George Zimmerman's injuries faked?

[Skip8282]

That's incorrect, deadly force is not permitted against "any attack", only if there is reasonable grounds to believe you are in real danger of death or great harm.
I would take a bet that is very rare for a person to be killed or sustain great bodily harm from getting into a one on one fight against an unarmed 160lb teenager.

No.  If you're getting into an MMA octagon with somebody, then you're not expecting a fist fight to result in death.

Middle of the night, 2 complete strangers, then a fist fight could end with your death.  To think you have to take x amount of some beating before you use deadly force is completely unreasonable.

[Dos Equis]

I never said angry I said very irritated, using the expletives "f@cking punks" and these "@ssholes" shows the hostility he had towards a teenager he knew nothing about and had never met.

OK lets drop the word pursue(as makes little difference). We know from the 911 transcript he was following Trayvon.

Apparently Trayvon's school found him with a screwdriver and jewellery but it is stated he received no punishment for this, I'm quite sure if they suspended him for graffiti, truancy and possession of a weed pipe, he surely would have been given some kind of formal punishment and the police would have been involved had it been established he was actually involved in burglary.


The fact he said he thought Trayvon was on drugs actually makes it worse for him.

It all points toward Zimmerman being an unstable character, his hostility towards someone he doesn't know, his decision to follow a stranger he thinks looks high on drugs.

A reasonable person with no formal police training would have listened to the dispatcher's advice not to follow Trayvon and would have waited by their car until the police arrived.

And if it can be established that he was not acting reasonably in the build up to Trayvon's shooting, why should anyone believe he was acting reasonably when the actual shooting took place.

I didn't hear hostility in his voice either.  He sounded pretty even keel.

The fact he thought Martin was on drugs, and Martin actually WAS on drugs makes it worse for Zimmerman??  I completely disagree.  It would have worse for Zimmerman if Martin was not on drugs and was a choir boy, instead of the thug he was. 

A reasonable person with a loaded gun would use it to shoot a guy who was pounding him in the face, breaking his nose and banging his head into the ground. 

The fact he followed him was not a crime.  The fact he may have not listened to a 911 dispatcher was not a crime, nor was it unreasonable.  Dumb maybe, but not unreasonable.  He was trying to protect his neighborhood from thugs like Martin. 

And keep in mind Zimmerman doesn't have to testify. 

[Conker]

I didn't hear hostility in his voice either.  He sounded pretty even keel.

The fact he thought Martin was on drugs, and Martin actually WAS on drugs makes it worse for Zimmerman??  I completely disagree.  It would have worse for Zimmerman if Martin was not on drugs and was a choir boy, instead of the thug he was. 

A reasonable person with a loaded gun would use it to shoot a guy who was pounding him in the face, breaking his nose and banging his head into the ground. 

The fact he followed him was not a crime.  The fact he may have not listened to a 911 dispatcher was not a crime, nor was it unreasonable.  Dumb maybe, but not unreasonable.  He was trying to protect his neighborhood from thugs like Martin. 

And keep in mind Zimmerman doesn't have to testify. 

I think when people are using phrases like "f@cking punk" and "these aholes" it's pretty much a given that they have hostility towards the person/s they are describing.

A reasonable person with no formal police training would not start following a stranger they believe looks high on drugs  in the dead of night, when they have been advised by a police operative not to do so. Those are the actions of a reckless wanna be cop.

And we only have Zimmerman's word to go on that he was taking this severe beating, the photographic evidence of his injuries certainly do not back his story. And while we're discussing Trayvon's previous character, it is worth noting that Zimmerman has a charge for assaulting a police officer, one more recorded incident of violence on his history than Trayvon.

Following Trayvon was not a crime, shooting him dead was.

I will bet that Zimmerman will testify, as all of the circumstantial evidence is against him.
His prior show of hostility(derogatory names) towards a stranger he was about to shoot dead , 1 minute before shooting we know Zimmerman was following and Trayvon was fleeing. His lack of injuries(not a single stitch) for the severe beating he says he took from Trayvon.

I would imagine getting a jury to believe his testimony is probably his best bet.

[Dos Equis]

I think when people are using phrases like "f@cking punk" and "these aholes" it's pretty much a given that they have hostility towards the person/s they are describing.

A reasonable person with no formal police training would not start following a stranger they believe looks high on drugs  in the dead of night, when they have been advised by a police operative not to do so. Those are the actions of a reckless wanna be cop.

And we only have Zimmerman's word to go on that he was taking this severe beating, the photographic evidence of his injuries certainly do not back his story. And while we're discussing Trayvon's previous character, it is worth noting that Zimmerman has a charge for assaulting a police officer, one more recorded incident of violence on his history than Trayvon.

Following Trayvon was not a crime, shooting him dead was.

I will bet that Zimmerman will testify, as all of the circumstantial evidence is against him.
His prior show of hostility(derogatory names) towards a stranger he was about to shoot dead , 1 minute before shooting we know Zimmerman was following and Trayvon was fleeing. His lack of injuries(not a single stitch) for the severe beating he says he took from Trayvon.

I would imagine getting a jury to believe his testimony is probably his best bet. 

What "police operative"?  It was a 911 dispatcher.  Calling an operator a "police operative" is embellishment.   

Zimmerman has a record?  Really?  Link? 

Following Martin was a not crime.  Shooting him dead in self defense was not a crime.

Your claims of no injuries is just bizarre.  How did Zimmerman's nose get broken?  How did he get cuts on the back of his head?   

[Conker]

No.  If you're getting into an MMA octagon with somebody, then you're not expecting a fist fight to result in death.

Middle of the night, 2 complete strangers, then a fist fight could end with your death.  To think you have to take x amount of some beating before you use deadly force is completely unreasonable.

You're never expecting a one on one fist fight to end in death, it's a freak occurrence when it does.

I don't think the Florida self defence laws were designed to allow someone to act in a manner that is likely to make a reasonable person fear for their safety(being followed by a stranger late at night) , then to shoot them dead when they start getting the worst of the physical confrontation their actions were quite likely going to cause.

But heyho who knows, i spose we'll find out when the case to comes to court.

[Conker]

What "police operative"?  It was a 911 dispatcher.  Calling an operator a "police operative" is embellishment.   

Zimmerman has a record?  Really?  Link? 

Following Martin was a not crime.  Shooting him dead in self defense was not a crime.

Your claims of no injuries is just bizarre.  How did Zimmerman's nose get broken?  How did he get cuts on the back of his head?   

You do like playing semantics, following someone is not pursuing them ...  a dispatcher is not a operative!

Definition of operative
noun
a worker, especially one in a manufacturing industry:
the operatives clean the machines at the end of every shift
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/operative

I'm quite sure a 911 dispatcher is worker for the police.


"In 2005, Zimmerman, then 20, was arrested and charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both which are third-degree felonies. The charge was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. Contemporaneous accounts indicate he shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at an Orange County bar."
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite


I forget he also has a domestic violence incident on his record too, so two more than Trayvon!

His nose doesn't look very badly damaged , his face looks very minimally marked and his head didn't require a single stitch. The photographs from the night tell the story of a man involved in a minor physical altercation. BTW the only injury Trayvon had was a 1/4 inch minor cut on one finger, you would have thought his hands would have been a bit more beat up considering he supposedly pounded Zimmerman in the head more than a dozen times with his bare knuckles...

[Dos Equis]

You do like playing semantics, following someone is not pursuing them ...  a dispatcher is not a operative!

Definition of operative
noun
a worker, especially one in a manufacturing industry:
the operatives clean the machines at the end of every shift
http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/operative

I'm quite sure a 911 dispatcher is worker for the police.


"In 2005, Zimmerman, then 20, was arrested and charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both which are third-degree felonies. The charge was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. Contemporaneous accounts indicate he shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at an Orange County bar."
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite


I forget he also has a domestic violence incident on his record too, so two more than Trayvon!

His nose doesn't look very badly damaged , his face looks very minimally marked and his head didn't require a single stitch. The photographs from the night tell the story of a man involved in a minor physical altercation. BTW the only injury Trayvon had was a 1/4 inch minor cut on one finger, you would have thought his hands would have been a bit more beat up considering he supposedly pounded Zimmerman in the head more than a dozen times with his bare knuckles...

Words mean things.  So does context.  Sometimes people misuse words in an attempt to bolster a position, like using the word "pursuing" instead of "following," to give the impression someone was being chased.  Or using the phrase "police operative" to refer to an operator, to make it appear as though someone disobeyed a law enforcement order. 

Thanks for the link.  Your claim that "Zimmerman has a charge for assaulting a police officer" is pretty misleading.  According to the link, the charge was reduced to "resisting officer without violence" then later dismissed "when he entered an alcohol education program." 
 
Saying he has a "domestic violence incident on his record" is also very misleading.  From your link:  "In August 2005, Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman counterfiled for a restraining order against Zuazo. The competing claims were resolved with both restraining orders being granted." 

Yes, sounds like a very violent man there.  lol

How did his nose get broken?  And how did he get cuts on the back of his head? 

[Conker]

Words mean things.  So does context.  Sometimes people misuse words in an attempt to bolster a position, like using the word "pursuing" instead of "following," to give the impression someone was being chased.  Or using the phrase "police operative" to refer to an operator, to make it appear as though someone disobeyed a law enforcement order.  

Thanks for the link.  Your claim that "Zimmerman has a charge for assaulting a police officer" is pretty misleading.  According to the link, the charge was reduced to "resisting officer without violence" then later dismissed "when he entered an alcohol education program."  
  
Saying he has a "domestic violence incident on his record" is also very misleading.  From your link:  "In August 2005, Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman counterfiled for a restraining order against Zuazo. The competing claims were resolved with both restraining orders being granted."  


Yes, sounds like a very violent man there.  lol

How did his nose get broken?  And how did he get cuts on the back of his head?  

And sometimes people try to pick at irrelevant details, like trivial differences between the interpretation of certain words instead of focusing on the real substance of the argument.

I said Zimmerman has a charge for assaulting a police officer, he was officially charged with "resisting an officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer"
So it's not misleading at all, just because the charge was later reduced and waived due to him going on some kind of rehabilitory program does not the change the fact he was arrested and CHARGED for assaulting a police officer.

And I think it is also a fact that he has an "incident" of domestic violence on his record, I never said he was convicted or charged , but a restraining order was granted against him for the incident. If we are gonna bring up Trayvon being caught by his school with "burglary tools"( a screwdriver) even though he received no formal punishment for that. I think it's worth mentioning an incident that led to a court of law  targeting Zimmerman with a restraining order.


Not saying he sounds like a particularly violent man from the above, but has more recorded incidents regarding violence on his record than Trayvon, who AFAI had none either with his school or the law.

I would guess his nose was broken(if actually was, can broken bones be proved without xray?) and minor cuts to his head, were sustained during what going on the photographic evidence of Zimmeran from the night of the killing was a minor physical altercation he had with an unarmed teenager that he had decided to follow late at night.

[Dos Equis]

And sometimes people try to pick at irrelevant details, like trivial differences between the interpretation of certain words instead of focusing on the real substance of the argument.

I said Zimmerman has a charge for assaulting a police officer, he was officially charged with "resisting an officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer"
So it's not misleading at all, just because the charge was later reduced and waived due to him going on some kind of rehabilitory program does not the change the fact he was arrested and CHARGED for assaulting a police officer.

And I think it is also a fact that he has an "incident" of domestic violence on his record, I never said he was convicted or charged , but a restraining order was granted against him for the incident. If we are gonna bring up Trayvon being caught by his school with "burglary tools"( a screwdriver) even though he received no formal punishment for that. I think it's worth mentioning an incident that led to a court of law  targeting Zimmerman with a restraining order.


Not saying he sounds like a particularly violent man from the above, but has more recorded incidents regarding violence on his record than Trayvon, who AFAI had none either with his school or the law.

I would guess his nose was broken(if actually was, can broken bones be proved without xray?) and minor cuts to his head, were sustained during what going on the photographic evidence of Zimmeran from the night of the killing was a minor physical altercation he had with an unarmed teenager that he had decided to follow late at night.

So you disagree with the doctor who said Zimmerman had a broken nose? 

Do you also think the pictures of his bleeding head were doctored? 

[blacken700]

i don't know why the blood on his face or the cut on his head are mentioned,they don't mean shit if he was the aggressor

[tonymctones]

i don't know why the blood on his face or the cut on his head are mentioned,they don't mean shit if he was the aggressor

any evidence he was the aggressor?

[blacken700]

i don't know why the blood on his face or the cut on his head are mentioned,they don't mean shit if he was the aggressor

[240 is Back]

any evidence he was the aggressor?

that's up to the jury to decide.  They get plenty of cases where a fight isn't caught on video camera.  There is 911 call evidence that zimmerman was persuing trayvon "I'm going after him" and "he's running away".   Then we have a dead body.  It's up to the jury to decide.  just because I chase a kid into an alley where no witnesses are, and execute him,doesn't mean I beat the rap because "you can't PROVE what happened".   There's a dead kid that I was following, my ass is going to prison for it.

I didn't hear hostility in his voice either.  He sounded pretty even keel.  

he calmly called Trayvon a punk and an a$$hole.   Yes, the jury will love that.

[Dos Equis]

i don't know why the blood on his face or the cut on his head are mentioned,they don't mean shit if he was the aggressor

There is zero evidence he was the aggressor (i.e., attacked Martin).  There is plenty of evidence Martin attacked Zimmerman, including the blood on Zimmerman's face and the cut on the BACK of his head. 

I haven't read anything that showed Martin had injuries indicating Zimmerman punched him. 

[blacken700]

There is zero evidence he was the aggressor (i.e., attacked Martin).  There is plenty of evidence Martin attacked Zimmerman, including the blood on Zimmerman's face and the cut on the BACK of his head. 

I haven't read anything that showed Martin had injuries indicating Zimmerman punched him. 

hahahahahahaha that doesn't prove martin was the aggressor

[Dos Equis]

hahahahahahaha that doesn't prove martin was the aggressor

hahahahahahaha yes it does

[blacken700]

hahahahahahaha yes it does

it proves he was losing the fight,for all we know zimm started it. i can't believe you think that blood on zimm proves martin was the agressor,now that's funny

[Dos Equis]

it proves he was losing the fight,for all we know zimm started it. i can't believe you think that blood on zimm proves martin was the agressor,now that's funny

What fight?  Where is the evidence Zimmerman threw or landed a punch?  I think it's funny you don't think Zimmerman's broken nose and cut on the back of Zimmerman's head, coupled with the lack of any injuries on Martin show Martin was the aggressor.     

[Skip8282]

What fight?  Where is the evidence Zimmerman threw or landed a punch?  I think it's funny you don't think Zimmerman's broken nose and cut on the back of Zimmerman's head, coupled with the lack of any injuries on Martin show Martin was the aggressor.     

Do we know Trayvon's injuries yet?  Has the full report been released and would those things show up during an autopsy?

I didn't know he was showing lack of injuries.  Interesting.

[blacken700]

What fight?  Where is the evidence Zimmerman threw or landed a punch?  I think it's funny you don't think Zimmerman's broken nose and cut on the back of Zimmerman's head, coupled with the lack of any injuries on Martin show Martin was the aggressor.     

who said it had to be a punch,he could have threw him down to the ground, i'm glad your not my lawyer

[240 is Back]

I consider chasing someone in the dark, two blocks with a gun, to be an act of aggression.

[Conker]

So you disagree with the doctor who said Zimmerman had a broken nose? 

Do you also think the pictures of his bleeding head were doctored? 

No I was asking whether a broken bone could be 100% diagnosed without an xray ? Or is it deemed a suspected broken nose in the absence of xray?

Either way it makes little difference people are not fools , they can look at the pics of Zimmerman from the police station and see his injuries were minimal.

No his head was definitely bleeding, superficial cuts that didn't need a single stitch.

No one is disputing that he was in a physical fracas with Trayvon and he was coming off worse, but his injuries amounted to him being a little "bumped and bruised" not would you'd expect after being pounded in the face more than dozen times.

[Conker]

There is zero evidence he was the aggressor (i.e., attacked Martin).  There is plenty of evidence Martin attacked Zimmerman, including the blood on Zimmerman's face and the cut on the BACK of his head. 

I haven't read anything that showed Martin had injuries indicating Zimmerman punched him. 

That isn't evidence that he was "attacked", that is just evidence that he was in a physical conflict, just because he came off worse is not proof he was attacked...a more logical scenario than Zimmerman's account that they switched roles and Trayvon started coming after him, is that Zimmerman caught up with him, perhaps he continued to use the type of hostile language towards him he had used to refer to him in the 911 call, perhaps he made an attempt to physically detain Trayvon?

Of course that is just speculation and Zimmerman is really the only one that knows what happened, but he has already been caught out lying/changing his story under oath and conspiring with his wife to mislead a court as to his finances, so who knows how much credibility his word is going to be given by a jury.

I think circumstantial evidence will be heavily relied on in this case.
 

[240 is Back]

the 911 call, in zimm's own words, show that trayvon is running away, and that zimm is chasing him.

60 seconds pass, then a physical confrontation and shooting.

The jury will have to decide if they truly believe ZImmerman really "gave up and started walking back" at the exact minute Trayvon "changed course and went into crazy attack mode".

Or, is the more likely outcome that in those 60 seconds, Zimmerman took the back way around a house, cut off trayvon, and they fought?

To me, it's not credible that both people instantly changed course in that one minute.  More likely they continued on their actions from the 911 call, with zimm chasing and trayvon eluding.  The jury will decide.  There is no duty of prosecution to "prove" that minute of time - most cases that reach juries are very incomplete.  They have to look at the pieces and decide what they THINK happened.

I can't exactly drag a kid into an alley, shoot his head off, then gloat "you can't PROVE what went on in that alley, so I walk!"   Nope, if I created the situation, there's a missing window of time without witnesses, then I murder a mofo, I'm doing serious time...

[Jack T. Cross]

Could it be that Zimmerman caught up with Martin, and Martin immediately became aware of the gun?  Could a witness be made to say that it appeared as though Martin was trying to use his knee to pin Zimmerman's hand or arm at any point when he was on top of Zimmerman?