Author Topic: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?  (Read 19647 times)

Coach is Back!

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2012, 02:45:59 PM »
I did not call you a fucking idiot, and I have about 3 gigs of pdf books about this, again, I aint starting a citation war because I already know that this old broscience rep range thing is outdated, reason why all serious contemporary strength trainers DONT follow it, alas, you are not a serious strength trainer and are only known on getbig, of which half thinks youre a dumb fuck.


Also, higher rep ranges basically means more glucose (a higher metabolization and accretion rate) inside a given cell, not higher rates of protein synthesis on the muscle fiber, that is all it matters for in terms of energy.  You fail at taining, once again.


BTW, my apologies. It was MR. Muscles who called me a fucking idiot not you, again, sorry.

Metabolic

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2012, 02:46:44 PM »
Define "serious" strength trainer"? I'm really not interested on whether you have 3gig's or 43 gig's. of PDF books, I have my share as well, it depends on where and who you're getting info from. Again, I have no idea where you're getting your info from but this is not only being taught in every kinese program in the country but also being practiced by virtually every team S&C coach in the country. So again, define "serious strength trainer".  

From Pendlay to Bill Starr (I will mention Rippetoe in parenthesis because everybody hates this guy, i dont) to almost every other trainer who designs programs for natural trainees Ive come across, add to the list Aragon and McDonald, the only two strngth trainers who also know their shit on nutrition.

Btw, if you want real info visit Lyle´s website, you´ll learn a lot, like I did, or hell, even bette,r read his books.


dj181

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2012, 02:48:31 PM »

Have you personally been at 6% dj?
I have not but would love to try now at my older days... would be good target to work towards as I'm not getting bigger anyways.

yes i have, and i am almost there again ;)

as far as being a good target, i'd say that it's more like an OUTSTANDING target, as hardly anyone of this goddamn planet is sitting @ a legit 6%

a much more reasonable goal would be 8-9% as it's still pretty damn lean

OTHstrong

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #53 on: December 01, 2012, 02:51:38 PM »

Have you personally been at 6% dj?
I have not but would love to try now at my older days... would be good target to work towards as I'm not getting bigger anyways.
Kill it bro, why not, You want to right ? Hey you only live once bro.


Thanks, man. A lot of good info. Something to think about.  I've never used gh but I've heard it can negatively affect the joints.  Any experience with this?
If you are considering juicing for to better the joints, I say do it. If you are thinking gh for anti-aging reasons I say do it, but if your joints are hurting doing gh without the juice is suicide, having said that if you do have joint pain and want to juice and do gh I would juice for 3-4 months before starting gh so that way your joints are fresh by the time you start the gh and you should be OK

Coach is Back!

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #54 on: December 01, 2012, 02:52:44 PM »
From Pendlay to Bill Starr (I will mention Rippetoe in parenthesis because everybody hates this guy, i dont) to almost every other trainer who designs programs for natural trainees Ive come across, add to the list Aragon and McDonald, the only two strngth trainers who also know their shit on nutrition.

Btw, if you want real info visit Lyle´s website, you´ll learn a lot, like I did, or hell, even bette,r read his books.



Both are good but will also tell you that the three energy systems are dependent on rep and recovery. These rep schemes are especially dependent on natural athletes because these studies are done with...natural athletes.

Metabolic

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #55 on: December 01, 2012, 02:58:54 PM »
Both are good but will also tell you that the three energy systems are dependent on rep and recovery. These rep schemes are especially dependent on natural athletes because these studies are done with...natural athletes.

This is blatantly false, NONE of the trainers Ive cited program with your "hypertrophy rep ranges".  In fact, all of them use the basic 3x5 on compound with minimal accesory work on a higher volume range mostly for joint health.

If you dont want to concede this point ill ask anybody reading to take a look at Lyles generic bulking routine: http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1696

And

http://stronglifts.com/madcow/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm notice the periodization, it can get as low as 3 reps depending on the week, heavier, lesser volume, more intenese.


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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #56 on: December 01, 2012, 03:06:36 PM »
This is blatantly false, NONE of the trainers Ive cited program with your "hypertrophy rep ranges".  In fact, all of them use the basic 3x5 on compound with minimal accesory work on a higher volume range mostly for joint health.

If you dont want to concede this point ill ask anybody reading to take a look at Lyles generic bulking routine: http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1696

And

http://stronglifts.com/madcow/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm notice the periodization, it can get as low as 3 reps depending on the week, heavier, lesser volume, more intenese.



Look at this chart, then look at my rep schemes. What do you see that is similar?

LOADING    DELOADING AND INTENSIFICATION
                    
     Volume Phase    Option 1: Deload and Peak 3x3    OR    Option 2: Pure Deload
     Weeks 1-4    Weeks 5-9         Weeks 5-6 or Extended
                    
     Monday    Monday         Monday
Squat    5x5    3x3         3x3
Bench    1x5    1x3         3x3
Row    1x5    1x3         3x3
                    
     Wednesday    Wednesday         Wednesday or Thursday
Squat    5x5 (10-20% < than Monday)    Drop This Lift         3x3 with 70% of Monday
Deadlift    5x5    3x3         3x3
Military or Incline    5x5    3x3         3x3
Pull-ups or Chins    5x5    3x3         3x3
                    
     Friday    Friday         
Squat    1x5    1x3         
Bench    5x5    3x3         
Row    5x5    3x3         

Mine...

1-3 Power
5-8 Strength
8-12 hypertrophy
12+ muscular endurance

This varies but usually by a rep or so.

This particular thread deals with bodybuilding which in turn is isolation. In athletics, you want hypertrophy, rep schemes from 5-8 will achieve this but understand, they are suggesting bodybuilding. Starr's reps schemes are based on strength and power which today we realize that based on energy systems, ATP-CP (power) Glycolitic (strength) and Aerobic (endurance).

deceiver

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #57 on: December 01, 2012, 03:15:51 PM »
This is blatantly false, NONE of the trainers Ive cited program with your "hypertrophy rep ranges".  In fact, all of them use the basic 3x5 on compound with minimal accesory work on a higher volume range mostly for joint health.

If you dont want to concede this point ill ask anybody reading to take a look at Lyles generic bulking routine: http://forums.lylemcdonald.com/showthread.php?t=1696

And

http://stronglifts.com/madcow/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm notice the periodization, it can get as low as 3 reps depending on the week, heavier, lesser volume, more intenese.



That's exactly what I use to progress.

Everything else seems like shit to me. If I use 3x5 in basic lifts and (2-3)x(6-8) on accessory lifts with some pumping sets at the end in (1-3)x(10-15) fashion I progress.

Things that do work for me:
 - periodisation of weights, starting low and progressing slowly with weights. I can do this more agressively if I add more steroids, obviously
 - total deload phase during which I use more volume, more reps and relax with weights every time I feel the need to
 - moderate volume adjusted throghout the cycle

Things that do NOT work for me:
 - going to failure every week
 - attempts to hit PR every week
 - very high volume all the time with many reps - I simply get full but after some time I start regressing

Seems like using basic gear and low doses does not make it that much different than being natural...

BILL ANVIL

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #58 on: December 01, 2012, 03:21:22 PM »
It's this type of "thinking" would be the reason why bodybuilding-type training will never advance. More drugs, zero knowledge of training physiology.

X2. bbing knowledge is dwindling so fast, drugs are the answer now and most people don't even know how to train properly.

Palpatine Q

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #59 on: December 01, 2012, 03:26:43 PM »
X2. bbing knowledge is dwindling so fast, drugs are the answer now and most people don't even know how to train properly.

What drugs do is simplify things.  Take drugs, train hard, eat some protein..grow. If you're natty, you gotta be a lot more disciplined and analytical.

Beach Muscles

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2012, 03:54:08 PM »

Cum'on now... how would the cyclists, sprinters and so on have 'massive' legs if there was a magic number of reps which you can't exceed  ::) ::)

Because they weight train with heavy weights and use gear.
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BILL ANVIL

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2012, 04:06:03 PM »
What drugs do is simplify things.  Take drugs, train hard, eat some protein..grow. If you're natty, you gotta be a lot more disciplined and analytical.

bang on, thats a better way to put it. they really allow you more tolerance for crap ie poor diet, sloppy training methods and bad habits, things you would NEVER get away with attempting natt.. drugs just make things so easy when you already have the dicipline that comes from natty gains.

dawakaman

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2012, 04:23:40 PM »
1-3 Power
5-8 Strength
8-12 hypertrophy
12+ muscular endurance

This varies but usually by a rep or so.

Coach, do you agree that doing 8 reps in a (4.2.4.0) tempo is a bigger time under tension on your muscle being worked than a repetition done in a (2.0.1.0) rep-tempo and therefore a whole different effect on your 3 energy systems?

peace D

Beach Muscles

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2012, 04:30:04 PM »
bang on, thats a better way to put it. they really allow you more tolerance for crap ie poor diet, sloppy training methods and bad habits, things you would NEVER get away with attempting natt.. drugs just make things so easy when you already have the dicipline that comes from natty gains.

Its also nice that gear is available because then you dont have to wait so many years to reach your goals. Sure youll lose some gains post cycle but youre still a heck of alot bigger and stronger than if you stayed natural, in a given time frame. Muscle memory rules.
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BILL ANVIL

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2012, 05:38:35 PM »
Its also nice that gear is available because then you dont have to wait so many years to reach your goals. Sure youll lose some gains post cycle but youre still a heck of alot bigger and stronger than if you stayed natural, in a given time frame. Muscle memory rules.

muscle memory does rule. a natty training base is however encouraged.

Beach Muscles

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2012, 06:42:12 PM »
natty training base

Thats what highschool weight training class was for. :-D
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BILL ANVIL

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2012, 06:48:18 PM »
Thats what highschool weight training class was for. :-D

wow, well I guess you're one step ahead of everybody then and have it all figured out  8)

oldtimer1

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2012, 06:53:30 PM »
To quote Jeff Everson who was elite in  Olympic lifting, Power lifting and bodybuilding,"Until pigs fly you don't have to be a scientist to be a bodybuilder." Have you seen pictures of the authors of the exercise physiology text books used  in colleges? Most of them look like they never did a push up in their life.

 If you concentrate on such minutia as is 8 reps better than 10 or is  a 2-3 tempo better than a 4-4 tempo you are missing the big picture. A work ethic in the gym is the best indicator that you will get the most out of your individual genetics.  

Danny Padilla liked 12 reps a set and was a fantastic bodybuilder. Bill Pearl was fantastic bodybuilder and he liked 6 to 8 reps. Yates and Mentzer trained with low sets and Arnold and Ronnie liked high sets. What does this all prove? Nothing, train hard.

SquatsRule

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2012, 06:56:01 PM »
I didn't read the entire thread so If someone has mentioned this already, my bad. It's actually time under tension that counts more so than amount of reps.
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cephissus

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2012, 07:03:50 PM »
5-8 reps on basic movements and linear progression is the ONLY way I can progress, juice or no juice. Otherwise I stagnate pretty quickly.

what do you really mean by "progress"?

how much progression do you really see?  are you regularly adding weight to the bar, or reps?  if so, for how many years?  months?  weeks?

i think anything will work for a year or two, maybe three.  after that, no technique or periodization scheme is going to help.

Beach Muscles

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #70 on: December 01, 2012, 07:06:00 PM »
wow, well I guess you're one step ahead of everybody then and have it all figured out  8)

Nail on the head  :D
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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #71 on: December 01, 2012, 07:07:31 PM »
For me high reps doesn't build mass... low reps builds mass but mostly strength and makes me dense.

What I do is mix it up.. and what really works for long term size and strength is this routine:

set 1 12 reps
set 2 10 reps
set 3 8 reps
set 4 6 reps

Therefore I work in that hypertrophy range so to speak... while going progressively heavier... and always adjusting making sure im getting stronger and that i am really using the max weight to get to those reps.

Meh .. everyone's dif... purely strength only low reps <6 makes me super strong but little to no mass... high reps = makes me weak as crap and shrinks me down.... total waste of time... makes me feel NOTHING as if i am lifting paper while gradually getting weaker and smaller. Mixing it up like that with heavy weight and mix range of reps... = results

Make every set your maximum intensity and effort in those rep ranges... work hard... proper... i see no problem with this... that's just me... works for me...

Beach Muscles

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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2012, 07:20:37 PM »
12+ reps causing only glycogen retention is utter nonsense.

What it is, is that 12 to 25 reps build more TOTAL MUSCLE SIZE than low reps. Some of the size is from fast twitch growth, some from sarcoplasm/glycogen. Higher reps actually build muscle on a genetic level by decreasing myostatin levels in the trained muscle, whereas low reps do not. The pros dont use higher reps cuz theyre lazy, they use them because they just plain work.

If low reps have worked great for you then more power to ya. But its not the optimal way to go about pure mass training. For most people.


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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2012, 07:28:58 PM »
Occasionally I do low reps. Mostly stick between 8-15. My goal is size first strength second, my way serves my needs efficiently.
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Re: Build size with the 12-15-20 rep range?
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2012, 07:47:41 PM »
Coach, do you agree that doing 8 reps in a (4.2.4.0) tempo is a bigger time under tension on your muscle being worked than a repetition done in a (2.0.1.0) rep-tempo and therefore a whole different effect on your 3 energy systems?

peace D

The whole time under tension thing (IMHO) is so overblown.  How often do powerlifters use it?  How many bodybuilders use it?  Usually its the Poliquin-drones.