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Author Topic: Read the book of Matthew  (Read 7544 times)
Agnostic007
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2012, 06:34:20 PM »

You do realize that Jesus is to Christians much different than Muhammad is to Muslims right?

Yes, but like the new testament, I believe the Qu'ran is about as "from God" as The Jerry Springer Show
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« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2012, 01:33:58 PM »

Normally I would take a phrase like that as a compliment, but in this case I think it's more of an insult that someone who doesn't even know something taught in grade 2 is trying relate to me  Smiley


a very relevant point  Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 08:59:50 AM »

last night.  Will read more books later and post my thoughts/questions.  For now, just regarding Matthew here are my observations:

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal.

At first blush this notion seems like a non sequitur so it would be helpful (to me) if you could explain more how one validates or invalidates the other.   Sure, in a very generic sense, any male could be called a “son of God”, but reliance upon a single meaning for a word or phrase that can have multiple meanings is flawed.  Most importantly, Christ repeatedly demonstrated and affirmed his divinity as has been explained repeatedly.  

2)  7:1 "do not judge lest you will be judged" tells me that Christians should not be able to say with certainty that everyone except for them will be condemned to hell.

A divine command to spread the gospel and Christ’s message of salvation and all that it entails is not a generic position of inappropriate judgment on behalf of the messenger(s).  

3)  10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master."  (italics mine).  Quite the contrast with Islamic teachings of equality.

Nothing to add.

4)  In lots of verses it teaches that the righteous go to heaven while the evil go to hell (I didnt note each one but noted 25:31-46).  This constrasts with the general Christian belief that it is faith and not actions that determine where you will spend the afterlife, i.e. according to these verses a good person should not go to hell regardless of what he believes.  Another example in 19:18 Jesus indicates to follow commandments in order to have eternal life (i.e. actions not faith)

Faith in Christ is the key to salvation, but a Christian lives out their faith and attempts to represent Jesus Christ in all that they do.  This comes back to why Jesus came as a man and left his throne.  He came as the perfect sacrifice for our sin and salvation and as an example of how we should live.  Simply claiming faith in Christ, but not living out that faith fully by following Christ’s example is a meaningless claim of faith….that’s why the ranks of Christianity are littered with nominal Christians.  Jesus knows the contents of our hearts and simply making an empty claim of faith in this life will be dealt with.

5)  13:57 Jesus says, "A prophet is not without honour except in his home town, and in his own household."  When you read the few verses surrounding 13:57 it's obvious that Jesus is calling himself a prophet (i.e. not God).

Jesus was the human son of Mary, carpenter, the Son of God, prophetic Son of Man, brother, friend, rabbi/teacher, prophet, Messiah and Lord……he was many things.  

6)  While Jesus calls himself a prophet in #5, someone else calls Jesus a prophet as well in 21:11 "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee" when he enters Jerusalem.

Others he encountered referred to him as prophet, rabbi, Lord, Messiah, Son of God……all are correct.

7)  Jesus prays in 14:23 and 26:36-46.  I don't believe God would pray to himself or anyone.

Christ didn’t return to his fully glory and power until after his resurrection.  Prior to that (in his human state) he was weakened and humbled (as a man) and drew strength from his divine essence through prayer and also used his time of prayer as an example for us to emulate.  He lived as the perfect example of how we should live out our faith.

8.  Jesus calls himself "son of man" tons of times.

Son of Man was his preferred title and a reference to the prophetic “Son of Man” designation in Daniel 7 that indicates the coming of the divine king.

9)  In 24:36 Jesus says "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the son, but the father alone."  If Jesus was God he would be all-knowing by definition.

I didn't note all of my examples and observations as I read, but the above summarize the highlights.

As I’ve noted previously (and within other threads), Christ didn’t return to his fully glory and power until after his resurrection.  In his pre-resurrected, human state he purposefully humbled and limited himself for the purpose of being the perfect sacrifice for our sins, the narrow gate to salvation and as an example for us to follow.   When he returned to his divine state and power after his resurrection he once again knew the hour of his return.

Hope this is helpful.
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2012, 05:33:56 AM »

1)  Tons of incidents where Jesus uses the phrase "your father" to his followers, showing that lots of humans can have the "son of God" title other than Jesus, making Jesus' not unique and literal. in other parts Jesus is referred to as God's ONLY BEGOTTEN SON which would be the difference

Sorry for the late reply, was at work without my marked Bible at home when you posted this, and from then I was out of town for much of the time also forgot to look up the verse I had previously marked.

Anyway 1 John 2:29 reads "If you consider that he is righteous, you also know that everyone who acts in righteousness is begotten by him."  

Therefore the argument that Jesus is unique in being referred to as "only begotten son" simply isn't true, as the above verse clarifies that all who are righteous are "begotten children."
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2012, 05:53:02 AM »

At first blush this notion seems like a non sequitur so it would be helpful (to me) if you could explain more how one validates or invalidates the other.   Sure, in a very generic sense, any male could be called a “son of God”, but reliance upon a single meaning for a word or phrase that can have multiple meanings is flawed.  Most importantly, Christ repeatedly demonstrated and affirmed his divinity as has been explained repeatedly. 

Yet you haven't been able to provide a single example from scripture to show this, other than a few ambigious verses which you interpret how you want and simply conclude that our interpretation is flawed.  Something so fundamental as Christ's divinity would surely have been stated in black-and-white in scripture if it were true.
  

Nothing to add.

Nothing to add to 10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master?"  So you're not objecting that your religion promotes slavery or inequality?


Jesus was the human son of Mary, carpenter, the Son of God, prophetic Son of Man, brother, friend, rabbi/teacher, prophet, Messiah and Lord……he was many things.  

Others he encountered referred to him as prophet, rabbi, Lord, Messiah, Son of God……all are correct.

Some of those titles by definition contradict others and therefore is not possible to be all things at once.  For example, a prophet by definition can not be the same as God.  Just look up the definition of prophet if you're unsure


As I’ve noted previously (and within other threads), Christ didn’t return to his fully glory and power until after his resurrection.  In his pre-resurrected, human state he purposefully humbled and limited himself for the purpose of being the perfect sacrifice for our sins, the narrow gate to salvation and as an example for us to follow.   When he returned to his divine state and power after his resurrection he once again knew the hour of his return.

Hope this is helpful.

Noting something in previous threads does not make it true, plausible or even scriptural.

Yes it was helpful in that it reinforced to me that the general Christian view on Jesus, the Trinity and salvation can not be defended against logic and the Bible itself.  It also helps make me feel confident that I can reiterate these arguments to other Christaians without facing a valid rebuttal (because if there was one I'm sure you would have used it by now). So I do thank you for that reassurance.
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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2012, 10:27:01 AM »

Yet you haven't been able to provide a single example from scripture to show this, other than a few ambigious verses which you interpret how you want and simply conclude that our interpretation is flawed.  Something so fundamental as Christ's divinity would surely have been stated in black-and-white in scripture if it were true.
  
Nothing to add to 10:24 "A disciple is not above his teacher, nor is a slave above his master?"  So you're not objecting that your religion promotes slavery or inequality?

Some of those titles by definition contradict others and therefore is not possible to be all things at once.  For example, a prophet by definition can not be the same as God.  Just look up the definition of prophet if you're unsure

Noting something in previous threads does not make it true, plausible or even scriptural.

Yes it was helpful in that it reinforced to me that the general Christian view on Jesus, the Trinity and salvation can not be defended against logic and the Bible itself.  It also helps make me feel confident that I can reiterate these arguments to other Christaians without facing a valid rebuttal (because if there was one I'm sure you would have used it by now). So I do thank you for that reassurance.

Feel free to post the ambiguous verses I've cited and we can discuss them more and hopefully get some some more context and clarity for you.

No, nothing to add here.  The fundamental tenets of Islam and Christianity are diametrically opposed so I didn't engage in an indepth comparision of Islam and Christianity based on that single statement in this thread, but we can discuss the differences in the tenets of both faiths if you'd like to and I'll do my best.

The folks Christ encountered often referred to him as a prophet and he did make prophetic statements.  Other said he was demonic. Still, make no mistake that Christ is our risen God and his very unique, special purpose as a man on Earth had him wearing multiple hats (for lack of better words)....it's possible only because he is God...that simple really.

You are correct that noting a previous thread doesn't make something true, plausible or scriptural, but it does note that fact that the point has been discussed repeatedly and that I'm restating that here.

It's absolutely your choice to take that position.  I completely understand that as a Muslim, as a representative of Islam, this is what you must do.  You must tear down Christianity because if Jesus Christ is God then Islam is rendered utterly meaningless...the Islamic attack on Christianity is essential.  Plus the disturbing death penalty for apostasy is incredibly difficult to negotiate.  I'm highly sympathetic towards the Muslim community, but if  you would like to speak more about salvation through Christ I'm happy to do so....the Holy Spirit is a powerful presence to have in your life.

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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2012, 10:40:56 AM »

Feel free to post the ambiguous verses I've cited and we can discuss them more and hopefully get some some more context and clarity for you.

If your quotes were not ambigious you would have pasted them here to prove me wrong.  There is no quote from Jesus claiming to be God in the Bible and this is a known fact which you know as well.  On the contrary Jesus went to lengths to teach that he is NOT God, but differentiating and belittling himself below God while in the Bible never speaking of the Trinity or claming that God is triune and he's included in the godhead.  I don't think its a worthwhile way to spend my time by searching your old posts and repasting your ambigious evidences and once again re-refuting them.


The folks Christ encountered often referred to him as a prophet and he did make prophetic statements.  Other said he was demonic.

Unfortunately for you I'm not only referring to what "folks" called Christ, but what Jesus himself said of himself, I'll repaste:

Matthew 13:57 "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household."  Here Jesus is calling himself a prophet upon entering Bethlehem while noting that he was not given his due honor.

You expect that Jesus would tell us that he is a prophet, yet condemn us to hell for not believing to the contrary that he was God?

It's absolutely your choice to take that position.  I completely understand that as a Muslim, as a representative of Islam, this is what you must do.  You must tear down Christianity because if Jesus Christ is God then Islam is rendered utterly meaningless...the Islamic attack on Christianity is essential.  Plus the disturbing death penalty for apostasy is incredibly difficult to negotiate.  I'm highly sympathetic towards the Muslim community, but if  you would like to speak more about salvation through Christ I'm happy to do so....the Holy Spirit is a powerful presence to have in your life.



I'm not required to tear down Christianity, I do it it with my own desire to bring people to the truth and to have them rationalize and question what really makes sense, rather than blindly following what their parents or church taught them since childhood.  

Re: the death penalty for apostasy I believe the majority opinion is that it is not a valid law.  From Wikipedia:

"In modern times, some Islamic scholars, including Wael Hallaq, state that apostasy laws are not derived from the Qur'an.[13] Several modern scholars oppose any penalty for apostasy, including Gamal Al-Banna,[6][14] Taha Jabir Alalwani,[15] Ahmad Kutty of the Islamic Institute of Toronto[7] and Shabir Ally.[16] Quran Alone Muslims do not support the apostasy penalty, citing verses from Qur'an which advocate free will.[17]

Others believe that the death penalty can only be applied when apostasy is coupled with attempts to "harm" the Muslim community, rejecting the death penalty in other cases. These include,[1][18][19] Ahmad Shafaat,[20] Jamal Badawi,[10] Yusuf Estes,[21] Javed Ahmad Ghamidi,[22] and Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji."


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« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2012, 11:50:26 AM »

If your quotes were not ambigious you would have pasted them here to prove me wrong.  There is no quote from Jesus claiming to be God in the Bible and this is a known fact which you know as well.  On the contrary Jesus went to lengths to teach that he is NOT God, but differentiating and belittling himself below God while in the Bible never speaking of the Trinity or claming that God is triune and he's included in the godhead.  I don't think its a worthwhile way to spend my time by searching your old posts and repasting your ambigious evidences and once again re-refuting them.

Unfortunately for you I'm not only referring to what "folks" called Christ, but what Jesus himself said of himself, I'll repaste:

Matthew 13:57 "A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household."  Here Jesus is calling himself a prophet upon entering Bethlehem while noting that he was not given his due honor.

You expect that Jesus would tell us that he is a prophet, yet condemn us to hell for not believing to the contrary that he was God?

I'm not required to tear down Christianity, I do it it with my own desire to bring people to the truth and to have them rationalize and question what really makes sense, rather than blindly following what their parents or church taught them since childhood.  

Re: the death penalty for apostasy I believe the majority opinion is that it is not a valid law.  From Wikipedia:

"In modern times, some Islamic scholars, including Wael Hallaq, state that apostasy laws are not derived from the Qur'an.[13] Several modern scholars oppose any penalty for apostasy, including Gamal Al-Banna,[6][14] Taha Jabir Alalwani,[15] Ahmad Kutty of the Islamic Institute of Toronto[7] and Shabir Ally.[16] Quran Alone Muslims do not support the apostasy penalty, citing verses from Qur'an which advocate free will.[17]

Others believe that the death penalty can only be applied when apostasy is coupled with attempts to "harm" the Muslim community, rejecting the death penalty in other cases. These include,[1][18][19] Ahmad Shafaat,[20] Jamal Badawi,[10] Yusuf Estes,[21] Javed Ahmad Ghamidi,[22] and Maliki jurist Abu al-Walid al-Baji."




As I said in my last, please post the verses (I've posted previously) that you've found ambiguous and we can discuss them more and hopefully gain more context and clarity.  I just don't know which verses you are referring to.....there's been lots of posts, lots of threads and lots of verses.  I didn't repost anything here because I've already posted and reposted a number of items.....my post history is available to all.  

You keep trying to hit me with "AH HAH" moments by posting verses about Christ calling himself a prophet, but Christ referred to himself as a prophet in other verses to.  It's all there in the NT LOL....there's nothing hidden or denied.  He also referred to himself as king and as God.  He was many things while on Earth, but above all he is divine.  Accepting some verses and denying others because it doesn't fit an agenda just isn't acceptable, but I understand the reason why it must be done.

A couple verses I haven't posted before (at least I don't recall posting them):

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I'm certainly no expert on Islam, but I do know there are varied opinions on positions of apostasy, "the sword verse", etc....still, it's a bit scary to think that although the majority may not  hold to a "death for apostasy" stance that some Muslims do.  It's those sects that are dangerous for Christian and Muslim alike.

I should note that the majority of Christian theologists/teachers don't typically allow their students to justify their positions based upon Wikipedia references.  I'm not saying that what you posted is incorrect and that all of Wikipedia is flawed, but the majority of scholarship tends to avoid it's use.
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« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2012, 11:59:42 AM »

He also referred to himself as king and as God.  A couple verses I haven't posted before (at least I don't recall posting them):

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John 8:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Unless you have some type of magic goggles that I'm not wearing, I don't see any quote of the bolded text in the two verses you posted?  Smiley


I'm certainly no expert on Islam, but I do know there are varied opinions on positions of apostasy, "the sword verse", etc....still, it's a bit scary to think that although the majority may not  hold to a "death for apostasy" stance that some Muslims do.  It's those sects that are dangerous for Christian and Muslim alike.

I should note that the majority of Christian theologists/teachers don't typically allow their students to justify their positions based upon Wikipedia references.  I'm not saying that what you posted is incorrect and that all of Wikipedia is flawed, but the majority of scholarship tends to avoid it's use.

I'm no expert either, from my limited understanding I believe the misunderstanding that apostates must be killed today is due to the fact that some hadiths indicated historically that this was considered treason, a crime which is also punishable by death in many parts of the world today (Canada and US too I believe).  Why was denouncing one's faith considered treason?  Because back then Muslims were united under a single nation, as were other religious groups, and virtually all members of each nation were part of the army so to speak.  So leaving Islam usually meant leaving the army and joining another, a form of treason, and in these cases it was punishable by death, again similar to what we have in north america today.  Perhaps Ahmed knows better than me, but that's my understanding.
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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2012, 12:24:31 PM »

Unless you have some type of magic goggles that I'm not wearing, I don't see any quote of the bolded text in the two verses you posted?  Smiley

I'm no expert either, from my limited understanding I believe the misunderstanding that apostates must be killed today is due to the fact that some hadiths indicated historically that this was considered treason, a crime which is also punishable by death in many parts of the world today (Canada and US too I believe).  Why was denouncing one's faith considered treason?  Because back then Muslims were united under a single nation, as were other religious groups, and virtually all members of each nation were part of the army so to speak.  So leaving Islam usually meant leaving the army and joining another, a form of treason, and in these cases it was punishable by death, again similar to what we have in north america today.  Perhaps Ahmed knows better than me, but that's my understanding.

When Christ referred to himself as I AM, he was referring to his eternal name spoken to Moses in the OT.   "I AM" is the eternal name of God.

Exodus 3:13-15
New Living Translation (NLT)

13 But Moses protested, “If I go to the people of Israel and tell them, ‘The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,’ they will ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what should I tell them?”

14 God replied to Moses, “I Am Who I Am.[a] Say this to the people of Israel: I Am has sent me to you.” 15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.

This is my eternal name,
    my name to remember for all generations.

That's a pretty bold claim for a prophet.

Ok, so the position of "death for apostasy" was more of a claim by Muhammad in the Hadith, but not necessarily scripture from the Qu'ran?  I learned something new today.....who am I kidding?  I learn something new almost everyday.   So as I understand it, in some sects the Hadith is considered as sacred as the Qu'ran, but not in others, correct?  
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« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2012, 02:07:31 PM »

The "I am" part does not say "I am God" LMAO... it just says before Abraham was "I AM" which as most christians and jews know is how God called himself to the people. It does not mean Jesus called himself this

and the 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

That just indicates that they are hawty and do not really believe, they reject Jesus, they reject him as from God. As many past nations and later even those around Muhammad (pbuh) were. Rejecting the prophets  and messengers of God, drenched in sin and disbelieving, rejecting the word of God

As far as the ruling for apostasy it does exist in the bible as it exists in Islam. Except the rulings in the bible are far more harsh. Christians were killing 'heretics' all the time.

The difference is, according to Islam, the ruling first time came when the hypocrites and disbelievers would pretend to embrace Islam by day and leave Islam by night, non-stop, so to demoralize the Muslims, they really did not become Muslim.

As such when the ruling came they were cowards and wouldn't pretend no more.

Secondly anyone who as an act of treason betrayed the Muslims and started fighting the Muslims he would be punishable by the law of apostasy.

Treason has always been punishable under any nation.
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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2012, 02:16:38 PM »

You can only fool yourself and others who don't know

Lets look at the other verses to further shed some light:

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

Just as Muhammad (pbuh) and every other prophet and messenger did!

Indeed you must have some magical goggles like bigbobs said... you want to see the trinity in everything when it's not there, it does not exist and there is no such thing, only in your wishful thinking.
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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2012, 02:21:02 PM »

The "I am" part does not say "I am God" LMAO... it just says before Abraham was "I AM" which as most christians and jews know is how God called himself to the people. It does not mean Jesus called himself this

and the 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

That just indicates that they are hawty and do not really believe, they reject Jesus, they reject him as from God. As many past nations and later even those around Muhammad (pbuh) were. Rejecting the prophets  and messengers of God, drenched in sin and disbelieving, rejecting the word of God

As far as the ruling for apostasy it does exist in the bible as it exists in Islam. Except the rulings in the bible are far more harsh. Christians were killing 'heretics' all the time.

The difference is, according to Islam, the ruling first time came when the hypocrites and disbelievers would pretend to embrace Islam by day and leave Islam by night, non-stop, so to demoralize the Muslims, they really did not become Muslim.

As such when the ruling came they were cowards and wouldn't pretend no more.

Secondly anyone who as an act of treason betrayed the Muslims and started fighting the Muslims he would be punishable by the law of apostasy.

Treason has always been punishable under any nation.

I had 2 verses....please explain this following:

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2012, 02:22:43 PM »

And to shed some more light just for the BAM factor:

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

^Because the jews were rejecting Jesus as a prophet and messenger, they wanted to kill him.
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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2012, 02:23:32 PM »

I had 2 verses....please explain this following:

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.



I already did scroll up. it doesn't say "I AM GOD" it says before abraham was "I AM" which means before Abraham was God. I am as you yourself explained is what God refered to himself to be called by the Jews. Yahweh.



It's amazing what happens when you don't quote just one line, but read what's in between! I posted those in betweens all above, showcasing Jesus saying he was sent by God, he is following only what God told him to do, he even refered to himself as son of man, etc... lol

Stop this trinity delusion bro... it's not good for you.
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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2012, 02:26:25 PM »

You can only fool yourself and others who don't know

Lets look at the other verses to further shed some light:

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,” Jesus replied. 26 “I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy, and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”

27 They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28 So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up[a] the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.” 30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

Just as Muhammad (pbuh) and every other prophet and messenger did!

Indeed you must have some magical goggles like bigbobs said... you want to see the trinity in everything when it's not there, it does not exist and there is no such thing, only in your wishful thinking.
Great, you've added some additional verses in addition to a mandatory ahmed insult, but as usual forgot an explanation. 

Christ made it clear that the Son of God submits to the Father and we also now that the Son of God as a man was purposefully limited in power and knowledge, but no less divine.  The limited form was purposefully chosen not forced. 

So, again explain the additional verses and leave out the patented ahmed insults and jabs.
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2012, 02:29:00 PM »

And to shed some more light just for the BAM factor:

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

^Because the jews were rejecting Jesus as a prophet and messenger, they wanted to kill him.

You should really consider verse 44 carefully ahmed.
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2012, 02:32:34 PM »

I already did scroll up. it doesn't say "I AM GOD" it says before abraham was "I AM" which means before Abraham was God. I am as you yourself explained is what God refered to himself to be called by the Jews. Yahweh.



It's amazing what happens when you don't quote just one line, but read what's in between! I posted those in betweens all above, showcasing Jesus saying he was sent by God, he is following only what God told him to do, he even refered to himself as son of man, etc... lol

Stop this trinity delusion bro... it's not good for you.

I'm sorry but that is incorrect.  

Exodus 3:15
New Living Translation (NLT)

15 God also said to Moses, “Say this to the people of Israel: Yahweh,[a] the God of your ancestors—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.

This is my eternal name,
    my name to remember for all generations.

John 8:58
King James Version (KJV)

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Double use of "I am" in verse 58....indicates Jesus' eternal existance and affirmation that he is "I am".

And LOL to taking verses out of context....oh please ahmed.....PLEASE....pot meet kettle.  I posted some much context around your cherry picked verses I've probably posted half the NT.
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2012, 02:57:45 PM »

I am baffled how you can interpret that verse saying "I am God"

Maybe it could be less ambigious if it "I jesus, was before Abraham as God or I am God before Abraham". lol

And why are you laughing? Joke is on you. You tried to quote hop and skip a few verses in that chapter, I posted a few that you didn't want your audience to see which illustrate Jesus establishing the fact that he was sent by God, only does God's bidding, was thought by God, does God's work, etc... and calls himself son of Man not "I AM GOD". lol

You still none hte less prove only one thing, you are using singled out ambiguous verses which ironically get heavily contradicted as I demonstrated outright destroying any notion of Jesus saying he is God when he describes himself and what he is doing, who sent him, etc...
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2012, 04:37:47 PM »

I am baffled how you can interpret that verse saying "I am God"

Maybe it could be less ambigious if it "I jesus, was before Abraham as God or I am God before Abraham". lol

And why are you laughing? Joke is on you. You tried to quote hop and skip a few verses in that chapter, I posted a few that you didn't want your audience to see which illustrate Jesus establishing the fact that he was sent by God, only does God's bidding, was thought by God, does God's work, etc... and calls himself son of Man not "I AM GOD". lol

You still none hte less prove only one thing, you are using singled out ambiguous verses which ironically get heavily contradicted as I demonstrated outright destroying any notion of Jesus saying he is God when he describes himself and what he is doing, who sent him, etc...

When faced with scripture where Jesus clearly indicates he was sent by God, inferior to God, etc. Man of Steel replies (without scriptural backup) to explain that Jesus and God are the same entity, one a form which was intentionally limited and spoke to himself despite this having bipolar implications.

Anyone who is reading this can use their own common sense to see whose interpretation of scripture makes most sense.
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2012, 04:47:14 PM »

Regarding the "Before Abraham was, I am" line, MOS I don't see how you can interpret this as being Jesus claiming he is God.

I interpreted from your post that you were suggesting that God's name is "I am"?  Correct me if I'm wrong.  But then you quoted support that His name is "Yahweh" and not "I am?" 

Even if God's name was "I am" substituting Jesus for "I am" would make the verse read, "Before Abraham was, Jesus."  This still would not be a declaration from Jesus that he is God.

Like I said, ambigious and debatable verses you give since there is no black and white scripture to support your belief that Jesus was God.
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2012, 05:18:53 PM »


Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.
 

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.
 

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.
 

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.
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« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2012, 06:00:47 PM »

Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.”—Deuteronomy 6:4.
 

“You, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18.
 

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.
 

“God is only one.”—Galatians 3:20.


Welcome scottt, can you please elaborate what your purpose of posting the above verses is, or your interpretation of them?  Especially the text I bolded.
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« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2012, 06:06:56 PM »

I hate the trinity teaching.
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« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2012, 06:53:28 PM »

I hate the trinity teaching.

I don't blame you, it goes against Biblical scripture.  Sounds like your view on Jesus and God is not much different than what Muslims believe of Jesus and God?
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