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Author Topic: Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins  (Read 9441 times)
a_ahmed
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 02:54:53 PM »

But Jesus refused to die. It's on topic. When he was tempted by the devil to kill himself and jump off a cliff and the devil told him if you are truly the son of God, God will save you. Jesus said do not tempt the devil.

So?
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2013, 03:05:31 PM »

But Jesus refused to die. It's on topic. When he was tempted by the devil to kill himself and jump off a cliff and the devil told him if you are truly the son of God, God will save you. Jesus said do not tempt the devil.

So?

Loco is not able to respond to arguments, he is only able to paste verses in the faint hope that they somehow convince us of his beliefs despite not being able to answer our questions regarding them.

This picture sums him up Wink

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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 03:06:40 PM »

But Jesus refused to die. It's on topic. When he was tempted by the devil to kill himself and jump off a cliff and the devil told him if you are truly the son of God, God will save you. Jesus said do not tempt the devil.

So?

Actually Jesus told Satan, "You must not test the Lord your God."

So?
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bigbobs
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 03:06:42 PM »

Pretty arrogant to assume that the posted verses are for you and ahmed.  More than you and ahmed read this board.

I don't think I'm being arrogant at all.  I can say loco is being arrogant for not responding to any of our questions that are on-topic.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2013, 03:16:23 PM »

Actually Jesus told Satan, "You must not test the Lord your God."

So?

Okay so on topic here, Jesus is asked to commit suicide and he refuses to die.

Are you trying to imply that Jesus responding is saying he is Lord your God?
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« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2013, 03:22:21 PM »

I don't think I'm being arrogant at all.  I can say loco is being arrogant for not responding to any of our questions that are on-topic.

Add context to the verses and that's deemed "just our interpretation".  Post verses alone and it's not sufficient because their isn't any additional context.  Post the comments of Christians theologians it's ignored or scoffed at.  Simply leave your own comments with no verses and we're making up words because there are no verses included.  If you post a single verse or two their isn't enough context so the entire chapter is required.  If you post the entire chapter it's deemed too much to read and is ignored.  Cite a book for reference from an accredited theologian and that gets, "so I need a book to answer my single question?"  Point is, there isn't a sufficient answer for you or ahmed...no amount of explanation, context, scripture, experience, external reference, online reference, etc....will suffice.  You'll object to this statement as well saying, "it isn't true that nothing will suffice," which validates that nothing is sufficient LOL.  I've written small essays on this board answering a myriad of questions and objections (ahmed's primarily)....nothing is sufficient.  Keep in mind that the claim of insufficiency doesn't invalidate a word I've written....this statement will probably get the ole "that goes both ways though".  Difference is, I don't attack Islam (and disagreeing is different than attacking).  I don't need Islam discredited to validate Christianity.

It's really not my problem anymore.

I basically ignore ahmed for the most part now unless he completely misrepresents Christians...then I respond.
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« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2013, 03:29:03 PM »

Okay so on topic here, Jesus is asked to commit suicide and he refuses to die.

Are you trying to imply that Jesus responding is saying he is Lord your God?
Jesus came to die on Calvary's cross....Satan doesn't dictate the terms.   


Certainly, no one else is being tempted other than Jesus.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM »

lol "yep"

I guess that's how I should respond to your post.

Sorry but the whole Jesus vs devil event pretty much crumbles your story.

Why is supposedly 'god' being tempted in the first place? Can't God make sound decisions, why does the devil even tempt him? "Dictating" terms ey?

You didn't answer my direct question?

Are you saying that in that verse Jesus is responding stating he is "Lord your God"
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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2013, 03:47:45 PM »

lol "yep"

I guess that's how I should respond to your post.

Sorry but the whole Jesus vs devil event pretty much crumbles your story.

Why is supposedly 'god' being tempted in the first place? Can't God make sound decisions, why does the devil even tempt him? "Dictating" terms ey?

You didn't answer my direct question?

Are you saying that in that verse Jesus is responding stating he is "Lord your God"

"crumbles your story"....well, ok.

God is the God of all creation and everything in it.....every bit of creation is subject to his divine law and power.

How bout this ahmed?  I no longer want to engage, debate or respond to you....I really, truly do not.  I know what you're about, you know what I'm about.....so that's it.  So, I won't respond to you and you don't respond to me.  Just ignore my posts and I'll ignore yours.   If you wanna claim "I beat MOS" I'm at complete peace with that.

So, respond once more to this and we're done, ok?  I won't reply back. 

God bless.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2013, 03:50:20 PM »

So in face of verses that contradict the trinity and all that you preach. You either "moving on..." or it's not okay as above and you won't debate any further and you know what im about and what you're about etc...?

You still didn't respond to my question, and I know why because I am 'trapping' you again where I'll post the numerous verses from the old testament that Jesus is in fact basically referencing to (to help you and others out, he is not stating he is God).

If it were the truth and you were after the truth you wouldn't feel trapped in the first place.
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« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2013, 03:56:22 PM »

Add context to the verses and that's deemed "just our interpretation".  Post verses alone and it's not sufficient because their isn't any additional context.  Post the comments of Christians theologians it's ignored or scoffed at.  Simply leave your own comments with no verses and we're making up words because there are no verses included.  If you post a single verse or two their isn't enough context so the entire chapter is required.  If you post the entire chapter it's deemed too much to read and is ignored.  Cite a book for reference from an accredited theologian and that gets, "so I need a book to answer my single question?"  Point is, there isn't a sufficient answer for you or ahmed...no amount of explanation, context, scripture, experience, external reference, online reference, etc....will suffice.  You'll object to this statement as well saying, "it isn't true that nothing will suffice," which validates that nothing is sufficient LOL.  I've written small essays on this board answering a myriad of questions and objections (ahmed's primarily)....nothing is sufficient.  Keep in mind that the claim of insufficiency doesn't invalidate a word I've written....this statement will probably get the ole "that goes both ways though".  Difference is, I don't attack Islam (and disagreeing is different than attacking).  I don't need Islam discredited to validate Christianity.

It's really not my problem anymore.

I basically ignore ahmed for the most part now unless he completely misrepresents Christians...then I respond.

I don't attack Christianity.  My beliefs regarding Jesus are actually pretty much in accordance with Unitarian Christianity.  I question and debate Trinitiarian Christianity but that does not mean I'm attacking it.

My accusation that loco copy-and-pastes without providing any explanation and without attempting to answer my questions is soley towards loco and not you.  He's done this countless times.  He posts what he likes, does not tell us his interpretation of verses he pastes even when we question it, and he doesn't respond to any of my or Ahmed's questions and instead accuses us of being off-topic, even though we are on topic.  Therefore if anything he is the arrogant one here. 
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2013, 04:12:30 PM »

You know the paradox of the title of the thread itself:

Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins

Yet Christians are sinning every day, Muslims are sinning every day, all of mankind is sinning every day. So dying is not stopping anyone from sinning. What is the teaching here? Keep sinning and you are saved already?

Islam does not teach this at all. You are right. Through our understanding Jesus did not come to 'die' for you, but rather STOP you from sinning by teaching the children of Israel to whom he was sent to from being corrupted as they were corrupted! Are societies today less corrupted? No far more corrupted! That's why with no law of God, but man made laws, man is corrupting the earth that much more.

For example. How over night homosexuality is suddenly accepted and man made laws are passed to allow it, endorse it, etc... Even 'gay churches', controversial but reality. But of course they are not real christians. But when we go to what the bible EXACTLY states about homosexuality then it's taboo because then we are talking about 'the law'. Which Jesus himself practiced and did not deny. His early followers (Not catholics, not today's evangelical christians, etc...) followed and obeyed.

All this stuff just seizes to exist the moment we try to tackle the trinity because the trinity itself cannot be sustained by anything but these beliefs. That's why it always goes back to debating the trinity.

No one is attacking or denouncing Jesus. If anything we love Jesus and praise Jesus and respect Jesus far more than any general every day Christian. No. We are talking about the trinity and the false premises it entails. That's what's on the table from day one.
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« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2013, 04:46:56 PM »

But Jesus refused to die. It's on topic. When he was tempted by the devil to kill himself and jump off a cliff and the devil told him if you are truly the son of God, God will save you. Jesus said do not tempt the devil.

So?

I already answered you.  First, Satan did not tell Jesus to "kill himself", but he told Jesus to put God to the test.  Second, Jesus refused to do what Satan told him to do, and why wouldn't Jesus refuse to do anything Satan told him to do?  Third, it wasn't Jesus' time to die either way.  Jesus would die on his own accord and not when Satan told him to die, even though that wasn't what Satan told him to do.

John 7:30
At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come.

John 8:20
He spoke these words while teaching in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.

John 10:17-18
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.
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« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2013, 04:48:51 PM »

I don't think I'm being arrogant at all.  I can say loco is being arrogant for not responding to any of our questions that are on-topic.

You have not asked any questions, least of all one "on-topic."  And how could you?

I didn't even read your quotes and don't feel any motivation to either

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2013, 05:05:18 PM »

You know the paradox of the title of the thread itself:

Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins

Yet Christians are sinning every day, Muslims are sinning every day, all of mankind is sinning every day. So dying is not stopping anyone from sinning. What is the teaching here? Keep sinning and you are saved already?

Islam does not teach this at all. You are right. Through our understanding Jesus did not come to 'die' for you, but rather STOP you from sinning by teaching the children of Israel to whom he was sent to from being corrupted as they were corrupted! Are societies today less corrupted? No far more corrupted! That's why with no law of God, but man made laws, man is corrupting the earth that much more.

For example. How over night homosexuality is suddenly accepted and man made laws are passed to allow it, endorse it, etc... Even 'gay churches', controversial but reality. But of course they are not real christians. But when we go to what the bible EXACTLY states about homosexuality then it's taboo because then we are talking about 'the law'. Which Jesus himself practiced and did not deny. His early followers (Not catholics, not today's evangelical christians, etc...) followed and obeyed.

All this stuff just seizes to exist the moment we try to tackle the trinity because the trinity itself cannot be sustained by anything but these beliefs. That's why it always goes back to debating the trinity.

No one is attacking or denouncing Jesus. If anything we love Jesus and praise Jesus and respect Jesus far more than any general every day Christian. No. We are talking about the trinity and the false premises it entails. That's what's on the table from day one.

I like this post, a_ahmed!  I'd like to respond to it, and I will later.  Got to run now.  Peace be unto you!
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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2013, 05:12:43 PM »

You have not asked any questions, least of all one "on-topic."  And how could you?

 Roll Eyes

Why the rolley eye?  I did not read the numerous quotes.  I did however read the thread title and posted a response to it including questions which it appears you would rather not address:

Re: the topic of the thread, my questions are:

1)  If Jesus really did sacrifice himself for our sins, why do we have to believe that he died for our sins in order to actually be forgiven?  There's really no sacrifice in that.  I'll die for your sins so that you may be forgiven but if you don't believe that I'm dying for your sins you won't be forgiven.   Roll Eyes

2)  Why does God almighty need to sacrifice someone (or himself) in order to forgive us?  If God wants to forgive our sins he can do it without any sacrifice.  Which entity created this mysterious law that God can not forgive us unless one is sacrificed for our sins?

For these reasons "dying for our sins" makes absolutely no sense to me.

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« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2013, 05:47:29 PM »

all well and good but I did  not ask him to do this
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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2013, 09:31:49 AM »

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loco
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« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2013, 02:29:22 PM »

You know the paradox of the title of the thread itself:

Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins

Yet Christians are sinning every day, Muslims are sinning every day, all of mankind is sinning every day. So dying is not stopping anyone from sinning. What is the teaching here? Keep sinning and you are saved already?


a_ahmed, the Bible teaches neither that Jesus' sacrifice automatically stops us from ever sinning again, nor does it teach Christians that we can continue habitually sinning at will because we are already saved.

Jesus died for our sins so that we can be forgiven our sins and go to Heaven to be with God.  But first, says the Bible, we must genuinely repent of our sins and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.  Accepting Jesus as Lord means we must obey Jesus and follow his commandments, which are summarized in loving God and loving one another.

You are right, Christians still sin though we no longer want to sin.  The flesh, the world and Satan are still with us and around us.  Jesus said in Mark 14:38 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”  But it goes both ways:  Christians also work hard to avoid sin and also do a lot of good works and help a lot of people.  Why would Christians do all these good things when they believe that their salvation is already secured?  

People who believe that Jesus died for our sins, that Jesus is our Lord, and who genuinely repent of our sins, don't want to sin again.  We want to gradually become more like Jesus, speak as he did, act as he did, sin not, love God, love others, share his Gospel with others, help the needy, etc.   We want to follow God's law, not to earn our salvation since we are already certain that we have it through Jesus, but because we want to be more and more like Jesus.

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

1 John 2:1-3
1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2013, 03:26:19 PM »

lol no one has to die for God to forgive you. God has forgiven in the past without any 'sacrifice' (even if we were to talk about that).

This is just ludicrous human sacrifice and plain and simple unjust contrary to any human justice much less Godly justice.

Sorry but you're just repeating yourself.

God can forigve and has forgiven without someone being 'killed' much less supposedly 'god' committing suicide. That's just ludicrous and blasphemous at best.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2013, 03:33:35 PM »

A few bits from the bible:

5 Finally, I confessed all my sins to you
and stopped trying to hide my guilt.
I said to myself, “I will confess my rebellion to the LORD.”
And you forgave me!
All my guilt is gone.

6 Therefore, let all the godly pray to you while there is still time,

Psalm 32

Just like Islam teaches, there is always time as long as you are alive, repent, ask for God's forgiveness and He will forgive you Smiley

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways," says the Lord GOD. "Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin."
Ezek 18:30

Also like in Islam everyone will be judged accordingly to their ways and what they did.


17 “Now, our God, hear the prayers and petitions of your servant. For your sake, O Lord, look with favor on your desolate sanctuary. 18 Give ear, O God, and hear; open your eyes and see the desolation of the city that bears your Name. We do not make requests of you because we are righteous, but because of your great mercy. 19 O Lord, listen! O Lord, forgive! O Lord, hear and act! For your sake, O my God, do not delay, because your city and your people bear your Name.

Isaiah 1:18-20

God forgives sins just like how we supplicate various sincere supplications to God as Muslims


18 “Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson,
they shall be like wool.
19 If you are willing and obedient,
you will eat the best from the land;
20 but if you resist and rebel,
you will be devoured by the sword.”

What do you have to do to be forgiven?

2 chronicles 7
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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2013, 03:34:47 PM »

If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 15Now my eyes will be open and my ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place. 16I have chosen and consecrated this temple so that my Name may be there forever. My eyes and my heart will always be there.

Psalms 25

Look David praying for forgiveness and God hearing his prayer and forgiving him.

Imagine that, no one was killed or sacrificed or suicided for it.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2013, 03:35:36 PM »

Then David confessed to Nathan, "I have sinned against the LORD." Nathan replied, "Yes, but the LORD has forgiven you, and you won't die for this sin.

2 Samuel 12:13

Imagine that. BOOOOOOOOOM no one has to die and God has forgiven you. WAAAAAAAABAAAAAAAAM
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« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2013, 03:36:24 PM »

Here's a bit of qur'an on forgiveness Smiley

Surah Al-Qasas

15. And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies. So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.
16. He said: My Lord! Lo! I have wronged my soul, so forgive me. Then He forgave him. Lo! He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

David peace be upon him was forgiven for making a mistake in ruling or judging

Surah saad


(David) said: He hath wronged thee in demanding thine ewe in addition to his ewes, and lo! many partners oppress one another, save such as believe and do good works, and they are few. And David guessed that We had tried him, and he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he bowed himself and fell down prostrate and repented.
25. So We forgave him that; and lo! he had access to Our presence and a happy journey's end.

Prophet Jonah peace be upon him was saved from the belly of the fish after he repented to God inside the fish

Surah al anbiya


87. And (mention) Dhu'n-Nun, when he went off in anger and deemed that We had no power over him, but he cried out in the darkness, saying: There is no God save Thee. Be Thou glorified! Lo! I have been a wrong-doer.
88. Then we heard his prayer and saved him from the anguish. Thus we save believers.

Adam was forgiven for eating from the tree

Surah Baqara


36.*    But Satan caused them to deflect therefrom and expelled them from the (happy) state in which they were; and We said: Fall down, one of you a foe unto the other! There shall be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a time.
37.*    Then Adam received from his Lord words (of revelation), and He relented toward him. Lo! He is the relenting, the Merciful.
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« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2013, 03:39:34 PM »

One of the names of Allah is Al-Ghafur THE FORGIVING!

You have NO IDEA how many verses there are on mercy, forgiveness, peace, etc... in the qur'an and even sayings of the prophet  Muhammad (pbuh) in hadith. Supplications, events, etc... I could go on and on and on about the beauty of Islam and God's mercy.









Sincere repentance is key, not human sacrifice.
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