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Author Topic: if capitalism worked, everyone should be rich by now  (Read 9142 times)
galeniko
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« on: November 07, 2012, 03:07:58 AM »

t
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Bad Boy Dazza
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« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2012, 03:14:20 AM »

think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

People who work hard and save do have money put aside.   So it does work for them.  Do you have a job?  What do you do?

Third world?  WTF?  These people follow a different set of rules.
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« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2012, 03:27:50 AM »

i dont think pl on minimum wage put anything aside.

in the uk, 50% of the employed people need a govt top up.

yes i do have a job, and im in switzerland, we follow different rules here,its the land where all the tax evaded money from other nations goes, ofc we have it good here

Many people spend their saving in todays world - on expensive toys.  Most of your part of Europe does OK so I don't think tax evaded money is the explanation.
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bigmc
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« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 03:29:23 AM »

i dont think pl on minimum wage put anything aside.

in the uk, 50% of the employed people need a govt top up.

yes i do have a job, and im in switzerland, we follow different rules here,its the land where all the tax evaded money from other nations goes, ofc we have it good here

what are the upsides and down sides compared to living in the UK
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 03:30:15 AM »

because not every one bothers to improve them selves so they work bad jobs or not at all and waste everything on crap stuff, most people are just lazy too save up. Ofcouse some people just have it real rough, but i know people who are getting 1500 a week and have less value in a bank than me, all of their money goes on useless shit and it is unbelievabe how fast money gets wasted when you buy the most expensive stuff you dont need
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Bindare_Dundat
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 03:33:50 AM »

think about it, a lifetime of working should generate enough income to put some spare money aside.

then you die and the children inherit whats left.

get the idea?

everyone should have plenty of money by now, how comes it isnt so?

its not the case in the western world, and it certainly is not the case in the so called shitholes aka 3rd world countries.

the majority of people are permanently broke-kint and live from paycheck to paycheck.

so, where is the problem?

Are you serious?
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Stark
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2012, 03:44:45 AM »

What is Capitalism?

The word capitalism is now quite commonly used to describe the social system in which we now live. It is also often assumed that it has existed, if not forever, then for most of human history. In fact, capitalism is a relatively new social system.1

But what exactly does 'capitalism' mean?
Class division

Capitalism is the social system which now exists in all countries of the world. Under this system, the means for producing and distributing goods (the land, factories, technology, transport system etc) are owned by a small minority of people. We refer to this group of people as the capitalist class. The majority of people must sell their ability to work in return for a wage or salary (who we refer to as the working class.)

The working class are paid to produce goods and services which are then sold for a profit. The profit is gained by the capitalist class because they can make more money selling what we have produced than we cost to buy on the labour market. In this sense, the working class are exploited by the capitalist class. The capitalists live off the profits they obtain from exploiting the working class whilst reinvesting some of their profits for the further accumulation of wealth.

This is what we mean when we say there are two classes in society. It is a claim based upon simple facts about the society we live in today. This class division is the essential feature of capitalism. It may be popular to talk (usually vaguely) about various other 'classes' existing such as the 'middle class', but it is the two classes defined here that are the key to understanding capitalism.

It may not be exactly clear which class some relatively wealthy people are in. But there is no ambiguity about the status of the vast majority of the world's population. Members of the capitalist class certainly know who they are. And most members of the working class know that they need to work for a wage or salary in order to earn a living (or are dependent upon somebody who does, or depend on state benefits.)
The profit motive

In capitalism, the motive for producing goods and services is to sell them for a profit, not to satisfy people's needs. The products of capitalist production have to find a buyer, of course, but this is only incidental to the main aim of making a profit, of ending up with more money than was originally invested. This is not a theory that we have thought up but a fact you can easily confirm for yourself by reading the financial press. Production is started not by what consumers are prepared to pay for to satisfy their needs but by what the capitalists calculate can be sold at a profit. Those goods may satisfy human needs but those needs will not be met if people do not have sufficient money.

The profit motive is not just the result of greed on behalf of individual capitalists. They do not have a choice about it. The need to make a profit is imposed on capitalists as a condition for not losing their investments and their position as capitalists. Competition with other capitalists forces them to reinvest as much of their profits as they can afford to keep their means and methods of production up to date.

As you will see, we hold that it is the class division and profit motive of capitalism that is at the root of most of the world's problems today, from starvation to war, to alienation and crime. Every aspect of our lives is subordinated to the worst excesses of the drive to make profit. In capitalist society, our real needs will only ever come a poor second to the requirements of profit.
Capitalism = free market?

It is widely assumed that capitalism means a free market economy. But it is possible to have capitalism without a free market. The systems that existed in the U.S.S.R and exist in China and Cuba demonstrate this. These class-divided societies are widely called 'socialist'. A cursory glance at what in fact existed there reveals that these countries were simply 'state capitalist'. In supposedly 'socialist' Russia, for example, there still existed wage slavery, commodity production, buying, selling and exchange, with production only taking place when it was viable to do so. 'Socialist' Russia continued to trade according to the dictates of international capital and, like every other capitalist, state, was prepared to go to war to defend its economic interests. The role of the Soviet state became simply to act as the functionary of capital in the exploitation of wage labour, setting targets for production and largely controlling what could or could not be produced. We therefore feel justified in asserting that such countries had nothing to do with socialism as we define it. In fact, socialism as we define it could not exist in one country alone—like capitalism it must be a global system of society.

It is also possible (at least in theory) to have a free market economy that is not capitalist. Such a 'market economy' would involve farmers, artisans and shopkeepers each producing a particular product that they would exchange via the medium of money. There would be no profit-making and no class division—just independent producers exchanging goods for their mutual benefit. But it is doubtful whether such an economy has ever existed. The nearest that may have come to it would have been in some of the early colonial settlements in North America. Some Greens wish to see a return to this kind of economy. We do not think that it is a viable alternative for modern society. Such a system would almost inevitability lead to capital accumulation and profit making—the definitive features of capitalism.2
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doison
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« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 03:49:39 AM »

To many parts of the world everyone in America IS rich, fuckface.
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rocket
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« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2012, 03:51:10 AM »

yes of course.

overall, everything is less expensive while wages are higher.

i mean the average jobs wages.

ppl here who are on the dole get more than a mainimum wage receptionist in the uk.

by everything cheaper i mean:

housing

food

gasoline

travelling

taxes



You are terribly naive. 

Here is how it works

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

Average wage goes up -> prices go up.

The only time the average are "rich" is when they are exploiting other economies of a lesser scale.

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#1 Klaus fan
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« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2012, 03:52:31 AM »

Great paradox of capitalism is that if everyone had the same opportunities and potential everyone would have exactly the same amount of wealth.
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doison
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« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2012, 03:55:04 AM »

i think you should update your view of the world

I'm in India for a conference right now.  I'll remind everyone how poor we are over in 'Merica.
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« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2012, 03:57:49 AM »

ok, how comes,then, that the prices in uk are more expensive on everything compared to switerland, while the wages are lower?

Because the UK, like the USA, is going down the shitter.
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rocket
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2012, 04:00:23 AM »

ok, how comes,then, that the prices in uk are more expensive on everything compared to switerland, while the wages are lower?

That doesn't make everybody rich - that makes most people poor and shit, capitalism has that covered Smiley

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rocket
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« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2012, 04:01:46 AM »

But to answer your question - if prices go up and people still buy the products, wages do not have to rise.

If wages go up, prices WILL go up.  If prices go up, wages don't necessarily go up.  That's what makes capitalism the thunderdome.
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doison
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« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2012, 04:04:48 AM »

yeah, while youre there, tell them about the prosperous economy in the bronx and similiar places


I'm waiting in line to shit through a hole in the floor into a hand dug ditch underneath.  The poor convection abilities of "old fashioned" radiator heating systems of many Bronx apartments will be a good conversation starter.
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« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2012, 04:17:29 AM »


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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2012, 04:26:51 AM »

i'm not sure what you are getting at here?
surely switzerland is a near perfect model of capitalism working...

as you said you have lower taxation than most of the rest of the western world and a nearly exclusive private sector economy.

you keep saying how mush better you have things in switzerland than the UK but you are a more capitalist country than the uk, as you said a high % of those that are even working in the UK still get state top ups.


are you arguing for or against capitalism here?

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« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2012, 04:29:43 AM »

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxEyKi1tL-k" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxEyKi1tL-k</a>
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WOOO
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« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2012, 04:33:05 AM »

capitalism is horseshit...

by the time you learn grade 3 math you should understand that the financial 'underpinnings' of the market are invented values

moderate socialism is a realistic short-term alternative but the only way that a global village of 7+ billion will survive in the future is through a fully cooperative economy

greed and the acquisition of wealth are irrelevant

find someone to love, have kids and live a happy life
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deceiver
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« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2012, 04:34:16 AM »

capitalism is horseshit...

by the time you learn grade 3 math you should understand that the financial 'underpinnings' of the market are invented values

moderate socialism is a realistic short-term alternative but the only way that a global village of 7+ billion will survive in the future is through a fully cooperative economy

greed and the acquisition of wealth are irrelevant

find someone to love, have kids and live a happy life

ahahahahaahaha

You should lecture economy on a fucking university my friend, yet another self-taught economic "genius".
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_bruce_
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« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2012, 06:20:53 AM »

The fun, in a very general way, is only possible if there are many who fail and a few who win. A system that works on success will always make it extra sweet if you're among the top percentage.
What can be disheartening in such matters is that being top is not entirely defined by e.g. skill, will aka qualification but very often by birth, connections and luck because most people are too weak to make room for the stronger ones - ego.
This is extremely apparent in the working environment where having to put up with idiots, relative to yourself, can become a full time job.

No hands on system is intended to really work so that the single individual be able to attain freedom - that would defy the state/government/interest.
The crucial factor in how sour you want things to get is up to the rulers - a system managed by honest people can be good in any form for the common citizen.
We're headed into a neo feudalistic direction where many will wake up when their only possession is a mobile and a debt card.




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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2012, 06:45:25 AM »

Not everybody works as hard, or has the same level of intelligence. That's over simplifying it, but it's true.
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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2012, 08:16:42 AM »

greed and the acquisition of wealth are irrelevant
Fucking lol. You will never, ever eliminate the greedy. People that think like you will always be fucked over by others in a quest for money and power. Always have, always will. It's human nature. And no one can change that, not me, not a government, nor your misguided sense of ideals.
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Shockwave
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2012, 08:19:06 AM »

Not everybody works as hard, or has the same level of intelligence. That's over simplifying it, but it's true.
Bam.
Everyone is not equal, believe it or not. Some work hard, are more genetically gifted, or both, and therefore will make a better living situation for themselves. Its not unfair, its called life.
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2012, 08:21:41 AM »

Black people work just as hard as white people thus we should be a communist country
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