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Author Topic: Software Engineer -- any Getbigger write code for a living?  (Read 2110 times)
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« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2013, 07:34:15 PM »

I am digging the fact that if I have a software engineering question..or something I want to white board...Getbiggers on tap to hash it out. (Or make mom jokes..whichever comes first...)

Just got tapped for lead in 2+ year project...I'm going to have a lot of "best practices" engineering questions.

Sure, glad to help...oops, I mean, "What is your exact location?"
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« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2013, 02:40:23 AM »

This thread has become a bit too nerdy for my taste. Here, have this


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« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2013, 04:54:10 AM »

Software engineer, won't enclose details about my "career" coz it will bring too unwanted attention Cheesy

Software engineers are most boring people on the planet, 90% of them are either married or 30 yo virgins. Once we obtained device that belongs to company I used to work in from a guy from our team... He forgot to close browser. Fucker was watching porntube on corporate device, on corporate wifi, at work. Guy wears shirts in pants, uses ton of lube on his hair and says hello directly to everyone in company every friggin time he comes there. Creepy as fuck.

But most fucked up part is working with bunch of guys who are unable to talk about anything except from software, new hardware and getting drunk, maybe their kids if they're married.

Ok, I stand corrected, MOST HORRIBLE PART about them being nerds is that they keep picking on my food. I was told by my parents its rude to comment on other people's food while eating, especially when you want to make a negative comment. But every fucking day I get some comments from fuckers who want to tell me that "diet coke is unhealthy" or "you eat too much chicken", "your diet is boring", "you add ketchup to everything, that's weird", "why do you drink olive oil". Just shut the fuck up already, FFS. I swear one day I will burst out or start spamming them with detailed analysis of what they had for a dinner with pubmed articles about trans fats and other shit they digest every day.

Not sure how is that related to this particular job but for whatever reason everyone who has ever made a comment about my food was a software engineer Cheesy
Nerd Rage Meltdown.
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« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2013, 12:20:32 PM »

Years and years ago I had an IT director that was seriously on some hardcore tren. Always angry as shit, high bp, etc... nah I never asked him about it, but I could tell lmao, was well built, but serious rage issues hahaha.
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« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2013, 02:08:21 PM »

That's exactly the shit I'm dealing with, well, everyone is in that company. I think it's not working out well and we're doomed to be honest.

Well, hang in there. It may look like being up shit creek without a paddle, but you are gaining valuable experience. It will be invaluable when you decide to make a move.
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« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2013, 06:02:46 PM »

I started coding when I was 13, that was 29 years ago.  Let me swing my dick in the ring too.

The industry has changed massively in that time. I don't really see much opportunity for coders in North America/Europe any more.

Russian/Indian programmers are cheap and just as good as their western counterparts. Unless you have a real niche, it's just going to be a very average paid job.

Back in 1996 I was contracting in the US and the daily rate was $900. I pay programmers in Thailand between $1,500 -> $2,500 per month. Productivity isn't as good in some respects but better in others.

The last web site I had built cost $150 for the design and $800 to build the site - all by a guy in Russia.

It's a different game now, programmers are plentiful for all the mainstream stuff. I know a PLC programmer that works in the steel industry that still makes good money but this is the exception, not the rule.
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« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2013, 06:05:38 PM »

Well, hang in there. It may look like being up shit creek without a paddle, but you are gaining valuable experience. It will be invaluable when you decide to make a move.

No, I'm definately moving.

 - multiplication of what I earn right now
 - way better perspectives
 - back-end which I love instead of front-end (yay)
 - different country (change of sorroundings, it will do me good)

I'm 23, plenty of time to find my place.
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« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2013, 11:57:05 AM »

No, I'm definately moving.

 - multiplication of what I earn right now
 - way better perspectives
 - back-end which I love instead of front-end (yay)
 - different country (change of sorroundings, it will do me good)

I'm 23, plenty of time to find my place.

UK?
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« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2013, 05:11:44 PM »

UK?

USA, too many Poles in UK. They hate us and honestly they have legit reason.
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« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2013, 05:35:40 PM »

USA, too many Poles in UK. They hate us and honestly they have legit reason.

Just be sure to think in terms of total compensation (value of retirement accounts, healthcare, etc.) and the cost of living for the area, not just salary. Good luck!
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« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2013, 03:12:14 AM »

Just be sure to think in terms of total compensation (value of retirement accounts, healthcare, etc.) and the cost of living for the area, not just salary. Good luck!

Thanks, I get very well compensated. Visa stuff is a bitch tho. For some legal reasons I will have to get back to Poland for nearly a fucking year due to that after my trial... Unless woman from embassy was right and recruiters and my friends were not.

Maybe someone from here knows, since it's american board - is there period of time during the year that I can get visa, so that if say I want to get back to work in december and I decided in october then I cannot do that because limit of visas they can give to poles for a year was reached few months ago and I have to wait until next spring when they reset the limit?
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« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2013, 03:24:17 AM »

Software engineer, won't enclose details about my "career" coz it will bring too unwanted attention Cheesy

Software engineers are most boring people on the planet, 90% of them are either married or 30 yo virgins. Once we obtained device that belongs to company I used to work in from a guy from our team... He forgot to close browser. Fucker was watching porntube on corporate device, on corporate wifi, at work. Guy wears shirts in pants, uses ton of lube on his hair and says hello directly to everyone in company every friggin time he comes there. Creepy as fuck.

But most fucked up part is working with bunch of guys who are unable to talk about anything except from software, new hardware and getting drunk, maybe their kids if they're married.

Ok, I stand corrected, MOST HORRIBLE PART about them being nerds is that they keep picking on my food. I was told by my parents its rude to comment on other people's food while eating, especially when you want to make a negative comment. But every fucking day I get some comments from fuckers who want to tell me that "diet coke is unhealthy" or "you eat too much chicken", "your diet is boring", "you add ketchup to everything, that's weird", "why do you drink olive oil". Just shut the fuck up already, FFS. I swear one day I will burst out or start spamming them with detailed analysis of what they had for a dinner with pubmed articles about trans fats and other shit they digest every day.

Not sure how is that related to this particular job but for whatever reason everyone who has ever made a comment about my food was a software engineer Cheesy

you're a pole in poland right? i'm an american't in poland and you poles are nosey as fuck and always concerned about others and giving them unwanted opinions which is annoying as fuck Cheesy

where the fuck does this come from? is it from communist mistrust of everyone, everything?

on a side note, there are some pretty cool poles, and not all of them are noseyass busybodies
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« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2013, 04:13:41 AM »

you're a pole in poland right? i'm an american't in poland and you poles are nosey as fuck and always concerned about others and giving them unwanted opinions which is annoying as fuck Cheesy

where the fuck does this come from? is it from communist mistrust of everyone, everything?

on a side note, there are some pretty cool poles, and not all of them are noseyass busybodies

I have no idea man. I was brought up different way. I come from smaller city where me and my parents are well known. It's pretty common that when i'm shopping in local store someone comments my basket loud in front of me, "you buy so much fruits, you are rich" or something like that. I have no idea where this is comming from tbfh. I must admit that it makes us look pretty bad and pretty third fucking world ;d

BTW winner of the month is a guy who made a comment about my conversations with other guys which he overheard... He does know them but he's their friend and I've never talked to him in my life ;d Listening to other people's conversations is one thing but this guy took it to another level when he started attacking me based on what he overheard, epic.
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« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2013, 04:21:16 AM »

I have no idea man. I was brought up different way. I come from smaller city where me and my parents are well known. It's pretty common that when i'm shopping in local store someone comments my basket loud in front of me, "you buy so much fruits, you are rich" or something like that. I have no idea where this is comming from tbfh. I must admit that it makes us look pretty bad and pretty third fucking world ;d

don't worry man, i met some pretty good poles, and not all are like this

there's good and bad peeps everywhere

and another thing, my friends find it pretty funny that i sometimes kinda dig the plastic fantastic girls here Tongue

but i usually end up with a good sweet girl, since i'm just a good and sweet guy Grin

i have a feeling that you'll be disappointed by the usa once you get there, but that's just my opinion, and maybe you'll like it there
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« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2013, 04:23:04 AM »

No one is perfect but the key is to be able to accept bad sides of someone. Honestly I'm not able to accept this, among many other things. But of course money is main factor.

Bottom line - I know many guys who worked in Poland for a while, moved to USA to large companies... Everyone says it's different world. The only problem is language barrier. If someone who can code stays here it's either fear, gf or language barrier.
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« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2013, 02:34:13 PM »

So last two weeks banging away pulling hair learning PHP, HTML (well since the last time I used it was when frames were 'cool') and CSS styling. All for a good cause of course.
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« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2013, 02:57:17 PM »

This thread has become a bit too nerdy for my taste. Here, have this

You're a good man!  Cool
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« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2013, 04:21:52 PM »

Suck my pole!
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« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2013, 05:36:54 PM »

So last two weeks banging away pulling hair learning PHP, HTML (well since the last time I used it was when frames were 'cool') and CSS styling. All for a good cause of course.

Welcome to 2003....  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #69 on: February 08, 2013, 02:28:29 PM »

I started coding when I was 13, that was 29 years ago.  Let me swing my dick in the ring too.

The industry has changed massively in that time. I don't really see much opportunity for coders in North America/Europe any more.

Russian/Indian programmers are cheap and just as good as their western counterparts. Unless you have a real niche, it's just going to be a very average paid job.

Back in 1996 I was contracting in the US and the daily rate was $900. I pay programmers in Thailand between $1,500 -> $2,500 per month. Productivity isn't as good in some respects but better in others.

The last web site I had built cost $150 for the design and $800 to build the site - all by a guy in Russia.

It's a different game now, programmers are plentiful for all the mainstream stuff. I know a PLC programmer that works in the steel industry that still makes good money but this is the exception, not the rule.

I agree with a lot of your points. Globalisation has definitely made developer salaries go down. However, it is still true that developer salaries are well above average.

I have to take some exception with your points about foreign programmers being just as good as Western... my experience so far indicates the exact opposite...
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« Reply #70 on: February 09, 2013, 01:32:13 AM »

I agree with a lot of your points. Globalisation has definitely made developer salaries go down. However, it is still true that developer salaries are well above average.

I have to take some exception with your points about foreign programmers being just as good as Western... my experience so far indicates the exact opposite...

Actually, I didn't say they were just as good. I said productivity is worse in some ways but better in others.

In the UK and to some extents in the US, people tend to be out of the door at 5:30pm and that's fine. Here in certain Asian countries, they may not be as highly skilled but there's guys/gals still in the office on a regular basis at 9pm. To a large degree it's a cultural thing but also because a lot of young people stay with their parents till marriage, so why go home?

You pay a third/a quarter of the salary, you get a developer that might not be as good as the best UK/US developer but you get someone that is very committed to the job. The other issue that Europe suffers from that US doesn't is the ridiculous fucking holidays. I worked in Netherlands & Germany and those fuckers are hardly ever there.

This of course presumes that you create the sort of working environment that motivates them.

I know some fantastic Indian programmers but I know a lot of crappy ones and the guys in India (I worked with expat Indians in US as well as those in India) are real job hoppers and salaries have risen to the point where the cost differential is not so great now.

In terms of raw skills, coding isn't really that hard a job. A lot of it is fairly mundane work that does not require that huge intelligence. On a team of say 100 people, you need perhaps 3 or 4 shining stars coding wise and the rest of your coders can be average. In fact, this is the preferred state of affairs. You don't want the grunts getting itchy feet and moving else where. Their value is in knowledge of your processes and IP.

Bottom line is that you don't need the programmers to all be great. You just need a few good ones, decent process and a nice working environment. Then you have a team that can churn out a lot of good code whilst you keep staff turnover low.
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« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2013, 05:24:49 PM »

Russian/Indian programmers are cheap and just as good as their western counterparts. Unless you have a real niche, it's just going to be a very average paid job.

Actually, I didn't say they were just as good. I said productivity is worse in some ways but better in others.


In the UK and to some extents in the US, people tend to be out of the door at 5:30pm and that's fine. Here in certain Asian countries, they may not be as highly skilled but there's guys/gals still in the office on a regular basis at 9pm. To a large degree it's a cultural thing but also because a lot of young people stay with their parents till marriage, so why go home?

You pay a third/a quarter of the salary, you get a developer that might not be as good as the best UK/US developer but you get someone that is very committed to the job. The other issue that Europe suffers from that US doesn't is the ridiculous fucking holidays. I worked in Netherlands & Germany and those fuckers are hardly ever there.

This of course presumes that you create the sort of working environment that motivates them.

I know some fantastic Indian programmers but I know a lot of crappy ones and the guys in India (I worked with expat Indians in US as well as those in India) are real job hoppers and salaries have risen to the point where the cost differential is not so great now.

In terms of raw skills, coding isn't really that hard a job. A lot of it is fairly mundane work that does not require that huge intelligence. On a team of say 100 people, you need perhaps 3 or 4 shining stars coding wise and the rest of your coders can be average. In fact, this is the preferred state of affairs. You don't want the grunts getting itchy feet and moving else where. Their value is in knowledge of your processes and IP.

Bottom line is that you don't need the programmers to all be great. You just need a few good ones, decent process and a nice working environment. Then you have a team that can churn out a lot of good code whilst you keep staff turnover low.

You're changing the goal posts, pal. If you think cheap offshore developers are better value for money because they spend ten hours a day doing something that I can do in half an hour, well, you've got another thing coming. Anyone can build a website and be a coder, millions of Indian code monkeys are proof of this. Not anyone can be a developer- that is to say, understand complex business processes,  quickly produce appropriate solutions that fit existing legacy frameworks and do things like automated testing. Or try having an Indian work on a CRM app, the cultural gap will overwhelm them (I'm seeing this first hand every day).

Have a look around the internet- Indians have a terrible reputation. Poor abstract thinking, need their hands held, take many breaks throughout the day, need someone constantly on top of their head to make sure they're not slacking off, not to mention: they write SHIT code. Code that works is not huge task indeed (let's assume for the sake of the argument that half of foreign coders can do it), but can everyone write re-usable, maintanenable, extensible, well-documented, unit-tested code? You'll find the degree of difficulty increasing by an order of magnitude with each of the previous requirements. And they are mandatory for every developer, not just super-stars. Try explaining approaches like TDD or BDD to a foreigner, they look at you like you're from Mars.

Again, I'm not parrotting the internet on this, I'm seeing it first hand every day and soon I may have to be involved in some unpleasant decisions.

Do you know what Brian Fargo said? Something to the effect that no person in the chair is better than the wrong person. Because if there's noone there, at least you know the job isn't getting done. The implication being that with the wrong person, you don't know what will happen.
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« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2013, 10:02:33 PM »

You're changing the goal posts, pal. If you think cheap offshore developers are better value for money because they spend ten hours a day doing something that I can do in half an hour, well, you've got another thing coming. Anyone can build a website and be a coder, millions of Indian code monkeys are proof of this. Not anyone can be a developer- that is to say, understand complex business processes,  quickly produce appropriate solutions that fit existing legacy frameworks and do things like automated testing. Or try having an Indian work on a CRM app, the cultural gap will overwhelm them (I'm seeing this first hand every day).

Fortunately - this isn't the case. In terms of hourly productivity, I'd put them at 75-90% of Western developers. In terms of commitment to a project, I'd put them at 200%.

I would guess you have only worked for very small organizations. Programmers simply do not do all the things you mention above in anything but the smallest of organisations. We have separate people writing business level specs, doing design, coding and unit test, system testing, packaging & releasing. Implementation and supports staff are also different. You can't maintain millions of lines of code and have programmers making the tea, cleaning the windows, fixing the pool cars and all the other stuff you mentioned. Programming is only 20-30% of the total system development effort.

What you discuss, where a developer is 'jack of all trades' falls apart as an organization grows and it also breaks down when you have fairly average staff turnover.

In my experience, which includes running offshore development centers in Asia for the past 15 years, the glue that holds all this together is good management & process.

Have a look around the internet- Indians have a terrible reputation. Poor abstract thinking, need their hands held, take many breaks throughout the day, need someone constantly on top of their head to make sure they're not slacking off, not to mention: they write SHIT code. Code that works is not huge task indeed (let's assume for the sake of the argument that half of foreign coders can do it), but can everyone write re-usable, maintanenable, extensible, well-documented, unit-tested code? You'll find the degree of difficulty increasing by an order of magnitude with each of the previous requirements. And they are mandatory for every developer, not just super-stars. Try explaining approaches like TDD or BDD to a foreigner, they look at you like you're from Mars.

Well - I could look this up on teh interweb or I could just use my own experience. I live in Asia, spent a year in Japan as a consultant, helping the staff at a Japanese MNC to implement processes that enabled them to implement 4000 functional changes to a major commercial system and start rolling it out in their factories. The bulk of the developers we used were from Manila but we also had a team in India and of course we had a lot of Japanese developers too. After that - back in '97, I moved to Thailand and built a team there that maintains and enhances a number of modules of a major commercial system. I'm not talking about customization - I am talking about product development of entire modules of a massive product. That includes taking instruction from product marketing and then being responsible till it goes into standard product. Soup to nuts.

On top of that - a good portion of the R&D is now done there as well as the maintenance of the programming language the product is written in. This is complex stuff but then anything is complex until you break it down into manageable chunks and that is the art of system development and that is why on a large team you only need a few 'hero programmers'. You need grunts mostly.

Again, I'm not parrotting the internet on this, I'm seeing it first hand every day and soon I may have to be involved in some unpleasant decisions.

Do you know what Brian Fargo said? Something to the effect that no person in the chair is better than the wrong person. Because if there's no-one there, at least you know the job isn't getting done. The implication being that with the wrong person, you don't know what will happen.

One thing I will agree with you on is the communication skills needed to ensure a US/European team can work with an Asian one. This is why the team I built was so successful, I was there day in day out managing the communications and ensuring there wasn't any misunderstanding. That particular organization can handle itself in that respect because we got locals in key roles that caught on pretty fast.

Fact is - if a US company sends work to India and thinks it's going to come back perfect, they will get caught out. They will be 100% responsible for 50% of the communication issues.
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