Unions. Pro or Con.

[War-Horse]

Before unions, employers would say we need someone to work 8 hrs a day....as time went on 10hrs a day....then 12hr. If you couldnt do it then there are 10 guys that would.
Then the employer say Hey we need you to take a paycut to increase our profits...if you dont...then someone else will.  This went on and on and on. Pretty soon we had children working coal mines 14hrs a day for minimum wages.
If a guy stood up alone he lost his job, so he said lets all stand up together.

The problem still exists.  I will do the job for 25 an hour. My neighbor will take my job for 12 an hour. The guy down the street will take 6 an hour.  Another guy will work for a loaf of bread to feed his family for the day.  Its a race to the bottom!

Do you see how great it is to own a business?  Unregulated by conscience or ethics.

Now lets consider the union worker who is resented by people because he has a middleclass income.  50-80k a year.  This guy spends ALL HE MAKES AND IT POURS INTO THE LOCAL ECONOMY. This helps all business around him.

What about the CEO?  He takes his millions a year and hides into tax sheltered accounts and hideaways....This takes the money out of circulation and hurts the economy.

See I dont mind if workers are paid well....because we get it back.  And also most companies around the union try to stay competitive in that area.  Without unions at all.......NO STANDARDS WOULD BE EXPECTED IN A LIVING WAGE JOB.

Now is there corruptness in the union? Yes. But the corporate corruptness has a greater effect on the economy.

[nzmusclemonster]

Unions can have a bad name, but I know several companies that will only hire union workers.

[tu_holmes]

They were very good before the government had oversight into employee workings... Mostly bad these days.

Some are helpful... some just rob from their union brethren to give money and perks to the people up top.

[War-Horse]

But can you see how HAPPY CEO'S would be if they werent holding to some standard of living?  They would be pitting us against eachother to see who would work the most hours for the least money. Theirs always someone more desperate than you...its crazy.

[Irongrip400]

I do see your point, but like I said, there has to be some sort of compromise on some things.  Just like I said in an earlier thread, that Ford closed it's Norfolk Assembly Plant because the guys would not take less money.  Ford said, fuck you, and moved it's operations elsewhere.  they told people they could relocate, and paid people a severance, but they were still out of work.  All because they would not budge.  Assembly line workers came in at $17.89 and hour.  Ford wanted them to take a paycut because times got tight.  Now everybody loses.  I have 8 employees (7 that actually work, lol) and I believe that I pay them fair.  Three are on salary, and the rest are hourly.  I try to pay them what they are worth, and give them bonuses based on performance, because I can't always afford to give them raises, because I'd have to take them away in tight times.  I keep enough to pay these guys for 6 weeks, even if I had no work.  I will pay them for the Thanksgiving week, and also Christmas vacation.  they get one week paid sick time and one week paid vacation.  But, if they were part of some union, I would be broke trying to acquiesce to their demands.  I am the one who has to make sure that these guys have work on the books for weeks at a time.  I am the one who pays out, literally, hundreds of thousand of dollars in materials and equipment yearly.  they get to go home at night and only worry about their problems.  I go home and have to worry about everybodies problems.  Like I said, that's why I don't do work in union states.  I have to go tit for tat with equipment operators, one from the union and one from me.  I would have to pay fringe that only portions go to the employee.  Try to do a project up north and not hire union guys, then try and get concrete.  If you aren't on a Federal project, good luck.

[War-Horse]

I do see your point, but like I said, there has to be some sort of compromise on some things.  Just like I said in an earlier thread, that Ford closed it's Norfolk Assembly Plant because the guys would not take less money.  Ford said, fuck you, and moved it's operations elsewhere.  they told people they could relocate, and paid people a severance, but they were still out of work.  All because they would not budge.  Assembly line workers came in at $17.89 and hour.  Ford wanted them to take a paycut because times got tight.  Now everybody loses.  I have 8 employees (7 that actually work, lol) and I believe that I pay them fair.  Three are on salary, and the rest are hourly.  I try to pay them what they are worth, and give them bonuses based on performance, because I can't always afford to give them raises, because I'd have to take them away in tight times.  I keep enough to pay these guys for 6 weeks, even if I had no work.  I will pay them for the Thanksgiving week, and also Christmas vacation.  they get one week paid sick time and one week paid vacation.  But, if they were part of some union, I would be broke trying to acquiesce to their demands.  I am the one who has to make sure that these guys have work on the books for weeks at a time.  I am the one who pays out, literally, hundreds of thousand of dollars in materials and equipment yearly.  they get to go home at night and only worry about their problems.  I go home and have to worry about everybodies problems.  Like I said, that's why I don't do work in union states.  I have to go tit for tat with equipment operators, one from the union and one from me.  I would have to pay fringe that only portions go to the employee.  Try to do a project up north and not hire union guys, then try and get concrete.  If you aren't on a Federal project, good luck.

You are a responsible business owner. Good job
Mostly the bigger companies that go corrupt tho...more pressure and dont have to be friends or see the faces of employees.
I totally agree about unions holding a comp hostage...not right and they pay a hefty price for it.
I dont agree that a company should just load up the truck and move to india tho.....should be a hefty penalty in the national interest.

[godeep]

The role of the unions still has a place but the level of corruption and entitlement spoils the whole show.

One of my suppliers had a plant in Missouri and they happened to be over capacity with orders (while the rest of us were begging for them just to keep running) and the union workers decided to go on strike because of too much overtime. The plant/company lost orders and customers due to them stopping the product flow. The company shortly afterwards had to decide which plants to close permanently due to financial constraints and all of the other facilities were underperformers...except for the same plant in Missouri.

Small town, few jobs and these mf'ers decided they were too gd entitled to support the company in one of the few busy periods in an otherwise lackluster business season. It was indeed going to be temporary; the orders were finite and tied to distinct industries' peak periods.

Serves them right; now they're crying wishing they had that ol' plant job back with all that OT.

Don't even get me started about the NY/NJ area; the unions' corruption there makes me fucking nauseous.

[tbombz]

In an unregulated economy the right of workers to organize and collectively bargain would the the force which worked against employer interests in order to get the compensation and working conditions to the market equilibrium. 

but i think when you have regulations thrown in the mix it makes things more complicated.

[Primemuscle]

My early experiences with a union was not good. My stepfather was a painting contractor and he was not union. In his business model he had no need for employees because he could make good money just by keeping himself in work.

When I was just a kid, which was a long time ago, my stepfather was harassed by "union thugs" who would come onto his job site and tell him he couldn't use the paint brush he used because it was too large. They literally tried to strong arm him into joining the union. He never did.

Later, when I worked in merchandizing for a major department store, I saw first hand how underpaid employees were in non-union stores as opposed to those in the retail clerks union. I came to realize that some unions actually play an important role on behalf of workers.

Eventually, I left that line of work and went to work in education where I joined a union or rather an association. Although I took a salary reduction when I took that job, I gained in benefits which evened things out some. After a couple of years, I became active in the association by becoming a rep for my fellow employees where I worked.

Unfortunately, some of these employees got into difficulties with our employer. At times they were falsely accused and other times not. I was there to insure that the conditions of "just cause" were met if they were terminated. Often, I was able to negotiate a second chance agreement with our employer if the infraction was not too egregious. I also bargained several contracts over the years with our employer. Without the assistance of the associations paid staff and expertise, these negotiations would have turned out very differently.

My point is that there are good unions and some which have experienced bad practices in the past. To suggest that all unions are just out to grab money for members pay and do nothing in for them in return is simply not true. I believe most unions do more good then harm.

[POB]

Before unions, employers would say we need someone to work 8 hrs a day....as time went on 10hrs a day....then 12hr. If you couldnt do it then there are 10 guys that would.
Then the employer say Hey we need you to take a paycut to increase our profits...if you dont...then someone else will.  This went on and on and on. Pretty soon we had children working coal mines 14hrs a day for minimum wages.
If a guy stood up alone he lost his job, so he said lets all stand up together.

The problem still exists.  I will do the job for 25 an hour. My neighbor will take my job for 12 an hour. The guy down the street will take 6 an hour.  Another guy will work for a loaf of bread to feed his family for the day.  Its a race to the bottom!

Do you see how great it is to own a business?  Unregulated by conscience or ethics.

Now lets consider the union worker who is resented by people because he has a middleclass income.  50-80k a year.  This guy spends ALL HE MAKES AND IT POURS INTO THE LOCAL ECONOMY. This helps all business around him.

What about the CEO?  He takes his millions a year and hides into tax sheltered accounts and hideaways....This takes the money out of circulation and hurts the economy.

See I dont mind if workers are paid well....because we get it back.  And also most companies around the union try to stay competitive in that area.  Without unions at all.......NO STANDARDS WOULD BE EXPECTED IN A LIVING WAGE JOB.

Now is there corruptness in the union? Yes. But the corporate corruptness has a greater effect on the economy.

This is a great post. I've posted this before and I'll post it again. Unions make sure employees have a safe working environment and fair pay. All other jobs follow the union baseline in pay, if the union baseline pay goes down so does the wage for all other jobs. Breaking the union would also be the beginning of socialism in this country, there would be a few rich people and a ton of broke people. The economy would be way worse than it is now. I can understand if you own a company not wanting a union it would mean you have to actually share some of your profits and not take advantage of people, but if you pull a pay check you'd be an absolute fool to not want to be in a union...

[godeep]

I also loathe the teachers' unions although my wife is a member. This is one of those cliched, double-edged blades for me. She has benefited personally from the protection that it provides (had an unsafe situation that the district would not have addressed if not for the union) but at the same time they make it damn near impossible to fire a truly shitty teacher that provides a disservice to our children. They'll move the losers (they call them 'trader trash' and interchange the losers between schools) back and forth but almost never fire them. In the real world these mf'ers would be out on their lazy, incompetent asses.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the unions still have a purpose but the entitlement and corruption spoils it.

[outby43]

Unions were great when a scab would never dare cross the picket line or he would get busted up.  Now there is no fear.  I remember the grocery store workers were on strike and I refused to shop at those locations.  Didn't stop a lot of people from going there though.  The thing that really sucked was the non union places jacked up there prices.  Unions are great for job preservation if a guy is being harassed by the management.  Then again my dad was in a union for years, paying the dues, was on strike for a year, guys couldn't hold out and left the picket line.  Union couldn't do shit for them.

[240 is Back]

I'd say cut about HALF of the union power, influence and $ for ten years.

Then re-evaluate.  Cut it in half again if needed.  They serve a purpose, but they get greedy too!

[Primemuscle]

I also loathe the teachers' unions although my wife is a member. This is one of those cliched, double-edged blades for me. She has benefited personally from the protection that it provides (had an unsafe situation that the district would not have addressed if not for the union) but at the same time they make it damn near impossible to fire a truly shitty teacher that provides a disservice to our children. They'll move the losers (they call them 'trader trash' and interchange the losers between schools) back and forth but almost never fire them. In the real world these mf'ers would be out on their lazy, incompetent asses.

As I said in an earlier post, I think the unions still have a purpose but the entitlement and corruption spoils it.

Sometimes it is not the union that saves the jobs of bad employees, it is lazy and ineffectual supervisors. I have seen this first hand when I was a union rep. Often notoriously longtime poor performing employees would have a file full of good performance appraisals by their supervisor(s) who were just too lazy or too weak to give them an honest review of their work. There is a process that should be followed when an employee's performance is poor that is designed to help them improve. When this process isn't employed and there is no documentation that the employee was not performing up to the job requirements, it becomes really difficult to terminate them unless they do something really outlandish or illegal. That is part of the process of "just cause."

With out just cause, an employer can fire an employee if they don't like the way they wear their hair or what union folk like to term "just cuz" I don't like you.

[OzmO]

Both.

The only worse thing than unions is not having them.

[POB]

Both.

The only worse thing than unions is not having them.

I'm going to steal this line from you, it's great,,haha

[War-Horse]

Good posts in this thread.    Its true that it can be frustrating sometimes but I try to imagine what would happen if unions actually died off.

Then the situation that is the first post would arise....neighbor against neighbor for a loaf of bread.  Tbombz is incorrect in assumeing natural checks and balances......history has already proved that.

The golden rule.  (He that has the gold rules) The boss would find someone to do it for free.  And we would be a 3rd world country quickly.

Race to the bottom without some standards or regulations.

[tonymctones]

Good posts in this thread.    Its true that it can be frustrating sometimes but I try to imagine what would happen if unions actually died off.

Then the situation that is the first post would arise....neighbor against neighbor for a loaf of bread.  Tbombz is incorrect in assumeing natural checks and balances......history has already proved that.

The golden rule.  (He that has the gold rules) The boss would find someone to do it for free.  And we would be a 3rd world country quickly.

Race to the bottom without some standards or regulations.

unions arent needed for standards and regulations.

youre theory on "race to the bottom" doesnt hold water.

[POB]

unions arent needed for standards and regulations.

youre theory on "race to the bottom" doesnt hold water.

Your wrong, your agreeing with tbomz that should be a clue...

[War-Horse]

unions arent needed for standards and regulations.

youre theory on "race to the bottom" doesnt hold water.

You cant learn from history Tony    It would be the wild west. As a business owner...I know.

[tonymctones]

Your wrong, your agreeing with tbomz that should be a clue...

You cant learn from history Tony    It would be the wild west. As a business owner...I know.

so both of you are saying that legislation from the govt wouldnt do the same thing?

why are their businesses/industries that dont employee unions that arent having their employees work for a loaf of bread?

[OzmO]

so both of you are saying that legislation from the govt wouldnt do the same thing?

why are their businesses/industries that dont employee unions that arent having their employees work for a loaf of bread?

Like Affirmative Action?

What happens when companies get too big, and influence legislation via campaign funding?

A world without Unions is far worse.  Unions have gotten too powerful and have abused things in many ways.  But don't think for one second Companies  won't do any and everything to make as much as possible.  

[tonymctones]

What happens when companies get too big, and influence legislation via campaign funding?

A world without Unions is far worse.  Unions have gotten too powerful and have abused things in many ways.  But don't think for one second Companies  won't do any and everything to make as much as possible.   

can be played both ways there Oz, what happens when unions do it...OH WAIT we just have to look at current politicians and legislation...

[War-Horse]

unions are a tough one for me... in the first 6 months after university i worked in the film industry as a grip... i was glad to become a union member...

today though as a contact center director within a very reputable company i work to prevent my employees from thinking about joining a union... they kill productivity in a call center

Good point.

[OzmO]

Like Affirmative Action?

What happens when companies get too big, and influence legislation via campaign funding?

A world without Unions is far worse.  Unions have gotten too powerful and have abused things in many ways.  But don't think for one second Companies  won't do any and everything to make as much as possible.  

can be played both ways there Oz, what happens when unions do it...OH WAIT we just have to look at current politicians and legislation...

It would be hard to enact legislation to cover each situation.

Also, that means more government regulation, something we can do with out.