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Author Topic: Unions. Pro or Con.  (Read 1068 times)
War-Horse
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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 06:13:48 PM »

can be played both ways there Oz, what happens when unions do it...OH WAIT we just have to look at current politicians and legislation...




But this country will never try to "Bust" legislators. They can be voted out tho.
But unions are having war waged on them by the right wing ....trying to paint them as the devil.
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tonymctones
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2012, 06:15:56 PM »

It would be hard to enact legislation to cover each situation.

Also, that means more government regulation, something we can do with out.
LOL unions are govt regulations, its the same thing just one is a blanket legislation and one isnt.

and you cant go back and revise posts and then expect me to know...Wink

yea like affirmative action, we already have legislation in place that prevents ppl from being discriminated against.

please tell me how telling ppl that focusing on race/sex/religion is wrong by forcing them to focus on race/sex/religion etc is the answer?

so racism is wrong and to counter it we are going to be racists? how the fuck that does that make sense?
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War-Horse
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« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2012, 06:16:51 PM »

There not perfect but we'd sink FAST if they were gone.   The boss would screw you in a heartbeat to improve profits Tony.....gauranteed
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War-Horse
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« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2012, 06:20:03 PM »

LOL unions are govt regulations, its the same thing just one is a blanket legislation and one isnt.

and you cant go back and revise posts and then expect me to know...Wink

yea like affirmative action, we already have legislation in place that prevents ppl from being discriminated against.

please tell me how telling ppl that focusing on race/sex/religion is wrong by forcing them to focus on race/sex/religion etc is the answer?

so racism is wrong and to counter it we are going to be racists? how the fuck that does that make sense?


I notice you like to combine subjects....stick to the theme here tony.   You were saying we could legislate new laws instead of having unions.........good lord your asking for bigger government mr republican.
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OzmO
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« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2012, 06:22:37 PM »

LOL unions are govt regulations, its the same thing just one is a blanket legislation and one isnt.

and you cant go back and revise posts and then expect me to know...Wink

yea like affirmative action, we already have legislation in place that prevents ppl from being discriminated against.



I disagree.  AA is a good example of blanket regulation that doesn't work in all circumstances.

Unions (when not abused) provide a relative exact balance.

Quote
please tell me how telling ppl that focusing on race/sex/religion is wrong by forcing them to focus on race/sex/religion etc is the answer?

so racism is wrong and to counter it we are going to be racists? how the fuck that does that make sense?

really don't know what you are assuming i meant here.  but it wasn't that.
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polychronopolous
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« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2012, 06:24:03 PM »

Even with all it's warts I would have to say Walmart is somewhat better for the economy than worse and I would say the unions are a little better for the country than worse.
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tonymctones
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« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2012, 06:28:00 PM »


I notice you like to combine subjects....stick to the theme here tony.   You were saying we could legislate new laws instead of having unions.........good lord your asking for bigger government mr republican.
lol go back and re-read brain child I didnt combine topics i was responding to a post that did.
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2012, 06:35:37 PM »

so both of you are saying that legislation from the govt wouldnt do the same thing?

why are their businesses/industries that dont employee unions that arent having their employees work for a loaf of bread?

In an atmosphere where a good percentage of the populace is championing less government involvement, I don't think the timing is ideal for legislation with additional employer dictates. However, you are right that legislation could make unions unnecessary,  although this hasn't proved to be the case in other more socialized countries, such as Germany, where unions remain strong despite very generous government regulated employee benefits. A month's vacation every year from the onset is the norm in Germany. Furthermore, German employers must provide employees health care insurance.

Still, there is current U.S. legislation at both the federal and state level which dictate certain mandates to employers, such as minimum wage, the legal age for employment, the number of regular hours of work and some overtime mandates for hourly employees. There is also mandated leaves, such as is dictated in the Family Medical Leave Act. Additionally, there are laws governing other workplace conditions, such as discrimination. Anyone who has experience with the Bureau of Labor and Industries, has a pretty good idea of how difficult enforcement of these laws can be and how frequently they are violated by some employers, such as Walmart.

Walmart has a history of intimidating employees so they won't complain about working conditions. Lately however, Walmart employees seem to have had enough.

Historically, unions helped set some of the standards employers are mandated to follow today. With less government, who enforce violations of these laws? Who would represent an employee who is dismissed without Just Cause, (which is not currently law).
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War-Horse
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« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2012, 06:36:20 PM »

Tony and coach must ride the short bus together.  Its like talking to wallpaper. Undecided
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2012, 06:38:22 PM »

Even with all it's warts I would have to say Walmart is somewhat better for the economy than worse and I would say the unions are a little better for the country than worse.

Slave labor might be good for the economy too, but I wouldn't recommend it.
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2012, 06:42:33 PM »

Tony and coach must ride the short bus together.  Its like talking to wallpaper. Undecided

I am not sure this is a fair assessment of either Tony or Coach.

We form opinions based on our own personal experiences, which are often just as varied as our opinions can be. It is all a matter of perspective. I think I pointed that out when I wrote about the variety of work experiences I've had and how they influenced my feelings about unions.
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OzmO
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« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2012, 06:46:31 PM »

Tony and coach must ride the short bus together.  Its like talking to wallpaper. Undecided

Coach maybe (because i am not all that convinced he isn't just playing the tool role), but not Tony
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War-Horse
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« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2012, 06:50:25 PM »

Coach maybe (because i am not all that convinced he isn't just playing the tool role), but not Tony


Most people seem to have comprehension skills.  Tony couldnt find a rhino in a china shop.
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« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2012, 07:07:25 PM »

In an atmosphere where a good percentage of the populace is championing less government involvement, I don't think the timing is ideal for legislation with additional employer dictates. However, you are right that legislation could make unions unnecessary,  although this hasn't proved to be the case in other more socialized countries, such as Germany, where unions remain strong despite very generous government regulated employee benefits. A month's vacation every year from the onset is the norm in Germany. Furthermore, German employers must provide employees health care insurance.

Still, there is current U.S. legislation at both the federal and state level which dictate certain mandates to employers, such as minimum wage, the legal age for employment, the number of regular hours of work and some overtime mandates for hourly employees. There is also mandated leaves, such as is dictated in the Family Medical Leave Act. Additionally, there are laws governing other workplace conditions, such as discrimination. Anyone who has experience with the Bureau of Labor and Industries, has a pretty good idea of how difficult enforcement of these laws can be and how frequently they are violated by some employers, such as Walmart.

Walmart has a history of intimidating employees so they won't complain about working conditions. Lately however, Walmart employees seem to have had enough.

Historically, unions helped set some of the standards employers are mandated to follow today. With less government, who enforce violations of these laws? Who would represent an employee who is dismissed without Just Cause, (which is not currently law).

I for one would very much like the German model.
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JBGRAY
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« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2012, 07:56:23 PM »

I know a former construction company CEO(the recession destroyed him and he drives a 10 year old Buick and lives in a 2 bedroom apartment...he's 80 and is happy enough) who told me an interesting story one day.  His company usually built gas stations, office buildings, and some other commercial buildings.  He stated that from his observations that the non-union labor, concentrated mostly in the Heartland(Nebraska, Missouri, Iowa, etc..), in comparison to the unionized labor in New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania, was far, far superior in overall worksmanship as well as being a lot cheaper.

I guess you can compare that the non-unionized labor in the US that cranks out Toyotas, BMWs, and Hondas have far better quality than the dogshit that Ford, GM, and Chrysler puts out with their stupidly grossly overinflated Union pay and benefits packages.

Unions...a resounding Con.
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OzmO
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« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2012, 08:35:30 PM »

I know a former construction company CEO(the recession destroyed him and he drives a 10 year old Buick and lives in a 2 bedroom apartment...he's 80 and is happy enough) who told me an interesting story one day.  His company usually built gas stations, office buildings, and some other commercial buildings.  He stated that from his observations that the non-union labor, concentrated mostly in the Heartland(Nebraska, Missouri, Iowa, etc..), in comparison to the unionized labor in New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania, was far, far superior in overall worksmanship as well as being a lot cheaper.

I guess you can compare that the non-unionized labor in the US that cranks out Toyotas, BMWs, and Hondas have far better quality than the dogshit that Ford, GM, and Chrysler puts out with their stupidly grossly overinflated Union pay and benefits packages.

Unions...a resounding Con.

I think your theory might be suffering from "incorrect association"

If i understand your conclusions right:

1.  Products with non unionized labor such as Toyotas, BMW's and Hondas are better
2.  Product made with unionized labor such as GM, Dodge, Ford etc are not as good

Therefore unionized products are of poorer quality.

However, there are many other things that factor into the overall quality of a product for example in cars:

-  The quality of parts and materials used to keep the costs at  a specific level to produce the product and price competitively in a particular market
-  The overall retail cost compared to the profit margin considering the cost of materials and workmanship
-  The decision made by the company execs to produce a much inferior product (workmanship and materials) knowing that there will always be a market for cheaper American cars compared to more expensive imports
-  The decision by execs to use cheaper poor quality parts to increase profit

Many times whats happens is, execs tell engineers to make a product that cost "x" to manufacture and that anything over that is unexceptionable.  

To simply say union workers produce inferior products is a false because too many other things factor into how a product is produce.

I agree UAW does not benefit the industry as it should.  But Unions in principle are necessary, without them workers fall prey to an employment monopoly.

Also, there are many companies that don't have Unions that work just fine as they treat their workers well for fear of unionization.  
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tbombz
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« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2012, 10:50:18 PM »

Good posts in this thread.  Cool  Its true that it can be frustrating sometimes but I try to imagine what would happen if unions actually died off.

Then the situation that is the first post would arise....neighbor against neighbor for a loaf of bread.  Tbombz is incorrect in assumeing natural checks and balances......history has already proved that.

The golden rule.  (He that has the gold rules) The boss would find someone to do it for free.  And we would be a 3rd world country quickly.

Race to the bottom without some standards or regulations.


I am incorrect about what? i said that the right of workers to collectively bargain is the force which works to offset employer interests to get compensation and working conditions to market equilibrium.  thats a fact, it isnt up for debate.
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tbombz
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« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2012, 10:55:22 PM »

the way to reduce poverty and improve standard of living is to be productive and donate to charity and encourage the individuals you come in contact with to be productive and give to charity themselves.

you cant make a man worth a wage simply by legislating that no one may higher him for less than it.

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magikusar
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« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2012, 12:00:00 AM »

unions are fine

the laws forcing corps to agree ot union terms are not

buildup of capital, not unions, led to higher pay since the worker is made more productive

fedex was union free before obama and was kicking ibgger UPS ass, lower price better service, but then obama forced fedex to unionize and now who knows

remember under clinton a new unregulated free market called the internet was born, mainly from freedom of reagan era for research, and that prosperity was union free
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AbrahamG
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« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2012, 12:00:57 AM »

PRO AS ALL FUCK!!!!
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polychronopolous
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« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2012, 01:03:09 AM »

I know a former construction company CEO(the recession destroyed him and he drives a 10 year old Buick and lives in a 2 bedroom apartment...he's 80 and is happy enough) who told me an interesting story one day.  His company usually built gas stations, office buildings, and some other commercial buildings.  He stated that from his observations that the non-union labor, concentrated mostly in the Heartland(Nebraska, Missouri, Iowa, etc..), in comparison to the unionized labor in New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania, was far, far superior in overall worksmanship as well as being a lot cheaper.

I guess you can compare that the non-unionized labor in the US that cranks out Toyotas, BMWs, and Hondas have far better quality than the dogshit that Ford, GM, and Chrysler puts out with their stupidly grossly overinflated Union pay and benefits packages.

Unions...a resounding Con.

I find that extremely hard to believe.
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Primemuscle
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« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2012, 01:17:22 AM »

In 2010 BMW factory workers in Greer S.C. were making $15 an hour about half of what the typical German autoworker makes.

Quote
At GM and Chrysler, new hires make $14 an hour, or half the amount that existing workers take home. Likewise, at the BMW plant, which is not unionized, new workers earn a little more than half of what those hired earlier make. Some still seemed stunned by their change of circumstances. But they are almost uniformly grateful for the opportunity.

BMW declined to say what their factory workers in Germany make, explaining in part that comparisons are difficult to make because of benefits packages and differing job categories. The International Labour Organization has pegged hourly manufacturing wages in Germany at nearly 24 euros, or more than $33.

Moreover, in a comparison of international labor costs, the German Association of the Automotive Industry reports that the cost of an auto company employee including benefits is 46 euros hourly in Germany and 26 euros per hour in the United States.


Read more: The Herald-Sun - BMW finding skilled workers for less at S C plant: http://www.heraldsun.com/view/full_story/10116468/article-BMW-finding-skilled-workers-for-less-at-S-C--plant
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magikusar
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« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2012, 03:14:06 PM »

just end any regulations and laws making individuals or corps obey unions or not build better mousetrap

atomic pwoer and electric trains with 0 unions for example be solution to ending all wars in middle east for oil
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OzmO
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« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2012, 03:20:59 PM »

just end any regulations and laws making individuals or corps obey unions or not build better mousetrap

atomic pwoer and electric trains with 0 unions for example be solution to ending all wars in middle east for oil

Good luck with that as the EPA preys on peoples ignorant fear
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magikusar
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« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2012, 03:49:19 PM »

There not perfect but we'd sink FAST if they were gone.   The boss would screw you in a heartbeat to improve profits Tony.....gauranteed

not true

boss pays you for better productivity and is glad to have someone shows up on time and works hard

government laws forcing him to not fire slackers hurt everyone with more expensive goods and crappy work environment

not to mention lawyers have feast, the blood suckers
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