Author Topic: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?  (Read 3800 times)

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2012, 07:33:31 PM »
you were a janitor at a school, not to give you shit b/c i dont judge a person on their worth by their job but to say you worked in education b/c you were a janitor at a school is stretching the truth.

I don't know about the school system with which you are familiar, but in the district were I worked everyone there "worked in education." We all had to abide by the same morals clause and were expected to model behavior to students. To say I was (just) a janitor would be stretching the truth in a different direction. I was responsible for over 85 employees and millions of dollars in products and equipment. I was the onsite project manager for several multi-million dollar remodels at various buildings in the district. In addition, I was our Union President, a position where I represented the interests of over 1,000 classified employees who held a variety of educational positions in negotiations with their supervisors, HR and at the bargaining table. Indirectly, you are judging me without really knowing me or what my work entailed. Incidentally, there was and is no job classification titled "janitor" in the district.  

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2012, 07:40:03 PM »
Quote
What Is the U.S. Department of Education?

The U.S. Department of Education is the agency of the federal government that establishes policy for, administers and coordinates most federal assistance to education. It assists the president in executing his education policies for the nation and in implementing laws enacted by Congress. The Department's mission is to serve America's students-to promote student achievement and preparation for global competitiveness by fostering educational excellence and ensuring equal access.

When Congress created the Department in 1979, it declared these purposes:

1.   to strengthen the Federal commitment to ensuring access to equal educational opportunity for every individual;
2.   to supplement and complement the efforts of States, the local school systems and other instrumentalities of the States, the private sector, public and private educational institutions, public and private nonprofit educational research institutions, community-based organizations, parents, and students to improve the quality of education;
3.   to encourage the increased involvement of the public, parents, and students in Federal education programs;
4.   to promote improvements in the quality and usefulness of education through federally supported research, evaluation, and sharing of information;
5.   to improve the coordination of Federal education programs;
6.   to improve the management and efficiency of Federal education activities, especially with respect to the process, procedures, and administrative structures for the dispersal of Federal funds, as well as the reduction of unnecessary and duplicative burdens and constraints, including unnecessary paperwork, on the recipients of Federal funds; and
7.   to increase the accountability of Federal education programs to the President, the Congress and the public. (Section 102, Public Law 96-88)


For more: http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/focus/what_pg2.html#whatis

The ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union) is not a government agency and has no power to enact laws.

https://www.aclu.org/secure/sem-get-updates-fight-freedom?ms=gad_SEM_Google_Search-Evergreen-ACLU%20Brand_ACLU%20General%20Terms_american%20civil%20liberties%20union%20aclu_b_14322395782


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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2012, 07:41:28 PM »
No need for F'ed DOE.


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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2012, 08:29:07 PM »
Get a teaching degree, take a comparatively low paying job teaching for a few years and then come back an tell everyone what is wrong with education.


I have a teaching degree and I taught about 7 years :)

Honestly, schools are nothing more than a reflection of society.

People aren't reading newspapers, they're skimming facebook walls.
People aren't spending time in libraries, they're googling quick answers to questions.
People can't count, they use their calculators or apps.

People communicate in fragments/blurbs on cell phones.  They don't read books, they don't ponder philosophy.  They absorb 100x the info every day what people did 50 years ago, and they register less of it as a result. 

People don't give a crap, and when they have kids, they don't give a crap.  And when those kids grow up to be teachers, some of them don't give a crap.

Schools aren't failing - society is failing.  It's that simple.  School, police departments, private sectors, lemonade stands, grocery stores... customer service and quality is down on everything you see. 

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2012, 08:29:15 PM »
They wrote the rules.

If by they, you mean the ACLU, you are wrong. The ACLU may lobby for changes in the law, but they have no power to actually enact them. What they are is a watchdog of the law and of people's civil liberties. Is the ACLU a powerful organization? Absolutely! Regardless of how powerful and influential they are, they must abide by the laws just like the rest of us.


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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2012, 08:30:18 PM »

Roger Bacon

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2012, 08:32:06 PM »
Right on Coach.

Please check your PM's brother

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2012, 08:38:49 PM »
They wrote the rules.

Here's another reason why the PS system is screwed. They lie and indoctrinate our kids...


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/05/california-teachers-union-video-shows-rich-man-urinating-on-poor-to-make-case/%20?test=latestnews

The video is in poor taste and does not reflect well on the California teachers union, which supposedly endorsed it. Politics is often an ugly business and political pundits frequently cross the line, which is unfortunate.

There is nothing in this video that is designed to "indoctrinate our kids," rather, it appears to be geared towards politicians who are usually adults, although that is hard to tell with them sometimes.

Poor behavior by any adult whether they be a certified teacher or not is not in the best interest of children. Children learn from adults. I hate to think some are learning how to behave from Getbig.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2012, 08:58:25 PM »
If by they, you mean the ACLU, you are wrong. The ACLU may lobby for changes in the law, but they have no power to actually enact them. What they are is a watchdog of the law and of people's civil liberties. Is the ACLU a powerful organization? Absolutely! Regardless of how powerful and influential they are, they must abide by the laws just like the rest of us.



I just pulled some of my paperwork from last year from a school I coach at in the Charter Oak school district. At the bottom of two pieces, it clearly states "Prepared by the American Civil Liberties Union of California (ACLU). Even my son's coach (A Christian conservative) complains about them and the red tape. Sorry dude, don't know what to tell ya!

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2012, 09:06:18 PM »
The video is in poor taste and does not reflect well on the California teachers union, which supposedly endorsed it. Politics is often an ugly business and political pundits frequently cross the line, which is unfortunate.

There is nothing in this video that is designed to "indoctrinate our kids," rather, it appears to be geared towards politicians who are usually adults, although that is hard to tell with them sometimes.

Poor behavior by any adult whether they be a certified teacher or not is not in the best interest of children. Children learn from adults. I hate to think some are learning how to behave from Getbig.

Telling impressionable kids that rich people are evil is blatant indoctrination anyway you define it. You have kids who's parents are rich now thinking 'daddy is bad" because he is rich. You have kids that will grow up thinking it's wrong to be wealthy, how wrong is that? Seriously, what the hell is the matter with you people? Settling for the status quo might be your thing but to kill a kids dreams who might be surrounded by people who know what it's like to earn what ever their heart desires is flat out WRONG. Did anyone bother to ask Ed Asner how much he has made? He's filthy rich. Gimme a freaking break!

This kind of indoctrination does nothing but promote a lazy society.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2012, 09:12:36 PM »
can you guys really look around at any grocery store and tell us you're getting the same level of service as you did 20 years ago?

(on average - not talking exceptions, we're talking about overall quality of service that you see places)

any gas station?

any movie theater?

any police man?

Think about any place you visit on a daily basis - the quality of employee and serivce you got 20 years ago, versus today.

private or public, it doesn't matter.  Schools are just like everyone else.  The guy at the gas station used to pump your gas and ask you if you needed anything.  Today, you pump your own and the 1 dude working is texting his mistress while you wait in line for him to get to the counter.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2012, 09:21:27 PM »
can you guys really look around at any grocery store and tell us you're getting the same level of service as you did 20 years ago?

(on average - not talking exceptions, we're talking about overall quality of service that you see places)

any gas station?

any movie theater?

any police man?

Think about any place you visit on a daily basis - the quality of employee and serivce you got 20 years ago, versus today.

private or public, it doesn't matter.  Schools are just like everyone else.  The guy at the gas station used to pump your gas and ask you if you needed anything.  Today, you pump your own and the 1 dude working is texting his mistress while you wait in line for him to get to the counter.

Teachers and Civil service HAVE to be held at a higher standard. You cannot lump them in with a gas station or movie theater. Being a teacher or civil servant, you should know what you're in for before even considering it. If you consider being a teacher in the PS system, you know approximately what your salary is going to be and you SHOULD realize that you're not doing it for the money but to actually help kids. If you can't realize that, then you're in the wrong business.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2012, 09:25:20 PM »
Teachers and Civil service HAVE to be held at a higher standard. You cannot lump them in with a gas station or movie theater. Being a teacher or civil servant, you should know what you're in for before even considering it. If you consider being a teacher in the PS system, you know approximately what your salary is going to be and you SHOULD realize that you're not doing it for the money but to actually help kids. If you can't realize that, then you're in the wrong business.


they're made up of the same people that work in every other industry.

I believe that people - in general, as a whole, on average - have stopped caring, have stopped paying attention, have stopped reading books, have stopped caring about customer service.  Things like smartphones and all the meds they're on...

I'm 36.  I spent a lot of years in college, i spent 7 years teaching, and i have teachers in my family... i'm very honest about what I saw, experienced, etc.  I was VERY VERY frustrated as a teacher, with the casual-ass nature of MOST of the other teachers.   showing up late, talking during training, just basically not caring. 

I believe nothing will change as long as the PEOPLE being pumped into the college system are lazy, low attention span, low-info, immature, etc. 

And the only way to change those people is to change standards - move it up to REQUIRING masters to teach.  But you have to bump up their salary then, as well.  We can barely pay for the teachers we have now.  Add 30% to every salary for the masters, ouch.

magikusar

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2012, 09:29:14 PM »
best thing is let teachers sell thier services to the public

:)


any socialist stuff like now is jsut going to be messy crapfest

no reason to do well at all

no reason to perform

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2012, 09:43:04 PM »

they're made up of the same people that work in every other industry.

I believe that people - in general, as a whole, on average - have stopped caring, have stopped paying attention, have stopped reading books, have stopped caring about customer service.  Things like smartphones and all the meds they're on...

I'm 36.  I spent a lot of years in college, i spent 7 years teaching, and i have teachers in my family... i'm very honest about what I saw, experienced, etc.  I was VERY VERY frustrated as a teacher, with the casual-ass nature of MOST of the other teachers.   showing up late, talking during training, just basically not caring. 

I believe nothing will change as long as the PEOPLE being pumped into the college system are lazy, low attention span, low-info, immature, etc. 

And the only way to change those people is to change standards - move it up to REQUIRING masters to teach.  But you have to bump up their salary then, as well.  We can barely pay for the teachers we have now.  Add 30% to every salary for the masters, ouch.

Funny you say that some teachers have quit caring. In some cases it's true and sad. I have a friend who teaches in the Santa Ana school district here in cali and the in that particular school, the graduation rate is below 60%. I went there to help the FB coaches with their strength program, went to see the training facility and to say the least, it was abysmal, no upholstery on the benches, just the wood, a few benches, a rickety squat rack and some DB's. I asked why this gym was like this and if the district was lacking funds. He said (his words) "the district has plenty of money to help but they literally don't care because of the graduation rate". in other words, they have given up on those kids. Since it's primarily hispanic, they don't really have a boosters club because of the lack of disposable income. Sad. 

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2012, 09:54:35 PM »
Funny you say that some teachers have quit caring. In some cases it's true and sad. I have a friend who teaches in the Santa Ana school district here in cali and the in that particular school, the graduation rate is below 60%. I went there to help the FB coaches with their strength program, went to see the training facility and to say the least, it was abysmal, no upholstery on the benches, just the wood, a few benches, a rickety squat rack and some DB's. I asked why this gym was like this and if the district was lacking funds. He said (his words) "the district has plenty of money to help but they literally don't care because of the graduation rate". in other words, they have given up on those kids. Since it's primarily hispanic, they don't really have a boosters club because of the lack of disposable income. Sad. 

They CAN get better teachers.  They CAN have better standards.  But they have to pay MORE money in order to get higher quality candidates.

I have an MBA, I have 7 years teaching experience, I have some real world experience - I was an excellent teacher back in 2004/2005 when I left, and I'd be a stellar teacher today.  But would I want to work 45 to 50 hours a week for $35,000?   Get up at 6 am, deal with all that stress, being away from home 10 hours a day, driving to work, wearing a tie, and dealing with all that stress?   I work in my undies, I'm on getbig at 12;52 am :)  I plan on sleeping in tomorrow.  Work a while, then have fun.

Now, if a guy like me, MBA and lots of experience, was offered $127k a year to teach... you bet I'd do it!  And I'd do a stellar job.  Wear a tie, work 55 hours, and my students would be VERY prepared for real life.   It'd take a LOT of work for a high quality candidate like me - worth it at 127k, but not worth it at 35,000.

If they want to change the system, then teachers need to be paid a lot more to get better candidates.  Won't happen.

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2012, 10:31:32 PM »
I just pulled some of my paperwork from last year from a school I coach at in the Charter Oak school district. At the bottom of two pieces, it clearly states "Prepared by the American Civil Liberties Union of California (ACLU). Even my son's coach (A Christian conservative) complains about them and the red tape. Sorry dude, don't know what to tell ya!

Was your "paperwork" law? The fact that you have paperwork which may have been published by the ACLU changes nothing I said. The ACLU cannot pass laws, they are not a government agency and they are not Congress. The ACLU can however print literature reminding folks of the laws as the pertain to civil liberties.

The laws enacted by Congress which enforce civil liberties may indeed result in "red tape" for everyone having to comply with said laws. However since the ACLU does not either create or enact those laws, your criticism is clearly misdirected.

If the ACLU feels someones civil liberties according the the law are violated, they can and do take it to court for resolution. A person or an organization can be sued by the ACLU. You can also sue the ACLU if you believe they have violated the law.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2012, 10:41:33 PM »
They CAN get better teachers.  They CAN have better standards.  But they have to pay MORE money in order to get higher quality candidates.

I have an MBA, I have 7 years teaching experience, I have some real world experience - I was an excellent teacher back in 2004/2005 when I left, and I'd be a stellar teacher today.  But would I want to work 45 to 50 hours a week for $35,000?   Get up at 6 am, deal with all that stress, being away from home 10 hours a day, driving to work, wearing a tie, and dealing with all that stress?   I work in my undies, I'm on getbig at 12;52 am :)  I plan on sleeping in tomorrow.  Work a while, then have fun.

Now, if a guy like me, MBA and lots of experience, was offered $127k a year to teach... you bet I'd do it!  And I'd do a stellar job.  Wear a tie, work 55 hours, and my students would be VERY prepared for real life.   It'd take a LOT of work for a high quality candidate like me - worth it at 127k, but not worth it at 35,000.

If they want to change the system, then teachers need to be paid a lot more to get better candidates.  Won't happen.

I wish you had been my fucking teacher, in every grade.  Like Mr. Feeny

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2012, 10:45:30 PM »
Telling impressionable kids that rich people are evil is blatant indoctrination anyway you define it. You have kids who's parents are rich now thinking 'daddy is bad" because he is rich. You have kids that will grow up thinking it's wrong to be wealthy, how wrong is that? Seriously, what the hell is the matter with you people? Settling for the status quo might be your thing but to kill a kids dreams who might be surrounded by people who know what it's like to earn what ever their heart desires is flat out WRONG. Did anyone bother to ask Ed Asner how much he has made? He's filthy rich. Gimme a freaking break!

This kind of indoctrination does nothing but promote a lazy society.

Nothing in the FOX news article you linked proves this video was directed or was shown to kids. As is usual with the media they are relying on the power of suggestion and the fact most people don't bother forming their own opinions based solely on the facts. This not to say if it aired on network television, youngsters would not see it, because they very well could.

I am surprised that you work in a school setting and you don't know that in most school districts a teacher or in your case a coach taking a political stance by showing kids a video such as this, could be grounds for dismissal.

Just so I have a better picture of what you do, what sport or sports do you coach? Are you contracted to coach for the season by the district or are you an actual employee? What are your credentials. In other words, are you a certified staff or "ad hoc" staff?

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2012, 11:00:31 PM »
I wish you had been my fucking teacher, in every grade.  Like Mr. Feeny

remember shows like 'saved by the bell'?   They had the same school staff from 5th grade until college.

Roger Bacon

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2012, 11:02:01 PM »
remember shows like 'saved by the bell'?   They had the same school staff from 5th grade until college.

haha yeah, TV use to be awesome

I always pictured Middle School and High School to be like Saved By The Bell.  It was a complete let down lol

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2012, 11:05:13 PM »
haha yeah, TV use to be awesome

I always pictured Middle School and High School to be like Saved By The Bell.  It was a complete let down lol

yep, every girl would be tiff amber thiessen or jesse from showgirls.   it wasn't at all like that. 

Primemuscle

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2012, 11:12:47 PM »
can you guys really look around at any grocery store and tell us you're getting the same level of service as you did 20 years ago?

(on average - not talking exceptions, we're talking about overall quality of service that you see places)

any gas station?

any movie theater?

any police man?

Think about any place you visit on a daily basis - the quality of employee and serivce you got 20 years ago, versus today.

private or public, it doesn't matter.  Schools are just like everyone else.  The guy at the gas station used to pump your gas and ask you if you needed anything.  Today, you pump your own and the 1 dude working is texting his mistress while you wait in line for him to get to the counter.

Believe it or not, competition for business between service stations in my neighborhood is pretty high (so are the gas prices, unfortunately). I live in Oregon, so it goes without saying that I don't pump my own gas. Often if the station isn't full with customers, the attendant will offer to wash my window.

When I was a kid, I briefly worked at a Standard Oil gas station. We were trained to always check the air pressure, water, oil and clean the windows, but then we were also expected to sell oil to the customers and put it in. These days, folks are expected to check their own oil, buy it off the shelf and put it in the car. Cars also don't burn oil like they used to.

Customer service has changed a lot. It is not all the employees fault when it is under par. Some employers deal in volume and could care less about customer service, thus instructing their employees to process the customer as expediently as possible.

Have you noticed that Sears has no clerks aside from those who work in big ticket departments. If you want to pay for merchandize, you line up at one of a couple of check out stations, often manned by one cashier who barely speaks or understands English.

In contrast, I was shopping with a friend who was looking for a specific clothing item at J.C. Penny's and asked for assistance from a clerk who proceeded to almost run through the store pulling sweaters and tops of the racks. Within a few minutes, she came back to us with about a half dozen items she thought might work. Needless to say, I was impressed. Unfortunately, nothing was right for my friend so she ended up buying what she needed at Macy's.

Customer service is sometimes reciprocal. When my wife and I eat out, which is often, we don't hesitate to let servers know when we think they are doing a great job and not just by tipping them accordingly. Even in semi fast food restaurants like Shari's the staff treats us like we the king and queen or at least their good friends. Anna who works at Shari's sometimes sits down with us an chats while we decide what to order. At another restaurant, when our favorite server was leaving her job because she was moving, on her last day we took her a plant for her new home. Sadly, none of the other servers have lived up to the high standards she set.

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Re: Can we talk about why Public Schools are failing?
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2012, 11:23:24 PM »
haha yeah, TV use to be awesome

I always pictured Middle School and High School to be like Saved By The Bell.  It was a complete let down lol

At least you remember what your middle school experience was like. It has been so long since I was in middle school, I barely remember it. I have a couple of grade school and high school memories....some good and some less so.

I only remember three of my teachers. When I was in the 3rd grade, I lived in Michigan with cousins who had a farm. At the edge of their farm was a one room brick school house staffed by one teacher for about twenty of us kids who ranged in age and grade level. She was like our daytime mom who did everything from teaching us our lessons to making sure we ate our lunch and bandaging our skinned knees after recess which she'd also monitor. In high school, I very much enjoyed my drama teacher Robert Ely and my art teacher who submitted some of my art work to Art Center in Los Angeles, CA, which resulted in my getting a special summer scholarship there.