start.
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« Reply #232 on: October 15, 2012, 10:17:00 AM »

here's lies and i state 'lies',,in history ifbb just from 80's till now at least there has been only a handful and 'take it for there word'natural bbers's competing jean paul guillamme.mike ashley,f hilebrand when he came out , d farnsworth,bennfatto and whole tested mro 90 crew lol,,,that competed and placed no less in some big show's other than no one could stand on stage with any ifbb pro 212,open or such.
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« Reply #233 on: October 15, 2012, 02:46:47 PM »

here's lies and i state 'lies',,in history ifbb just from 80's till now at least there has been only a handful and 'take it for there word'natural bbers's competing jean paul guillamme.mike ashley,f hilebrand when he came out , d farnsworth,bennfatto and whole tested mro 90 crew lol,,,that competed and placed no less in some big show's other than no one could stand on stage with any ifbb pro 212,open or such.

Mike Ashley! You lost all credibility there
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« Reply #234 on: October 15, 2012, 04:26:59 PM »

Mike Ashley! You lost all credibility there
i should have put a wink smile i was being facetious,,,,of course he and shawn ray finished 1st and 2nd in arnold classic ,,ray failed test ashley won ,,,he was as big as ray and hard ,,,impossible considering  ray was on enough crank to bulk up an ethiopian village...
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« Reply #235 on: October 15, 2012, 07:51:24 PM »

This is exactly my point. Look at prison yard physiques of guys locked up for 10-20 years. There's some absolute BEASTS.  Look at some high school track athletes. Incredible genetics are all around us. Before I even knew about all the lying scumbags in bodybuilding, when I would see the natural pros, I believed their physiques were attainable just by comparing them to some of the examples I just mentioned. A lot of people in this thread dishing out statements and accusations like they are absolute truth when they really don't have proof...just a "suspicion". All I'm advocating is that there's a chance the accusations are false. Open your eyes, there's amazing physiques that can be built without drugs (not that there's anything wrong with that)

I wonder how many fellas have actually seen how big these pros are in real life compared to the naturals??? It's night and day. I'm not impressed enough with many of these self-proclaimed naturals to disbelieve them. They simply aren't that impressive to me compared to the freaks out there.

steroids make it into jail too, just like other drugs
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« Reply #236 on: October 15, 2012, 07:53:26 PM »

steroids make it into jail too, just like other drugs
I've heard a few Dbol tabs here and there, but I've heard that's extremely rare and that it's mostly narcotics. Do you have other information brother?
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« Reply #237 on: October 16, 2012, 12:54:28 AM »

I've heard a few Dbol tabs here and there, but I've heard that's extremely rare and that it's mostly narcotics. Do you have other information brother?

Any drugs in jail, as long as you have  money or a way to pay. Rec, PED.
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« Reply #238 on: October 16, 2012, 12:59:50 AM »

here's lies and i state 'lies',,in history ifbb just from 80's till now at least there has been only a handful and 'take it for there word'natural bbers's competing jean paul guillamme.mike ashley,f hilebrand when he came out , d farnsworth,bennfatto and whole tested mro 90 crew lol,,,that competed and placed no less in some big show's other than no one could stand on stage with any ifbb pro 212,open or such.

Luiz freitas, francois gay, darrem charles, ron alcatraz coleman, there were many others I can't recall

Also in late 70s, early 80s coe and tinnerino, steve davis all had their nattie phases

Fucking franco said he never used steroids until after he won the Mr O...
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« Reply #239 on: October 16, 2012, 01:06:11 AM »

Difference is that Franco looks like a drug user. Darrem kind of did and most likely was. John Hansen built a big base of muscle very early on in his life. Either he was on steroids way back in the 70s/80s or he just has a great ability to build muscle (mesomorph), combined with being a 100% dedicated bodybuilder. It's possible.
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« Reply #240 on: October 16, 2012, 02:00:45 AM »

This is exactly my point. Look at prison yard physiques of guys locked up for 10-20 years. There's some absolute BEASTS.  Look at some high school track athletes. Incredible genetics are all around us. Before I even knew about all the lying scumbags in bodybuilding, when I would see the natural pros, I believed their physiques were attainable just by comparing them to some of the examples I just mentioned. A lot of people in this thread dishing out statements and accusations like they are absolute truth when they really don't have proof...just a "suspicion". All I'm advocating is that there's a chance the accusations are false. Open your eyes, there's amazing physiques that can be built without drugs (not that there's anything wrong with that)

I wonder how many fellas have actually seen how big these pros are in real life compared to the naturals??? It's night and day. I'm not impressed enough with many of these self-proclaimed naturals to disbelieve them. They simply aren't that impressive to me compared to the freaks out there.

Lol @ prison yard physiques. You do know that you can get uranium in jail in you really need it come on man. I had a buddy who came out of jail after a 2 stretch, and he told me he'd been working out on creatine and 2000 kcals a day but he had obviously been on a shitload of dbol because he's never lifted in his life before he was inside, but magically after creatine, and 7 workouts a week for 6 months he's benching 3 plates a side for 6 reps haha I literally laughed in his face and called him moonman for about a month his face was so round.

Seriously, most of the 'inspirational physiques' we see that give naturals 'hope' that they can get bigger without gear are liars.
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« Reply #241 on: October 16, 2012, 02:07:29 AM »

Any drugs in jail, as long as you have  money or a way to pay. Rec, PED.

Also with prison lifters, putting aside steroid use in jail, is that many times it's a case of "he looks great standing alone".

Many guys in prison look loads better than your average gym rat, but if you put them next to mid-level or better, stage ready bodybuilders, most would look small, bloated, etc.....
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« Reply #242 on: October 16, 2012, 02:17:37 AM »

 Roll Eyes  Its total bullshit . Thats the explanation .
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« Reply #243 on: October 16, 2012, 04:34:07 AM »

he just has a great ability to build muscle (mesomorph), combined with being a 100% dedicated bodybuilder. It's possible.

No

No its not

Even the most genetically gifted guys that were sensations as teens, nevermind late 40s, would NOT be able to hold that much muscle. Guys like ray, priest, robinson, gaspari, di mora.

No
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« Reply #244 on: October 16, 2012, 04:47:10 AM »

Roll Eyes  Its total bullshit . Thats the explanation .

Yet we're still debating it for 10 pages like its plausible

Decades of brainwashing magazine propaganda is to blame. And sites like IA where its common knowledge everyone back in the day had morals and they just worked harder.

Because lying, stealing, cheating, drug using, prostituting, drug-peddling bbers are a new phenomenon.

The mentzers, viator, birdsong for example, were all meth addicts, ken sprague was a gay porn star, and yet these people and their contemporaries say something, so it must be true.
Then when bbing became dirty and immoral, the natural movement became the new moral beacon. But they're not even natural, they're a bunch of guys that took as much or more as anyone else, but due to shit genes can't make it, so took easy route by decreasing dosage and using less androgenic hormones, and becoming natural.
But they're not actually cheating, because all the other naturals are also using, and only 5% of the stupid or uninformed compete clean, they're usually to be found in last place.

And the tests. Come on...
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« Reply #245 on: October 16, 2012, 08:01:00 AM »

Yet we're still debating it for 10 pages like its plausible

Decades of brainwashing magazine propaganda is to blame. And sites like IA where its common knowledge everyone back in the day had morals and they just worked harder.

Because lying, stealing, cheating, drug using, prostituting, drug-peddling bbers are a new phenomenon.

The mentzers, viator, birdsong for example, were all meth addicts, ken sprague was a gay porn star, and yet these people and their contemporaries say something, so it must be true.
Then when bbing became dirty and immoral, the natural movement became the new moral beacon. But they're not even natural, they're a bunch of guys that took as much or more as anyone else, but due to shit genes can't make it, so took easy route by decreasing dosage and using less androgenic hormones, and becoming natural.
But they're not actually cheating, because all the other naturals are also using, and only 5% of the stupid or uninformed compete clean, they're usually to be found in last place.

And the tests. Come on...


I agree that there are no perfect tests out there but you could say the same thing about the Olympics. The idea behind natural contests is that the majority of the competitors will be clean. I don't think it's 95% who are cheating. It's probably the opposite, about 10% might be cheating and everyone else is clean. The organization I compete in fails competitors every year for cheating. At the Natural Universe show I just competed in, someone failed the test. All you can do is do your best naturally and hope that everyone else does the same. If they cheat, you hope they get caught. If the organization isn't doing all it can to catch the cheaters, then you move onto another organization. There are a lot of bodybuilders out there who want to push themselves naturally and see how good they can develop their physiques without taking drugs. It's definitely not 95% of the competitors are cheating. That's way off.
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« Reply #246 on: October 16, 2012, 08:07:30 AM »

I agree that there are no perfect tests out there but you could say the same thing about the Olympics. The idea behind natural contests is that the majority of the competitors will be clean. I don't think it's 95% who are cheating. It's probably the opposite, about 10% might be cheating and everyone else is clean. The organization I compete in fails competitors every year for cheating. At the Natural Universe show I just competed in, someone failed the test. All you can do is do your best naturally and hope that everyone else does the same. If they cheat, you hope they get caught. If the organization isn't doing all it can to catch the cheaters, then you move onto another organization. There are a lot of bodybuilders out there who want to push themselves naturally and see how good they can develop their physiques without taking drugs. It's definitely not 95% of the competitors are cheating. That's way off.


What's the point in competing in an event that only about ten people in the world compete in?

Seems like a waste of time, it's an even more pointless endeavour than pro bodybuilding, at least more than a hand full of people actually compete in it.

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« Reply #247 on: October 16, 2012, 08:22:19 AM »


What's the point in competing in an event that only about ten people in the world compete in?

Seems like a waste of time, it's an even more pointless endeavour than pro bodybuilding, at least more than a hand full of people actually compete in it.



The whole idea of competition is to push yourself to look better and be the best you can. You can train hard and diet just for
yourself but you'll never push yourself as hard unless you have a contest to be ready for on a certain date. Most bodybuilders
aren't doing this for the money! Back in the day, before there was professional bodybuilding, bodybuilders just competed for
themselves. We, as competitors, can't control how many people are in a show or what they will look like. You can only control
what condition you come into, everything else is out of our hands.
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« Reply #248 on: October 16, 2012, 04:46:49 PM »

lmfao, i know for an absolute certain fact that francois gay wasnt a natural.

No! He had to be, he was on natural bbing magazine covers!

Plus, he had an honest face, so I believe him. (No homo)


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« Reply #249 on: October 16, 2012, 06:07:43 PM »

Difference is that Franco looks like a drug user. Darrem kind of did and most likely was. John Hansen built a big base of muscle very early on in his life. Either he was on steroids way back in the 70s/80s or he just has a great ability to build muscle (mesomorph), combined with being a 100% dedicated bodybuilder. It's possible.

The fact that you resort to sometotypes should be reason enough to dismiss this dumbass post.
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