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Author Topic: Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins  (Read 8324 times)
a_ahmed
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« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2013, 09:35:34 PM »

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loco
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« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2013, 12:53:24 PM »



Mark 2:5-12
5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves,
7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?
8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things?
9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?
10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man,
11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”
12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2013, 11:41:09 AM »

So we're changing the subject now? I proved to you from the bible that no one has to die for God to forgive sins. Case closed. Your premise was untrue/false, you just repeated things Paul said such as the wages of sin is death, etc... etc... Not the word of God, or prophets/messengers, just an invented lie. God forgives if you sincerely repent and seek his forgiveness. All I illustrated through my quotations of the qur'an and the supplications of Muslims is how merciful God is. He doesn't need anything from any of us especially innoscent human sacrifice.
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loco
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« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2013, 12:15:09 PM »

So we're changing the subject now? I proved to you from the bible that no one has to die for God to forgive sins. Case closed. Your premise was untrue/false, you just repeated things Paul said such as the wages of sin is death, etc... etc... Not the word of God, or prophets/messengers, just an invented lie. God forgives if you sincerely repent and seek his forgiveness. All I illustrated through my quotations of the qur'an and the supplications of Muslims is how merciful God is. He doesn't need anything from any of us especially innoscent human sacrifice.

You are the one who posted that only Allah can forgive sins.  Jesus can and does forgive sins, and he said so himself.

When did I repeat things Paul said about the wages of sin?  I quoted the Gospels, the apostles and Jesus himself.  Jesus said that he came to die for our sins.

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 11:50-52
50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”
51 He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation,
52 and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one.

1 John 4:10
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Acts 4:12
Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

1 Peter 2:24
who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.

John 14:6-8
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2013, 01:28:10 PM »

Bro are you blind or just ...?

Did you see all the verses I posted about God forgiving without anyone dying or sacrifice.

Your point was proven false. Next.
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loco
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« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2013, 01:33:48 PM »

Bro are you blind or just ...?

Did you see all the verses I posted about God forgiving without anyone dying or sacrifice.

Your point was proven false. Next.

Then you have to ask yourself, why then would Jesus clearly say over and over that he came to die for our sins and to save us?
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2013, 01:50:31 PM »

Why does supposedly "Jesus" contradict himself over and over again. Or rather why do the authors of the new testament contradict themselves over and over again?

You were shown the opposite now you've got nothing your point is mute. The same has happened on every other point you've attempted to prove. I've used the bible and the bible alone to prove you wrong.

According to the bible no one has to die for God to forgive sins which was the premise of your argument.

Paul is the one that said wages of sin is death NOT Jesus. Jesus (pbuh) said many things. Bottom line he came to SAVE the children of Israel from their wicked ways, disobedience and corruption by telling them to abstain from sins and corruption. But they were and are haughty and disobidient.

Otherwise if we take your point of view then people are gonna remain corrupted as they are today and they are 'saved' (Huh) by continuing to be corrupted. It makes no sense, impractical, lie, non beneficial, deception, etc...
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loco
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« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2013, 01:54:05 PM »

Why does supposedly "Jesus" contradict himself over and over again. Or rather why do the authors of the new testament contradict themselves over and over again?

You were shown the opposite now you've got nothing your point is mute. The same has happened on every other point you've attempted to prove. I've used the bible and the bible alone to prove you wrong.

According to the bible no one has to die for God to forgive sins which was the premise of your argument.

Paul is the one that said wages of sin is death NOT Jesus. Jesus (pbuh) said many things. Bottom line he came to SAVE the children of Israel from their wicked ways, disobedience and corruption by telling them to abstain from sins and corruption. But they were and are haughty and disobidient.

Otherwise if we take your point of view then people are gonna remain corrupted as they are today and they are 'saved' (Huh) by continuing to be corrupted. It makes no sense, impractical, lie, non beneficial, deception, etc...

What are you talking about?  Jesus did not contradict himself.  Please quote Jesus from the Bible saying that he did not come to die for our sins and to save us.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2013, 02:22:11 PM »

No Jesus certainly wouldn't contradict himself but the authors of the bible do all the time and especially Paul... so as in the other topics you've proven to me nothing except repeat what you explicitly believe. You only use and concentrate on verses that allegedly prove your point yet all the other verses, stories, events, etc... which contradict what you say or believe you don't give much attention to.
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loco
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« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2013, 02:30:18 PM »

No Jesus certainly wouldn't contradict himself but the authors of the bible do all the time and especially Paul... so as in the other topics you've proven to me nothing except repeat what you explicitly believe. You only use and concentrate on verses that allegedly prove your point yet all the other verses, stories, events, etc... which contradict what you say or believe you don't give much attention to.

Why do you keep bringing Paul into this?  It is Jesus who is quoted in the Bible saying over and over again that he came to die for our sins, that he came to save us.  Are you saying that every single one of the many times that Jesus is quoted saying that he came to die for our sins is not really Jesus saying that?  Why?  Because it disagrees with your religion?    Roll Eyes
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2013, 03:13:11 PM »

No because your premise of the thread was proven wrong by verses in the bible which is a few pages backwards. Not 'my religion' or 'my verses' but verses from the bible which simply and eloquently demonstrate the point no one has to do or be sacrificed for God to forgive anything.

Anyways you're making moot points now Smiley I am a bit busy at work otherwise I'd post away again but it's like throwing stuff at a brick wall that does not hear or see.
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« Reply #61 on: February 11, 2013, 03:38:13 PM »

No because your premise of the thread was proven wrong by verses in the bible which is a few pages backwards. Not 'my religion' or 'my verses' but verses from the bible which simply and eloquently demonstrate the point no one has to do or be sacrificed for God to forgive anything.

Anyways you're making moot points now Smiley I am a bit busy at work otherwise I'd post away again but it's like throwing stuff at a brick wall that does not hear or see.

ahmed, you're akin to a young atheist first being exposed to old anti-Christian arguments.  To you the objections are fresh and exciting and you love to debate these points, but the reality is every objection you've ever raised on this board.....every single one.....is completely outmoded and has already been fully refuted time and time again.  These old objections arise with virtually every generation and every generation lives to debate them as though they've stumbled onto something new, but the objections have long since been resolved.  In fact, every objection is a mere google away from being fully answered and reconciled again and again and again.  I can refer you to website after website, but I can also give you book after book you can also refer to for answers on "difficult bible issues".  Sure, once in a awhile someone like Bart Ehrman will write "Misquoting Jesus" and expose the general the public to topics they aren't familiar with such as textual criticism.  Then you have Daniel Wallace write "Reinventing Jesus" and Ehrman's mentor Bruce Metzger (who stood completely opposed to his protege Ehrman) completely and convincingly refute everything Ehrman presented.  Truth doesn't need to hide, but sometimes the shroud of darkness needs to be lifted from it so others can recognize it clearly.  You're a smart guy, you truly are, but I'm sorry to say ABSOLUTELY nothing you're presenting is fresh or unrefutable....it's just new to you....that's it bro.

I could answer you objections all day long (heck, I already have time and again LOL), but what's the point of me answering or pointing you to the answers of generations before us that are far more complete and eloquent.  You'll just dismiss all of it or twist it to your own end...there's no point anymore in sharing honestly with you....."throwing my pearls to pigs".

  
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #62 on: February 11, 2013, 03:51:58 PM »

Atheist new to old anti christian what? Interesting MOS. It's amusing how you try in different ways to discredit me for ever being a Christian by saying Catholics are not really Christians, then you didn't expect to find out I was also a member of united church of canada which is the protestant church. So now you're classifying me with atheists. Good for you.

I quoted the bible on verses which speak about God forgiving people without any sacrifice or people being killed.

Then how about you guys throw out all the verses that don't go with your views? Besides the bible is an accumulation of books, letters and different versions include or exclude certain books (protestant bible vs catholic bible vs even ethiopian bible), then there's the apocrypha. It's not one narrative from the same author. Hence the divirgences.

It seems you love to copy paste the exact same verses both of you all the time over and over again as if that suddenly makes it legitimate. And the few select verses is what you will ever ever focus on. I notice this pattern with all Christians who try to defend these specific doctrines using elusive or specific verses but totally ignoring all the other stories, events, verses which oppose these beliefs.

Or you will conjure up totally magical explanations for the verses that contradict your views. For example Jesus not knowing things and saying only God knows them, or Jesus being powerless and all power stemming from God alone, etc... as.. oh God was trying to be humble or God was trying to act in his human state, or God gave up his powers while in his human state, etc... Your OWN conjectures and explanations NOT divine at all.

Come on now... it's just silly. You're not out to find or speak the truth, you're out to justify yourselves and what you believe. I took the time to seek the truth out, that's why I said I strongly believed in God it did not falter my faith, but instead strengthened it, but instead of accepting man made lies, I kept searching. I am well aware of all these verses that's why over and over again I bring you the verses you DON'T bring to the discussion as they are from the bible and speak a different belief than what you believe.

Likewise with calling Jesus God. You DESPERATELY post a few skewed alluring verses. YET... we will find HUNDREDS of explicit verses which showcase Jesus being just a prophet, just a messenger, just a human being who is frail and dependant. Instead you focus hundreds of pages of threads on those few ellusive verses and copy paste them, bold them, yet all the other verses.. oh it's just there. It 'speaks' about "god's" human state, the Jesus that is very human, very god all in one.
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a_ahmed
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« Reply #63 on: February 11, 2013, 04:05:09 PM »

“By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.” (John 5:30)

“Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN to me.” (Mathew 28:18)
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« Reply #64 on: February 11, 2013, 05:34:02 PM »

“By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.” (John 5:30)

“Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been GIVEN to me.” (Mathew 28:18)

Why do you keep on trying to derail and spam my thread.  Jesus clearly said many times that he came to die for our sins and to save us.  I thought you respected Jesus.  Are you calling Jesus a liar and a false prophet or what?

Matthew 26:28
This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

John 10:11
I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

John 14:6-8
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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« Reply #65 on: February 11, 2013, 06:09:55 PM »

So you loudly and proudly ignore the verses that disprove what you're trying to prove or contradict what you're preaching. Fantastic. Point proven.

No one ever called Jesus (peace be upon him) a liar, just what you're preaching as twisted lies, conjectures or forgeries. Paul though was a liar and a fraud I did say that. Jesus is free from what you ascribe to him.

You are using the same verses over and over again as if we're ignorant of them, they've been tackled with already many times why are you posting them again and again. I don't have to AGAIN go over them and show you how you're misrepresenting what's even being said.

You selectively pick specific verses and stick to those verses and never ever talk about the 'other' verses that don't suit you.

If we combine it with verses I posted, it illustrates a completely different picture of what Jesus was saying but if we DELIBERATELY ignore the verses I posted, you yourself conjure up what you want and misrepresent Jesus all together to justify what you're preaching and believing.
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« Reply #66 on: February 11, 2013, 06:14:33 PM »

"the devil will cite scripture to suit his own purpose"
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« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2013, 06:20:08 PM »

You know it's funny many many many years ago pretty much just about the time I became Muslim. This one televangelist tried to 'convert me back' started off with him 'knowing this nice egyptian christian family' I'm like okay.. I'm white I'm not Arab (cause he found out about me living in africa, etc... thought that would 'touch me') then started attacking me and preaching to me about Jesus. As if I didn't know about Jesus (peace be upon him). Also kept talking about "I'll debate any of your leaders, like your farakhan". I'm like WHO? LOL later I learned this was some "nation of islam" guy. Not even Muslim. So amusingly enough he started referencing things from the qur'an to prove to me Jesus is God.

He is like does the qur'an not speak of Jesus' miracles? That he healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, brought the dead to life, etc... I am like yeah these miracles are mentioned. He's like HALELUYA, and then how can you not accept the son of God?! JESZZZUUZZZ. He is a local televangelist real deal tv preacher the stereotypical type too. Very excitable about what he believes too.

Like a nut he kept quoting the exact same style of selective verses from the NT that loco is. Never ever bringing up or talking about or plain outright AVOIDING talking about the other verses, events, stories.

And he kept cutting me off before I could correct him. I was still a new muslim but man... I was like but the verses explain right after that he did it by the power of God. He for a second felt awe shocked and continued his verbage trying very hard to not give me a chance to even talk.

Ironically the bible says the same thing that Jesus did these things by the power manifested to him from God. By God's permission and by God's power not of his own.

Likewise with the verses above I posted. But... these people pick and chose the verses they want to CREATE a meaning so that they JUSTIFY their beliefs/doctrines not ascertain the truth in the matter.
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« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2013, 02:30:47 AM »

So you loudly and proudly ignore the verses that disprove what you're trying to prove or contradict what you're preaching. Fantastic. Point proven.

No one ever called Jesus (peace be upon him) a liar, just what you're preaching as twisted lies, conjectures or forgeries. Paul though was a liar and a fraud I did say that. Jesus is free from what you ascribe to him.

You are using the same verses over and over again as if we're ignorant of them, they've been tackled with already many times why are you posting them again and again. I don't have to AGAIN go over them and show you how you're misrepresenting what's even being said.

You selectively pick specific verses and stick to those verses and never ever talk about the 'other' verses that don't suit you.

If we combine it with verses I posted, it illustrates a completely different picture of what Jesus was saying but if we DELIBERATELY ignore the verses I posted, you yourself conjure up what you want and misrepresent Jesus all together to justify what you're preaching and believing.

You have not provided a single Bible verse where Jesus contradicts himself.  Jesus said that he came do die for our sins and to save us.   In which Bible verse did Jesus say the opposite?

You have not shown, not even once, how Christians are misinterpreting Jesus when he says that he came to die for our sins, that he is the only way to the father, that he came to save us, that whoever believes in him will have eternal life.
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« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2013, 05:02:08 AM »

You have not provided a single Bible verse where Jesus contradicts himself.  Jesus said that he came do die for our sins and to save us.   In which Bible verse did Jesus say the opposite?

You have not shown, not even once, how Christians are misinterpreting Jesus when he says that he came to die for our sins, that he is the only way to the father, that he came to save us, that whoever believes in him will have eternal life.

what about the people who came before jesus?

Do christians beleive they will be in hell?
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« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2013, 07:10:17 AM »

what about the people who came before jesus?

Do christians beleive they will be in hell?

Not all:

Genesis 15:6
Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Habakkuk 2:4
Behold, his soul is puffed up, it is not upright in him; but the righteous shall live by his faith.

Matthew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 22:31-32
31 But about the resurrection of the dead—have you not read what God said to you,
32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”
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« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2013, 09:10:49 AM »

"the devil will cite scripture to suit his own purpose"

True, but Jesus Christ cited scripture all the time.  Jesus rarely spoke without citing scripture. 
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« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2013, 09:12:44 AM »

all well and good but I did  not ask him to do this

That's okay.  I did not ask Jesus to die for my sins either, but I am glad and very thankful that he did.
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« Reply #73 on: February 12, 2013, 11:05:23 AM »

lol

"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of one another:" (Q 17:15)

Ezk 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."
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« Reply #74 on: February 12, 2013, 11:50:38 AM »

lol

"No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of one another:" (Q 17:15)

Ezk 18:20 "The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him."

a_ahmed,

Since you brought up Paul and "the wages of sin", and since you quoted Ezekiel 18:20, please tell me:

Is there really any difference between these two verses?  I don't believe so.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death

Ezekiel 18:20
The one who sins is the one who will die.
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