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Author Topic: Read the book of Matthew  (Read 8671 times)
scottt
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« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2012, 07:26:07 PM »


 



 

We must pray to God in Jesus’ name because this is the only way God has approved for us to approach Him. Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) Jesus also told his faithful apostles: “Most truly I say to you, If you ask the Father for anything he will give it to you in my name.”—John 16:23.
 

 We honor Jesus and his Father, Jehovah God.—Philippians 2:9-11.
 We show that we appreciate Jesus’ death as God’s provision for our salvation.—Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12.
 We recognize Jesus’ unique role as Intercessor between God and men.—Hebrews 7:25.
 We respect Jesus’ service as the High Priest who can help us gain a good standing with God.—Hebrews 4:14
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« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2012, 01:13:32 PM »

I am baffled how you can interpret that verse saying "I am God"

Maybe it could be less ambigious if it "I jesus, was before Abraham as God or I am God before Abraham". lol

And why are you laughing? Joke is on you. You tried to quote hop and skip a few verses in that chapter, I posted a few that you didn't want your audience to see which illustrate Jesus establishing the fact that he was sent by God, only does God's bidding, was thought by God, does God's work, etc... and calls himself son of Man not "I AM GOD". lol

You still none hte less prove only one thing, you are using singled out ambiguous verses which ironically get heavily contradicted as I demonstrated outright destroying any notion of Jesus saying he is God when he describes himself and what he is doing, who sent him, etc...

Ok, fair enough, I stand behind scripture.  To prevent the "quote hopping" bit, I'll post the entire chapter around a verse from now on.  I expect you'll do the same correct?  
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« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2012, 01:30:40 PM »

Regarding the "Before Abraham was, I am" line, MOS I don't see how you can interpret this as being Jesus claiming he is God.

I interpreted from your post that you were suggesting that God's name is "I am"?  Correct me if I'm wrong.  But then you quoted support that His name is "Yahweh" and not "I am?" 

Even if God's name was "I am" substituting Jesus for "I am" would make the verse read, "Before Abraham was, Jesus."  This still would not be a declaration from Jesus that he is God.

Like I said, ambigious and debatable verses you give since there is no black and white scripture to support your belief that Jesus was God.

"I am that I am" in Hebrew is translated "hayah" that is connected to the derivation of Yahweh; in essence "I AM" is Yahweh (translated as Jehovah) which is the eternal name of God.  So as you mentioned, "substituting Jesus for 'I am' would make the verse read, 'Before Abraham was, Jesus.'  That said, Jesus = I AM = Yahweh = Jehovah = God.   
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« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2012, 01:33:01 PM »

Didn't I rule on this a couple weeks ago?.. Wink
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« Reply #54 on: November 13, 2012, 01:38:24 PM »

Didn't I rule on this a couple weeks ago?.. Wink

Please don't take offense, your posts are appreciated and life changing....my wife and I read aloud from your post history just last night!  Cheesy
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« Reply #55 on: November 13, 2012, 02:16:15 PM »

Please don't take offense, your posts are appreciated and life changing....my wife and I read aloud from your post history just last night!  Cheesy

Ok..that one did crack me up.. nice job Wink
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« Reply #56 on: November 13, 2012, 02:20:18 PM »

"I am that I am" in Hebrew is translated "hayah" that is connected to the derivation of Yahweh; in essence "I AM" is Yahweh (translated as Jehovah) which is the eternal name of God.  So as you mentioned, "substituting Jesus for 'I am' would make the verse read, 'Before Abraham was, Jesus.'  That said, Jesus = I AM = Yahweh = Jehovah = God.   

Yeah except it says before Abraham was, I am. It doesn't say Jesus lol.
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« Reply #57 on: November 13, 2012, 04:30:10 PM »

Yeah except it says before Abraham was, I am. It doesn't say Jesus lol.

Whenever MOS tries to provide a verse to show he thinks Jesus claimed to be God it results in pages of replies and analysis, simply because there is no statement from Jesus claiming to be God, so the ones presented are ambigious.
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« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2012, 08:40:57 AM »

Whenever MOS tries to provide a verse to show he thinks Jesus claimed to be God it results in pages of replies and analysis, simply because there is no statement from Jesus claiming to be God, so the ones presented are ambigious.

agreed.
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« Reply #59 on: November 14, 2012, 10:22:41 AM »

Yeah except it says before Abraham was, I am. It doesn't say Jesus lol.

Whenever MOS tries to provide a verse to show he thinks Jesus claimed to be God it results in pages of replies and analysis, simply because there is no statement from Jesus claiming to be God, so the ones presented are ambigious.

It's ok that you don't agree with me....you're free to do so. 

Ravi Zacharias gave me a great reminder the other day that the mission of Christ is love and how incredibly difficult it is at times to love others that insult, mock, attack and belittle believers in Christ, but I'm going to do my level best to spread the message of salvation through Christ and love those that clearly have nothing but disdain for me.  This isn't the first, second, third, fourth or fifth time either I've encountered these situations and it certainly won't be last.

That said, my Muslim brothers, I've now reached the unfortunate, undesired point in which it is time for me to shake the dust from my feet.

God Bless

MOS
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« Reply #60 on: November 14, 2012, 11:12:46 AM »

It's ok that you don't agree with me....you're free to do so.  

Ravi Zacharias gave me a great reminder the other day that the mission of Christ is love and how incredibly difficult it is at times to love others that insult, mock, attack and belittle believers in Christ, but I'm going to do my level best to spread the message of salvation through Christ and love those that clearly have nothing but disdain for me.   This isn't the first, second, third, fourth or fifth time either I've encountered these situations and it certainly won't be last.

That said, my Muslim brothers, I've now reached the unfortunate, undesired point in which it is time for me to shake the dust from my feet.

God Bless

MOS

I don't believe I've done any of what I bolded from your quote.  

We can agree to disagree as to whether the verses you showed indicate that Jesus is God, however I don't believe you can disagree with me that there is no CLEAR verse stating that Jesus is God, such as "I am God.  God is three" etc.  

That's basically what I meant when I said that the evidence you do show results in pages of back-and-forth replies simply because there is no clear verse that you can provide which would leave nothing to analysis and interpretation, and hence not all the back-and-fourth analysis and pages of replies.
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« Reply #61 on: November 14, 2012, 11:27:59 AM »

I don't believe I've done any of what I bolded from your quote.  

We can agree to disagree as to whether the verses you showed indicate that Jesus is God, however I don't believe you can disagree with me that there is no CLEAR verse stating that Jesus is God, such as "I am God.  God is three" etc.  

That's basically what I meant when I said that the evidence you do show results in pages of back-and-forth replies simply because there is no clear verse that you can provide which would leave nothing to analysis and interpretation, and hence not all the back-and-fourth analysis and pages of replies.

Kinda of the beauty and disdain of the bible in a nutshell .. so much is vague, contradictory and confusing that anyone can interpret pretty much what they want from it. Which explains the multitude of denominations
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« Reply #62 on: November 14, 2012, 11:54:06 AM »

I think you stopped your last sentence a bit short so I finished it for you Smiley

Kinda of the beauty and disdain of the bible in a nutshell .. so much is vague, contradictory and confusing that anyone can interpret pretty much what they want from it. Which explains the multitude of denominations and the need for the subsequent revelation from God in order to guide us (the Quran) which does not contain such contradictions and confusion.
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« Reply #63 on: November 14, 2012, 12:40:35 PM »

I don't believe I've done any of what I bolded from your quote.  

We can agree to disagree as to whether the verses you showed indicate that Jesus is God, however I don't believe you can disagree with me that there is no CLEAR verse stating that Jesus is God, such as "I am God.  God is three" etc.  

That's basically what I meant when I said that the evidence you do show results in pages of back-and-forth replies simply because there is no clear verse that you can provide which would leave nothing to analysis and interpretation, and hence not all the back-and-fourth analysis and pages of replies.

No, let me be clear that you have not been ugly or inappropriate....that was clearly directed at ahmed.  Still, it is time for me to discontinue the back and forth as it holds no value for the audience.  It's more appropriate that I share the gospel with others as y'all have clearly made your choice for Islam.  

I think you stopped your last sentence a bit short so I finished it for you Smiley

"and the need for the subsequent revelation from God in order to guide us (the Quran) which does not contain such contradictions and confusion."

No confusion or ambiquity whatsoever  Wink :

Sura 91
By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;
By the Moon as she follows him;
By the Day as it shows up (the Sun's) glory;
By the Night as it conceals it;
By the Firmament and its (wonderful) structure;
By the Earth and its (wide) expanse:
By the Soul, and the proportion and order given to it;
And its enlightenment as to its wrong and its right;-
Truly he succeeds that purifies it,
And he fails that corrupts it!
The Thamud (people) rejected (their prophet) through their inordinate wrong-doing,
Behold, the most wicked man among them was deputed (for impiety).
But the Apostle of Allah said to them: "It is a She-camel of Allah! And (bar her not from) having her drink!"
Then they rejected him (as a false prophet), and they hamstrung her. So their Lord, on account of their crime, obliterated their traces and made them equal (in destruction, high and low)!
And for Him is no fear of its consequences.


Sura 97
We have indeed revealed this (Message) in the Night of Power:
And what will explain to thee what the night of power is?
The Night of Power is better than a thousand months.
Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by Allah's permission, on every errand:
Peace!...This until the rise of morn!


Sura 105
Seest thou not how thy Lord dealt with the Companions of the Elephant?
Did He not make their treacherous plan go astray?
And He sent against them Flights of Birds,
Striking them with stones of baked clay.
Then did He make them like an empty field of stalks and straw, (of which the corn) has been eaten up.


Sura 109
Say : O ye that reject Faith!
I worship not that which ye worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
To you be your Way, and to me mine.


Sura 111
Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he!
No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains!
Burnt soon will he be in a Fire of Blazing Flame!
His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - As fuel!-
A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre round her (own) neck!


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« Reply #64 on: November 14, 2012, 02:17:05 PM »

No, let me be clear that you have not been ugly or inappropriate....that was clearly directed at ahmed.

Unfortunately you find it insulting that I say that you are preaching pantheism and polytheism. In fact what you have in a few parts preached has been even far off from Christian dogma and doctrine. Your whole premise is to try to induce people to accept that a human being is God and through creative ways explain the trinity but how can one explain something that is untrue?

Quote

No confusion or ambiquity whatsoever  Wink :

Sura 91

This surah is rather short and is poetic in nature, you obviously do not appreciate it and obviously don't know the story it relates as it is unknown to you personally.

It then describes the fate of Thamud, a formerly prosperous extinct Arab tribe. The prophet Saleh urged them to worship God alone, and commanded them in God's name to preserve a certain she-camel; they disobeyed and continued to reject his message, and God destroyed them all except those who had followed Salih.

They were sent a she-camel as a miracle, but ultimately killed it in ridicule disobeyed the commandments given to them and disobeyed the prophet who kept warning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash-Shams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleh

Quote
Sura 97

Speaks of laylatul qadr, the night of power which is a time found within the last ten days of ramadan. It is the night of decree. It has much significance for us

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laylat_al-Qadr

Quote
Sura 105
Again you are not familiar with the story therefore its 'ambiguous' to you.

It was an army sent forth to destroy the kaba before Islam. "The year of the elephant" and it is also the year when Muhammad (pbuh) was born. A plot by a Christian viceroy from sabaa in yemen. It was his plot to take over the arabs and force them to accept christianity. It was a reminder from God to the qureish how God protected them when they could have been wiped out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fil

Quote
Sura 109
A beautiful surah nothing ambigious at all. It is a verse which we could recite to you and quite the closure indeed. As it says oh you who reject faith, I do not worship what you worship and you do not worship what I worship. Nor will I worship that which you worship (a human) nor will you worship what I worship (God).

It is a general verse when disagreement comes between believers and disbelievers.

There is a hadith of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and this verse when the pagan qureish offered Muhammad women, power, wealth, to be even the king of the arabs, etc... and he rejected them and said he would not trade faith even if the sun and the moon were put in his palms.



Quote
Sura 111
Yet again since you don't know the story, it relates to the accursed abu lahab, abu jahal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surah_Al-Masadd


It is the uncle of Muhammad (pbuh) who was a staunch pagan and opponent of Islam. He was also known as abu lahab.

A promised curse in the hellfire. Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal used to joke that they would embrace islam to prove untrue the qur'an and Muhammad's revelation. Yet they did not. They remained disbelievers and this surah remains true. They died as accursed disbelievers.


They tortured and persecuted muslims till the day they were killed in battle.

They were the greatest enemies of Muhammad (pbuh) yet they were his uncles! Abu lahab used to throw garbage in the house of Muhammad (pbuh), anything and everything horrible you can imagine this man tried to do upon Muhammad, Islam, Muslims, etc... he took pleasure in torture of Muslims.
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« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2012, 04:19:18 PM »

Unfortunately you find it insulting that I say that you are preaching pantheism and polytheism. In fact what you have in a few parts preached has been even far off from Christian dogma and doctrine. Your whole premise is to try to induce people to accept that a human being is God and through creative ways explain the trinity but how can one explain something that is untrue?

This surah is rather short and is poetic in nature, you obviously do not appreciate it and obviously don't know the story it relates as it is unknown to you personally.

It then describes the fate of Thamud, a formerly prosperous extinct Arab tribe. The prophet Saleh urged them to worship God alone, and commanded them in God's name to preserve a certain she-camel; they disobeyed and continued to reject his message, and God destroyed them all except those who had followed Salih.

They were sent a she-camel as a miracle, but ultimately killed it in ridicule disobeyed the commandments given to them and disobeyed the prophet who kept warning them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ash-Shams

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleh

Speaks of laylatul qadr, the night of power which is a time found within the last ten days of ramadan. It is the night of decree. It has much significance for us

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laylat_al-Qadr
Again you are not familiar with the story therefore its 'ambiguous' to you.

It was an army sent forth to destroy the kaba before Islam. "The year of the elephant" and it is also the year when Muhammad (pbuh) was born. A plot by a Christian viceroy from sabaa in yemen. It was his plot to take over the arabs and force them to accept christianity. It was a reminder from God to the qureish how God protected them when they could have been wiped out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Fil
A beautiful surah nothing ambigious at all. It is a verse which we could recite to you and quite the closure indeed. As it says oh you who reject faith, I do not worship what you worship and you do not worship what I worship. Nor will I worship that which you worship (a human) nor will you worship what I worship (God).

It is a general verse when disagreement comes between believers and disbelievers.

There is a hadith of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and this verse when the pagan qureish offered Muhammad women, power, wealth, to be even the king of the arabs, etc... and he rejected them and said he would not trade faith even if the sun and the moon were put in his palms.


Yet again since you don't know the story, it relates to the accursed abu lahab, abu jahal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surah_Al-Masadd


It is the uncle of Muhammad (pbuh) who was a staunch pagan and opponent of Islam. He was also known as abu lahab.

A promised curse in the hellfire. Abu Lahab and Abu Jahal used to joke that they would embrace islam to prove untrue the qur'an and Muhammad's revelation. Yet they did not. They remained disbelievers and this surah remains true. They died as accursed disbelievers.


They tortured and persecuted muslims till the day they were killed in battle.

They were the greatest enemies of Muhammad (pbuh) yet they were his uncles! Abu lahab used to throw garbage in the house of Muhammad (pbuh), anything and everything horrible you can imagine this man tried to do upon Muhammad, Islam, Muslims, etc... he took pleasure in torture of Muslims.

Ambiguous and confusing....sura 109 reads like dialogue for Chrissy Snow's character on Three's Company.  The fact that you had to explain it and surround it all in context or call it beautiful doesn't mean much......these passages are extremely ambiguous and confusing context or not.
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« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2012, 04:26:59 PM »

No it shows that I know what is being mentioned and that you don't hence maybe you're just ignorant of the background story and copy pasted it because you saw it somewhere mentioned like that?  Roll Eyes It helps to read the whole qur'an, read the commentary (which is readily available) and the seerah (the historical accounts, biography, etc... relating to Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), his companions, etc...) and not be some random dude on the internet that decides to copy paste something.

If you narrated some bible story to someone about some dude with a boat and had a few poetic lines, to say a hindu. He would go who? What are you talking about? Because he's clueless about that story.

Likewise if some hindu narrated about the 'gods' and how they had family disputes, you would go wait what? Cousin who?

It takes reading to know things, you don't just hop to copy paste. Believe me if someone took a bible and randomly opened it somewhere, they would go what the hell is going on.

Your weak attempt at giving yourself credit, still doesn't change the fact there isn't a single statement showcasing the trinity being preached by Jesus or Jesus claiming he is God almighty. Only your ambigious selection and interpretation of verses.
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« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2012, 04:59:01 PM »

No it shows that I know what is being mentioned and that you don't hence maybe you're just ignorant of the background story and copy pasted it because you saw it somewhere mentioned like that?  Roll Eyes It helps to read the whole qur'an, read the commentary (which is readily available) and the seerah (the historical accounts, biography, etc... relating to Islam, Muhammad (pbuh), his companions, etc...) and not be some random dude on the internet that decides to copy paste something.

If you narrated some bible story to someone about some dude with a boat and had a few poetic lines, to say a hindu. He would go who? What are you talking about? Because he's clueless about that story.

Likewise if some hindu narrated about the 'gods' and how they had family disputes, you would go wait what? Cousin who?

It takes reading to know things, you don't just hop to copy paste. Believe me if someone took a bible and randomly opened it somewhere, they would go what the hell is going on.

Your weak attempt at giving yourself credit, still doesn't change the fact there isn't a single statement showcasing the trinity being preached by Jesus or Jesus claiming he is God almighty. Only your ambigious selection and interpretation of verses.

Actually I'm in the middle of a book on Islam at the moment and thinking about ordering another book as well for another perspective.  Been praying a lot about it as well.  

The history of Islam and all its tenets have been highly interesting to learn about....has put a TON of things in perspective.  

I've watched hours and hours of debates online as well....many hosted by the Muslim community and many by the Christian community.  Almost all the Muslims engaging in the debates react exactly like you do; basically, regardless of the evidence the Muslim is infallible and everyone else that disagrees is deemed completely wrong...every time.  Either you're in full agreement or you're an insane moron.  Many times I've watched these debates and wondered, "Why are these Christian men versed in these situations (and Islam) engaging in these debates when they know the result already?"  Then I realized it's about reaching others not the participants....the Muslim debate participants have clearly made their choice, it's about everyone else.  Now, there are some Muslim debators that are highly engaging and respectful, but one Muslim debator began a rant and ended with "Christian dogs!!"....it was fun...and telling.  

Will I take time to read the entire Quran?  I'll have to pray about that before I would engage in such an activity.  I have read sections of it online, but not the entire book.  When I begin to deep dive a bit I'm convicted by the Holy Spirit.
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« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2012, 05:19:38 PM »

Quote
I'll have to pray about that before I would engage in such an activity.  I have read sections of it online, but not the entire book.  When I begin to deep dive a bit I'm convicted by the Holy Spirit.

I became Muslim after studying Christianity in depth and other religions in depth. But the qur'an ultimately answered all my questions I had about the bible, trinity and all the other doubts I had. You cannot appreciate the uniqueness and beauty of the qur'an if you have preconceived notions. It is poetic yet it is not poetry. It is so simpleton and simple, yet filled with meaning. Something so deep can be explained so very simplistic for the most illiterate man to understand and feel in the depth of his soul.

Obviously certain things you may not understand if you do not have a background understanding and that is true for anything and everything but the resources are available as I have mentioned.

Reading the qur'an with tafsir, reading the seerah. Listening to some lectures BY muslims on the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions.

Remember the qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years and each revealed verse had a purpose and setting. Past, present and future-tense.

When I wanted to find answers I put my trust in God, not my preconceived or shaped notions be it by my priest, church, pastor or whoever.

The fact remains, Jesus never thought the trinity and Jesus never proclaimed he is God. That's why you need to debate it and try to prove it to others as Bigbobs said, over pages and pages of debates and argumentation. The fact is if you study christian history you will see that this very topic was debated by the roman church and for how long? People were killed over it!

On the other hand we Muslims don't have a problem, we say God is one, the creator and not the creation. The end. No need for debate it's crystal clear.

If you want to be a scholar on the qur'an it helps to study in depth and that takes years of scholarship. However a Christian claiming to be a 'scholar' of islam will always be indeed twisted with preconcieved notions, hence our knowledge of Islam comes from learned Muslim scholars.

Even a work such as the full volume of commentary on qur'an with all explanations, defintiions, etc... spans volumes:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591440203?ie=UTF8&tag=wweb-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1591440203

This is just one from ibn khatir. However this is the DETAILED volume. Simple layman commentary exists to give background understanding of who, where, when, what is being talked of in the qur'an.

This being said, it does not take scholarship to understand the simple beauty and message of Islam.

It is the same as for example non-muslims quoting verses from the qur'an and not knowing their context then claiming things about Islam! Such as, the 'fighting verses' and how it is to 'kill all unbelievers'. It's ignorant.

However as a former Christian I know that even Christians do this to the bible! EVERY Christian will interpret the bible as they see fit... hence Christianity has become a religion of convenience. That is why amongst Christians you will always find uncertainty on trinity, who God is, who Jesus is, etc... Everyone will give their own version.

I found this a great problem as a Christian. How can God's word be flawed, contradicting, lying to me, etc..? God does not lie, God does not confuse, only humans do this!
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« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2012, 05:42:00 PM »

I became Muslim after studying Christianity in depth and other religions in depth. But the qur'an ultimately answered all my questions I had about the bible, trinity and all the other doubts I had. You cannot appreciate the uniqueness and beauty of the qur'an if you have preconceived notions. It is poetic yet it is not poetry. It is so simpleton and simple, yet filled with meaning. Something so deep can be explained so very simplistic for the most illiterate man to understand and feel in the depth of his soul.

Obviously certain things you may not understand if you do not have a background understanding and that is true for anything and everything but the resources are available as I have mentioned.

Reading the qur'an with tafsir, reading the seerah. Listening to some lectures BY muslims on the biography of Muhammad (pbuh) and his companions.

Remember the qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years and each revealed verse had a purpose and setting. Past, present and future-tense.

When I wanted to find answers I put my trust in God, not my preconceived or shaped notions be it by my priest, church, pastor or whoever.

The fact remains, Jesus never thought the trinity and Jesus never proclaimed he is God. That's why you need to debate it and try to prove it to others as Bigbobs said, over pages and pages of debates and argumentation. The fact is if you study christian history you will see that this very topic was debated by the roman church and for how long? People were killed over it!

On the other hand we Muslims don't have a problem, we say God is one, the creator and not the creation. The end. No need for debate it's crystal clear.

If you want to be a scholar on the qur'an it helps to study in depth and that takes years of scholarship. However a Christian claiming to be a 'scholar' of islam will always be indeed twisted with preconcieved notions, hence our knowledge of Islam comes from learned Muslim scholars.

Even a work such as the full volume of commentary on qur'an with all explanations, defintiions, etc... spans volumes:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1591440203?ie=UTF8&tag=wweb-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1591440203

This is just one from ibn khatir. However this is the DETAILED volume. Simple layman commentary exists to give background understanding of who, where, when, what is being talked of in the qur'an.

This being said, it does not take scholarship to understand the simple beauty and message of Islam.

It is the same as for example non-muslims quoting verses from the qur'an and not knowing their context then claiming things about Islam! Such as, the 'fighting verses' and how it is to 'kill all unbelievers'. It's ignorant.

However as a former Christian I know that even Christians do this to the bible! EVERY Christian will interpret the bible as they see fit... hence Christianity has become a religion of convenience. That is why amongst Christians you will always find uncertainty on trinity, who God is, who Jesus is, etc... Everyone will give their own version.

I found this a great problem as a Christian. How can God's word be flawed, contradicting, lying to me, etc..? God does not lie, God does not confuse, only humans do this!

I spent years questioning "am I really a Christian....do I really believe this".  It was in the solitude of my home (when I was alone and unable to leave and move much for months) and within the solitude of my hospital room in which I truly the encountered the Holy Spirit and surrendered completely to it.  Like you I have had incredible dreams, but the more important experiences have happened when I'm fully awake in private moments of prayer and worship.  No churches, no priests, no pastors, no audience, no wife, no child....just me and the Lord.

Jesus did affirm he was God and proclaimed it, but I will never convince you of that and I accept that now.  I was conflicted by that very thing for many weeks until I earnestly prayed about it and the Holy Spirit revealed to me my flaws and gave me clarity.

All things have been created through Jesus Christ, but again I know I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

I know you claim to be a former Christian, but have no concept of the Holy Spirit and deny it completely.  I know I will never ever convince you of the reality of the Holy Spirit and I accept that now.

You're also right that scholarship takes years of study, but tangibly experiencing the life changing presence of the Holy Spirit takes only moments.  Still, I know I will never convince  you of that fact and I accept that now.

You're also right that experiencing the beauty and simple message of the Quran doens't take years of study, but because that simple message stands in direct opposition to salvation through our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that simple message is clearly sourced from the ruler of this world.  Again, I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

Christians are trinitarian monotheists believing in one God, but again I know I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

You're also right that God doesn't lie or contradict himself, but the ruler of this world moves about like a roaring lion looking to devour his prey.  He is the ultimate master of deception that has convinced multitudes that Jesus is not the way, that he was not resurrected, that he is not God, that it's about works and that salvation through Christ is not needed.  Again, I know I will never convince you that this is the case and I accept that now.

That said, I regrettably shake the dust from my feet and move on.
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Agnostic007
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« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2012, 05:42:28 PM »

I think you stopped your last sentence a bit short so I finished it for you Smiley


Well, there seems to be a problem with the quran. There are people who read it and take from it some very bad things. They don't agree with you on what some of the contents mean. They would/will die defending their version, believing it is from god. So you don't get off that easily.    
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2012, 06:13:46 PM »

I spent years questioning "am I really a Christian....do I really believe this".  It was in the solitude of my home (when I was alone and unable to leave and move much for months) and within the solitude of my hospital room in which I truly the encountered the Holy Spirit and surrendered completely to it.  Like you I have had incredible dreams, but the more important experiences have happened when I'm fully awake in private moments of prayer and worship.  No churches, no priests, no pastors, no audience, no wife, no child....just me and the Lord.

What you have discovered is that God is near us all, in every situation, and our life has purpose and meaning. Not coincidence or chance. All of us ultimately experience this. Whether its some sort of epiphany or self exploration, etc... I have been through this myself many of us have. Even bigbobs have, but that's his personal story.

You have just from only knowing christianity accepted the idea that it is the 'trinity' or 'holy spirit'

Even hindus have these experiences, but they falsely attribute it to vishnu, hanuman, and their many idols.

It doesn't change the fact that God is present and exists. Just that humans in their own lack of knowledge attribute to God that which is not.

God provides for those that believe and disbelieve. Teaches, heals and provides for all mankind even if we are ungrateful and haughty.

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Jesus did affirm he was God and proclaimed it, but I will never convince you of that and I accept that now.  I was conflicted by that very thing for many weeks until I earnestly prayed about it and the Holy Spirit revealed to me my flaws and gave me clarity.

No you convinced yourself of this and keep repeating it. That's not proof. If we are to look for PROOF it must come from somewhere.

If it weren't for your education in the trinity, you would not know or believe in the trinity. Period.

Just as I told you, my dream, how can you interpret someone telling you that there is only one God that THEY ARE God even though they are merely a messenger to you as Jesus was in my dream?

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All things have been created through Jesus Christ, but again I know I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

Again, an emotional statement back by your own wishes not facts. Jesus was created and was in the womb of mary for 9 months. Created by God, chosen by God, sent by God, doing God's commandments and serving God all as mentioned  according to the new testament.

So you make claims that sound like they are scriptural but they are not at all. Only your own utterance bro.

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I know you claim to be a former Christian, but have no concept of the Holy Spirit and deny it completely.  I know I will never ever convince you of the reality of the Holy Spirit and I accept that now.

Because I understood that there are no such things. Jesus never thought such things. Jesus never thought the trinity. He thought what we Muslims believe. God is one. Not trinity.

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You're also right that scholarship takes years of study, but tangibly experiencing the life changing presence of the Holy Spirit takes only moments.  Still, I know I will never convince  you of that fact and I accept that now.

Again as mentioned earlier, it doesn't take more than a few moments to realize God exists if you find faith through self exploration, thats how we all come to it. So have I. I used to sit alone, I used to sit on a bus and observe people, observe the trees and all things in nature, look at the sky, be fascinated by science and how things work, amongst othe rthings. I used to ponder on our existence, ourselves as humans and many many other htings. However despite you coming to the same conclusion as I and many others have come to, you are falsely attributing things TO God...

Quote
You're also right that experiencing the beauty and simple message of the Quran doens't take years of study, but because that simple message stands in direct opposition to salvation through our risen Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that simple message is clearly sourced from the ruler of this world.  Again, I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

Have you ever for a second thought that perhaps Pauline teachings are not really God's teachings and contradict Jesus' teachings?

Salvation comes through obedience to God, obedience to the messengers and through good works. Jesus himself said you will enter the kingdom of God through good works and be condemned to hell otherwise.

The church has twisted the message of Jesus and enforced the personal teachings of Paul.

Do you realize what illogic and lack of justice it is to say that a man who supposedly was God, commited suicide and all this to 'save' humanity'. There is no need for human sacrifice or God to 'sacrifice himself' amongst other beliefs to 'save' anybody.

Islam teaches differently yes, that we are saved by faith in God, by mercy of God and by our good works. Quite similar to what Jesus himself preached not what paul or the church preached.

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Christians are trinitarian monotheists believing in one God, but again I know I will never ever convince you of that and I accept that now.

But that is an oxymoron. You cannot convince me of it because I know Jesus didn't teach it. As I said I studied Christianity in depth and what I found was man made law and man made teachings not Jesus' teachings or God's teachings or law.

As one atheist once told me, christianity is a religion of convenience. Where you shape God and shape what is Godly as you see fit. Hence everyone's christianity is different and everyone's understanding of God and Jesus is different.

Quote
You're also right that God doesn't lie or contradict himself, but the ruler of this world moves about like a roaring lion looking to devour his prey.  He is the ultimate master of deception that has convinced multitudes that Jesus is not the way, that he was not resurrected, that he is not God, that it's about works and that salvation through Christ is not needed.  Again, I know I will never convince you that this is the case and I accept that now.

I think you misunderstand the true concept of 'salvation' and instead like many christians preach to the emotional masses that you just have to 'accept' Jesus in your heart and you are 'saved'. It is a bullet riddled statement bro...

It gets people emotionally hooked but is far from reality.

It's an unjust and unreal concept.

Jesus thought that everyone will be judged, on the earth he said I judge thee when speaking to those around him as a messenger as all messengers dictated what is right and wrong.

He thought that there is a heaven for those that succeed and a hell for those that are condemned and evil. He talked of good works. He talked of embracing and fulifilling God's law, he thought God's law.

The reality is, if paul did not exist, we muslims are 100% behind Jesus as we in fact are. There is nothing contradictory to Jesus' teachings to Islam. In fact we are closer to Jesus in his teachings than the church and paul are to Jesus.

After all what is the definition of Muslim and Islam? One who submits his will to God and submission to the will of God. What did Jesus repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat over and over again about himself? The exact same statement. Not my will but your will.
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bigbobs
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« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2012, 07:14:49 PM »

Jesus did affirm he was God and proclaimed it, but I will never convince you of that and I accept that now.  

You may have convinced us of it if there was a clear scriptural indication of this, but since there is no such existence you're right you will never convince us simply with your interpretations of scripture which state otherwise.



I know you claim to be a former Christian, but have no concept of the Holy Spirit and deny it completely.  

I'm not sure if you meant that you have doubt that Ahmed may not be a former Christian or not, but if it helps at all I can verify that I've met Ahmed recently and can confirm what he's saying is true.  He is white, not like your typical born-Muslim and with no accent either.  Very friendly guy in person too Smiley  I know this is all online stuff to you so it doesn't offend me if you don't believe us, but I'm just sharing my word for what it's worth.
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bigbobs
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Islam, Nasser and Corvettes.


« Reply #73 on: November 14, 2012, 07:15:41 PM »

Well, there seems to be a problem with the quran. There are people who read it and take from it some very bad things. They don't agree with you on what some of the contents mean. They would/will die defending their version, believing it is from god. So you don't get off that easily.    

There is no problem with the Quran, even if some people "take from it very bad things."  In these instances it's those "some people" who have a problem but not the religion itself.
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« Reply #74 on: November 14, 2012, 07:27:25 PM »

Fellas, I'm done....dust from my feet.  
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