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Author Topic: On the fiscal cliff issue  (Read 982 times)
George Whorewell
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« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2012, 05:00:34 AM »

since "fair share" is always a judgment call you can't call it a "fact" unless you're saying the statement is in fact a correct representation of your opinion

If you want to talk about actual facts then how about the fact that a recent poll shows that 60% of Americans are in favor of raising taxes on the wealthy (and many other polls have shown this too)  http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/84319.html

Repubs are going to lose this one but first they are going to bitch and moan and  cry like a bunch of 3 year olds who don't want to eat their veggies.

Even a delusional liberal such as yourself has to be able to figure out why this is so dangerous. It's a judgment call made by whom? Largely unaccountable politicians? Suppose that judgment call takes us to where France is--- with a 75% tax rate on top earners.

Using vague, subjective and juvenile proclamations about fairness is an idiotic way to govern. Obama and his ilk use it to reassure stupid people that raising taxes is a good thing, as long as they don't have to pay for it. Of course, that won't end up being the case-- but who's paying attention?
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whork
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« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2012, 05:03:53 AM »

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=447769.25#lastPost

as you can see necrosis spending cuts will effect the bottom line much greater than tax hikes or increasing revenue.

So why not put your efforts towards cutting the wasteful/inefficient parts of the govt all around before trying to take away hard earned money away from anyone?

I dont wany anybody to have to give up more money then is needed to run the govt. I think we both can agree that the govt is extremely wasteful and can afford to cut a lot of fat off without effecting employment.

So why not cut that first?

Thats what I dont understand Necrosis, you seem to have deep seated dislike/hatred for "rich" ppl which causes you to want to punish them by taking more of their money.

Why would you rather take hard earned money away from ppl who it rightfully belongs before you cut the fat from the govt?

Tony you are taking money from the middle class and give it to the rich.
Cuts to spending means more private services and more bills for the middle class.
I see your reasoning but fact is that cutting spending will hurt the middle and our military.
Where as raising taxes will only mean the CEO needs to buy a Jaguar and not a Rolls for his wifes christmas present
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« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2012, 07:19:40 AM »


what offer has the gop made? lol, funny how the only person putting forth deals as was the case previously is the one comfortable going off this cliff. You are delusional.
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« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2012, 07:20:29 AM »

what offer has the gop made? lol, funny how the only person putting forth deals as was the case previously is the one comfortable going off this cliff. You are delusional.

Boehner said to start w Simpson Bowles. 
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Necrosis
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« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2012, 09:25:55 AM »

Boehner said to start w Simpson Bowles. 

Yes this was the first offer.
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tonymctones
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« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2012, 05:13:48 PM »

Tony you are taking money from the middle class and give it to the rich.
Cuts to spending means more private services and more bills for the middle class.
I see your reasoning but fact is that cutting spending will hurt the middle and our military.
Where as raising taxes will only mean the CEO needs to buy a Jaguar and not a Rolls for his wifes christmas present
Whork only an idiot thinks that there isnt any govt waste that can be cut without negatively effecting employment.

Sorry bro if you believe there is no waste in govt your tard, you dont then why not cut that out first before taking the money away from ppl who it rightfully belongs?

doesnt it seem unfair to ask private citizens to give more money to a govt that is so wasteful and inefficient?
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« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2012, 05:42:05 PM »

Whork only an idiot thinks that there isnt any govt waste that can be cut without negatively effecting employment.

Sorry bro if you believe there is no waste in govt your tard, you dont then why not cut that out first before taking the money away from ppl who it rightfully belongs?

doesnt it seem unfair to ask private citizens to give more money to a govt that is so wasteful and inefficient?

The GOP offer is to raise the age for Medicare and reduce cost of living increases for Social Security. This shouldn't be a problem for most Getbiggers, since you are all relative youngsters who likely have no concept of what it is like to be a senior citizen. Heck, a lot of you don't even think this will ever happen to you.

Personally, I find it fascinating that the GOP wants to raise the Medicare eligibility age and not SSI eligibility age. One can still retire early at age 62, which is too young for a healthy person, IMO. Currently Medicare eligibility age is 65. For folks who are disabled and on SSD, Medicare is awarded after you are on SSD for two years. Raising the Medicare eligibility age would have no effect on these folks. People who continue to work are likely to have employer provided medical benefits with better coverage than Medicare offers. There shouldn't be a big argument against keeping the Medicare eligibility age consistent with SSI eligibility.

When it comes right down to it, all this talk/proposals is a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Our legislators are acting like children regardless of whether they are Democrats or republicans. We should be insisting that they reach some agreement and quit playing party line games. The fact is that most people's expectations from government programs exceed what they are willing pay for them. -Translation, cut taxes but keep my benefits as they are. It is a formula that simply won't work in the long run. This is one of the reasons our national debt is ever growing.
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« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2012, 06:31:32 PM »

Suppose that judgment call takes us to where France is--- with a 75% tax rate on top earners.


Last time our tax rate was that high, we were experiencing one of the biggest economic booms we have ever had. Didnt seem to harm business then.
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tonymctones
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« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2012, 06:39:41 PM »

The GOP offer is to raise the age for Medicare and reduce cost of living increases for Social Security. This shouldn't be a problem for most Getbiggers, since you are all relative youngsters who likely have no concept of what it is like to be a senior citizen. Heck, a lot of you don't even think this will ever happen to you.

Personally, I find it fascinating that the GOP wants to raise the Medicare eligibility age and not SSI eligibility age. One can still retire early at age 62, which is too young for a healthy person, IMO. Currently Medicare eligibility age is 65. For folks who are disabled and on SSD, Medicare is awarded after you are on SSD for two years. Raising the Medicare eligibility age would have no effect on these folks. People who continue to work are likely to have employer provided medical benefits with better coverage than Medicare offers. There shouldn't be a big argument against keeping the Medicare eligibility age consistent with SSI eligibility.

When it comes right down to it, all this talk/proposals is a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Our legislators are acting like children regardless of whether they are Democrats or republicans. We should be insisting that they reach some agreement and quit playing party line games. The fact is that most people's expectations from government programs exceed what they are willing pay for them. -Translation, cut taxes but keep my benefits as they are. It is a formula that simply won't work in the long run. This is one of the reasons our national debt is ever growing.
Thats fine, I didnt mention any particular program...to think that there isnt waste in every govt program though that could be cut and not effect the benefits from that program is plain ignorant.

If you think the govt is a smooth running machine that is extremely efficient please raise your hand b/c Id like to know who to slap first.

you act like cutting benefits to medicare is the end of the world for you. Look at it from the "youngsters" point of view. It likely wont even be there by the time we get old enough to use it. So at least your getting something back for all the money you put in, WERE THE REAL ONES GETTING FUCKED!!!
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« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2012, 06:41:18 PM »

Last time our tax rate was that high, we were experiencing one of the biggest economic booms we have ever had. Didnt seem to harm business then.

No one came close to paying that 75% rate, slick.

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Primemuscle
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« Reply #35 on: December 04, 2012, 09:48:11 PM »

Thats fine, I didnt mention any particular program...to think that there isnt waste in every govt program though that could be cut and not effect the benefits from that program is plain ignorant.

If you think the govt is a smooth running machine that is extremely efficient please raise your hand b/c Id like to know who to slap first.

you act like cutting benefits to medicare is the end of the world for you. Look at it from the "youngsters" point of view. It likely wont even be there by the time we get old enough to use it. So at least your getting something back for all the money you put in, WERE THE REAL ONES GETTING FUCKED!!!

I absolutely did not act like cutting Medicare benefits would be the end of the world for me. That would be absurd on at least two levels; At 68 years of age, under that proposal, my benefits would not be cut and secondly, I purchase private medical insurance because Medicare doesn't provide me the coverage I want or my wife needs.

Incidentally, I also collect SSI being as how I am retired. Likewise if SSI failed, I have ample other income to survive just fine. Your weak attempt to make this about me, just doesn't wash.

Don't fall for the scare tactics some people employ. Rumors that SSI and Medicare are going under have persisted for years. Not that it couldn't happen of course, but law makers also benefit from these programs and so are very unlikely to let that happen. Before these benefits go bankrupt, there will be changes enacted to stop that happening. However if they do go bust, as you suggest, you will be the real ones getting fucked. I'll likely die of old age before then.

Incidentally, there are no "smooth running machines" either in government or in the private sector at least not on any permanent basis. So, what's your point?
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« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2012, 04:31:21 AM »

Whork only an idiot thinks that there isnt any govt waste that can be cut without negatively effecting employment.

Sorry bro if you believe there is no waste in govt your tard, you dont then why not cut that out first before taking the money away from ppl who it rightfully belongs?

doesnt it seem unfair to ask private citizens to give more money to a govt that is so wasteful and inefficient?

No its not unfair for citizens that have it all to give up some for those that have not.
They arent gonna miss the cash and it will benefit them when the countrys economy is healthy.
The money arent worth much if the country goes bankrupt.
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« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2012, 06:44:20 AM »

Last time our tax rate was that high, we were experiencing one of the biggest economic booms we have ever had. Didnt seem to harm business then.

Tax fraud was rampant.

Also....what time period did those rates exist in?
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« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2012, 08:09:45 AM »

Tax fraud was rampant.

Also....what time period did those rates exist in?

There were also tons more deductions. 
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whork
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« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2012, 08:58:43 AM »

There were also tons more deductions. 

Yup but they werent for the upperclass like now.
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« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2012, 10:48:03 AM »

Why is it that none of the repubs here find it odd that the GOP have offered nothing? the simply want Obama to offer them what they want, doesn't it seem odd?

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/02/on-the-fiscal-cliff-republicans-got-nothin.html


I can't see this working out for them.

What you mean offered nothing?? are you kidding? I say let it fall. Obama was going to let it anyway regardless of what plans were offered. He never had any intention of negotiating.
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« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2012, 12:39:24 PM »

What you mean offered nothing?? are you kidding? I say let it fall. Obama was going to let it anyway regardless of what plans were offered. He never had any intention of negotiating.

seems like an odd assertion considering he was the first to offer a proposal.
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« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2012, 02:13:24 PM »

seems like an odd assertion considering he was the first to offer a proposal.

Smoke and mirrors.
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« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2012, 02:40:30 PM »

seems like an odd assertion considering he was the first to offer a proposal.

He didnt offer a damn thing. 
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« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 04:51:06 PM »

He didnt offer a damn thing. 



Exactly...if they just want to conveniently define a start time, then they can make stupid claims like that.

And Canadian tards will lap it up.

But this has been going on for years.  It's just absurd at this point.
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« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2012, 05:22:35 PM »

He didnt offer a damn thing. 

He did but he doesnt have to. He gave the repugs the bush tax cuts 2 yrs ago...same thing then. They held it hostage to include the 1%. Well now its time again and americans remember the hostage game and the gloating.

This time THEY need to show theyre cards. The one shown recently is missing alot of the details.....and Americans are quick to notice this time!


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whork
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« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2012, 05:51:38 PM »

Thats fine, I didnt mention any particular program...to think that there isnt waste in every govt program though that could be cut and not effect the benefits from that program is plain ignorant.

If you think the govt is a smooth running machine that is extremely efficient please raise your hand b/c Id like to know who to slap first.

you act like cutting benefits to medicare is the end of the world for you. Look at it from the "youngsters" point of view. It likely wont even be there by the time we get old enough to use it. So at least your getting something back for all the money you put in, WERE THE REAL ONES GETTING FUCKED!!!

Can you mention some specific programs?
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« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2012, 06:35:19 PM »

Can you mention some specific programs?
how about 10% off the top of every programs operating expenses?

for some reason you think the govt is run as efficiently as possible and that no money could be squeezed out of it.

It idiotic to think that there isnt waste everywhere in the govt, its unfair to demand that others pay more of their hard earned money when there is waste in the govt that can be cut first.
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« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2012, 07:24:56 PM »

Even a delusional liberal such as yourself has to be able to figure out why this is so dangerous. It's a judgment call made by whom? Largely unaccountable politicians? Suppose that judgment call takes us to where France is--- with a 75% tax rate on top earners.

Using vague, subjective and juvenile proclamations about fairness is an idiotic way to govern. Obama and his ilk use it to reassure stupid people that raising taxes is a good thing, as long as they don't have to pay for it. Of course, that won't end up being the case-- but who's paying attention?

even a delusional neocon or whatever you are should know we're talking about a 3% increase in marginal tax rates (or thereabouts) on AGI > than 250k which would hardly be noticed by anyone making that kind of money and since we've already had these higher tax rates in the 1990's it's not exactly un-chartered territory where we have to guess what might happen. 

and yes, deciding "fair share" is a completely subjective thing so saying that the wealthy are paying there fair share and that is "a fact" is not a fact at all

that would be like me saying you are a moron and that's a fact.   

As much as I know this is true it's still only my opinion
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whork
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« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2012, 05:29:42 AM »

how about 10% off the top of every programs operating expenses?

for some reason you think the govt is run as efficiently as possible and that no money could be squeezed out of it.

It idiotic to think that there isnt waste everywhere in the govt, its unfair to demand that others pay more of their hard earned money when there is waste in the govt that can be cut first.

Of course there is waste there always will be.
If you want to fix all waste(impossible) before you raise taxes, there will never again be raised taxes but i suspect this is want you want all along Wink
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