Jesus Christ came to die for, and thus save us from, our sins

[Man of Steel]

a_ahmed??    

Are you quoting Paul's letters to me?    

I rarely quote Paul to Muslims since I know how Muslims feel about Paul.  So I am shocked and puzzled that you've quoted Paul to Christians in order to support your beliefs, not once, but twice that I have noticed.

Anyway, here is the complete passage:

Hebrews 5:1-10
1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.
4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father.”

6 And he says in another place,

“You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek.”
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

More...

Hebrews 7:24-25
24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Exactly, Christ was the "highest" priest on earth and like other high priests he publically prayed on behalf of his church with great passion.  Christ's tears weren't that of dread, but of desperation and love for us.   Hebrews 5:7 doesn’t say that Christ prayed crying and weeping and pleading to be saved from death.  It actually states that Christ prayed to the one (the Father) who could rescue him from death.  God willingly limited the Sonship person of his essence into that of a human man; hence Christ often said that he was sent by the Father...he was.  While limited he was subordindate to the Father due his earthly position and power/scope.  Christ lived as a man (eating, praying, sleeping, sweating, working, crying etc...) as a divine example of how we should submit to God's will in our lives.   Jesus is God despite his human existence and his power and scope being temporarily limited (ex: during his time on earth he did not know the hour of his return).  The Son and the Father are one, but while on earth he yielded and drew strength and power from the Father and in doing so he cried aloud to God the Father for comfort and strength as a man.

An example of why Christ prayed aloud to the Father is exhibited in the raising of Lazarus:

John 11:17-43
17 When Jesus arrived at Bethany, he was told that Lazarus had already been in his grave for four days. 18 Bethany was only a few miles[a] down the road from Jerusalem, 19 and many of the people had come to console Martha and Mary in their loss. 20 When Martha got word that Jesus was coming, she went to meet him. But Mary stayed in the house. 21 Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask.”

23 Jesus told her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24 “Yes,” Martha said, “he will rise when everyone else rises, at the last day.”

25 Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Anyone who believes in me will live, even after dying. 26 Everyone who lives in me and believes in me will never ever die. Do you believe this, Martha?”

27 “Yes, Lord,” she told him. “I have always believed you are the Messiah, the Son of God, the one who has come into the world from God.” 28 Then she returned to Mary. She called Mary aside from the mourners and told her, “The Teacher is here and wants to see you.” 29 So Mary immediately went to him.

30 Jesus had stayed outside the village, at the place where Martha met him. 31 When the people who were at the house consoling Mary saw her leave so hastily, they assumed she was going to Lazarus’s grave to weep. So they followed her there. 32 When Mary arrived and saw Jesus, she fell at his feet and said, “Lord, if only you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33 When Jesus saw her weeping and saw the other people wailing with her, a deep anger welled up within him,[c] and he was deeply troubled. 34 “Where have you put him?” he asked them.

They told him, “Lord, come and see.” 35 Then Jesus wept. 36 The people who were standing nearby said, “See how much he loved him!” 37 But some said, “This man healed a blind man. Couldn’t he have kept Lazarus from dying?”

38 Jesus was still angry as he arrived at the tomb, a cave with a stone rolled across its entrance. 39 “Roll the stone aside,” Jesus told them.

But Martha, the dead man’s sister, protested, “Lord, he has been dead for four days. The smell will be terrible.”

40 Jesus responded, “Didn’t I tell you that you would see God’s glory if you believe?” 41 So they rolled the stone aside. Then Jesus looked up to heaven and said, “Father, thank you for hearing me. 42 You always hear me, but I said it out loud for the sake of all these people standing here, so that they will believe you sent me.” 43 Then Jesus shouted, “Lazarus, come out!”

Others question, "well, why did Christ cry out to God on the cross?  yet another example of Christ crying and pleading to be saved from death!"  

“Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” or “My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?”  In this instance he was quoting Psalm 22 written by the same man from whose line he descended (David) while at the same time indicating the fulfillment of prophecy at the exact time it was occurring.

Psalm 22

1 My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?
    Why are you so far away when I groan for help?
2 Every day I call to you, my God, but you do not answer.
    Every night you hear my voice, but I find no relief.
3 Yet you are holy,
    enthroned on the praises of Israel.
4 Our ancestors trusted in you,
    and you rescued them.
5 They cried out to you and were saved.
    They trusted in you and were never disgraced.
6 But I am a worm and not a man.
    I am scorned and despised by all!
7 Everyone who sees me mocks me.
    They sneer and shake their heads, saying,
8 “Is this the one who relies on the LORD?
    Then let the LORD save him!
If the LORD loves him so much,
    let the LORD rescue him!”
9 Yet you brought me safely from my mother’s womb
    and led me to trust you at my mother’s breast.
10 I was thrust into your arms at my birth.
    You have been my God from the moment I was born.
11 Do not stay so far from me,
    for trouble is near,
    and no one else can help me.
12 My enemies surround me like a herd of bulls;
    fierce bulls of Bashan have hemmed me in!
13 Like lions they open their jaws against me,
    roaring and tearing into their prey.
14 My life is poured out like water,
    and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart is like wax,
    melting within me.
15 My strength has dried up like sunbaked clay.
    My tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth.
    You have laid me in the dust and left me for dead.
16 My enemies surround me like a pack of dogs;
    an evil gang closes in on me.
    They have pierced my hands and feet.
17 I can count all my bones.
    My enemies stare at me and gloat.
18 They divide my garments among themselves
    and throw dice for my clothing.
19 O LORD, do not stay far away!
    You are my strength; come quickly to my aid!
20 Save me from the sword;
    spare my precious life from these dogs.
21 Snatch me from the lion’s jaws
    and from the horns of these wild oxen.
22 I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters.
    I will praise you among your assembled people.
23 Praise the LORD, all you who fear him!
    Honor him, all you descendants of Jacob!
    Show him reverence, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not ignored or belittled the suffering of the needy.
    He has not turned his back on them,
    but has listened to their cries for help.
25 I will praise you in the great assembly.
    I will fulfill my vows in the presence of those who worship you.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied.
    All who seek the LORD will praise him.
    Their hearts will rejoice with everlasting joy.
27 The whole earth will acknowledge the LORD and return to him.
    All the families of the nations will bow down before him.
28 For royal power belongs to the LORD.
    He rules all the nations.
29 Let the rich of the earth feast and worship.
    Bow before him, all who are mortal,
    all whose lives will end as dust.
30 Our children will also serve him.
    Future generations will hear about the wonders of the Lord.
31 His righteous acts will be told to those not yet born.
    They will hear about everything he has done.

[loco]

a_ahmed??    

Are you quoting Paul's letters to me?    

I rarely quote Paul to Muslims since I know how Muslims feel about Paul.  So I am shocked and puzzled that you've quoted Paul to Christians in order to support your beliefs, not once, but twice that I have noticed.

Anyway, here is the complete passage:

Hebrews 5:1-10
1 Every high priest is selected from among the people and is appointed to represent the people in matters related to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins.
2 He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.
3 This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.
4 And no one takes this honor on himself, but he receives it when called by God, just as Aaron was.
5 In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,

“You are my Son;
    today I have become your Father.”

6 And he says in another place,

“You are a priest forever,
    in the order of Melchizedek.”
7 During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.
8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

More...

Hebrews 7:24-25
24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

More...

Hebrews 2:14-17
14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—
15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.
17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.


Hebrews 12:2
fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith. For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Hebrews 13:20
Now may the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep

[Man of Steel]

I rarely quote Paul to Muslims since I know how Muslims feel about Paul.  So I am shocked and puzzled that you've quoted Paul to Christians in order to support your beliefs, not once, but twice that I have noticed.

Yes, for awhile I decided to refrain from quoting from any of Paul's letters because of exactly that, but then I stopped worrying about it because every verse of non-Pauline scripture in the NT is denied also.  

I can remember several months back responding to a verse quoted from the OT used as a defense for a position (verse and topic escape me now).  The verse was correctly stated, but the context and understanding was not correct so I responded as such.  Shortly thereafter I referred to that exact same verse used in the exact same context in support of my position in a different thread and was told by the same person (I'll let you guess who LOL) who had posted that verse in the other thread that the verse was corrupted LOL.  

That said, I've come to the conclusion that I no longer need to be concerned with sharing only "certain scripture" because of my audience....all scripture is meant for every audience.  As we've clearly validated, nothing is accepted by our current Muslim audience so why worry excluding some verses and including others?  Far more folks read this board than just our Muslim audience and at this point it's about sharing with the larger, undecided audience.  Regrettably, our Muslim members have made up their minds.  For me, any additional conversation in that regard is simply about correcting  misrepresentation of Christianity or scripture.

Still, IMHO, the apostle Paul is arguably Christ's greatest advocate, missionary, minister and apologist to ever live.

[loco]

Yes, for awhile I decided to refrain from quoting from any of Paul's letters because of exactly that, but then I stopped worrying about it because every verse of non-Pauline scripture in the NT is denied also.  

I can remember several months back responding to a verse quoted from the OT used as a defense for a position (verse and topic escape me now).  The verse was correctly stated, but the context and understanding was not correct so I responded as such.  Shortly thereafter I referred to that exact same verse used in the exact same context in support of my position in a different thread and was told by the same person (I'll let you guess who LOL) who had posted that verse in the other thread that the verse was corrupted LOL.  

That said, I've come to the conclusion that I no longer need to be concerned with sharing only "certain scripture" because of my audience....all scripture is meant for every audience.  As we've clearly validated, nothing is accepted by our current Muslim audience so why worry excluding some verses and including others?  Far more folks read this board than just our Muslim audience and at this point it's about sharing with the larger, undecided audience.  Regrettably, our Muslim members have made up their minds.  For me, any additional conversation in that regard is simply about correcting  misrepresentation of Christianity or scripture.

Still, IMHO, the apostle Paul is arguably Christ's greatest advocate, missionary, minister and apologist to ever live.

I agree!  Imagine an Orthodox Jew debating a Christian and quoting the Old Testament, and the Christian saying "That part of the Old Testament was corrupted.  The New Testament is the only true and the last revealed word of God."  

[Man of Steel]

I agree!  Imagine an Orthodox Jew debating a Christian and quoting the Old Testament, and the Christian saying "That part of the Old Testament was corrupted.  The New Testament is the only true and the last revelation from God."   

LOL, that's a great point...never thought of that actually. 

IMO, a primary issue is that without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit discernment is missing by nonbelievers; unfortunately, most everyone wants to put the cart before the horse when it comes to proof of God and understanding of scripture.

[Man of Steel]

Okay so on topic here, Jesus is asked to commit suicide and he refuses to die.

Are you trying to imply that Jesus responding is saying he is Lord your God?

Jesus came to die on Calvary's cross....Satan doesn't dictate the terms.    


Certainly, no one else is being tempted other than Jesus.

You didn't respond to this previously and I let it go, but I decided to revisit.  

So, Christ was being tempted by Satan.  And Christ responds to Satan saying, "You must not test the Lord your God."

If Christ wasn't claiming to be God in this instance then what was the purpose of this statement?  What was he saying?

[a_ahmed]

He was quoting the OT not referring to himself. Because people used to say the same thing we'll do such and such and God will save us. So if Jesus listened to satan's 'advice' of committing suicide and then letting God save him if he is truly God's servant, but that would be 'tempting' God just like the examples in OT where people would try to act in such a manner.

Why would God be tempted by his own creation, think for a second and use your brain seriously.

Anyways.

[Man of Steel]

He was quoting the OT not referring to himself. Because people used to say the same thing we'll do such and such and God will save us. So if Jesus listened to satan's 'advice' of committing suicide and then letting God save him if he is truly God's servant, but that would be 'tempting' God just like the examples in OT where people would try to act in such a manner.

Why would God be tempted by his own creation, think for a second and use your brain seriously.

Anyways.

ahmed, you don't need eye-roll smileys with me or constant jabs at my intellect...it's completely unnecessary with me.  We can just talk cause I'm not here to "getcha"!

I'll answer your question completely when I return home this evening.  I've read multiple books that cover this topic as well.....I try and use my brain from time to time.

[a_ahmed]

It's pretty simple how can God be tempted by his own creation to commit a sin? Do you not even think? And God being weak and vulnerable to the devil? Seriously

The context of it is as per old testament 'tempting God' in the sense that you are saying hey I'll kill myself but because I believe in God he will save me. Or something along those lines.

[a_ahmed]

From LUKE:

4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

God hungry? Had nothing? Tempted by devil for 40 days? Wow...

3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendour; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

So if Jesus is 'god', he needs the devil to give him authority Wow...?

8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”

9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you
    to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”

13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.






The devil is OFFERING THE WHOLE WORLD to Jesus if he worships the devil?

Not only are the verses about the 'creation' tempting supposedly 'god' the creation is offering the creation to supposedly 'god'?

I need not say more...

Open your heart and God given intellect and think for a moment.

The 'devil' has opportunity to 'tempt' 'god' and trick 'god' or 'god' hesitates.

no it's quite clear from even these verses Jesus is differentiated from God again and again. The verse of Jesus talking about not tempting the lord is as is in the old testament. He is not refering to himself and come on now all the other highlighted stuff just rock bottoms whatever you were trying to 'allure to'

God gave you intellect, why are you so haughty and arrogant in accepting that which is true and blindly to no avail defending what you blindly believe and try to justify.

Jesus was a mighty servant of God who would not betray his faith in God. God is God.

[Phillip Rhee]

From LUKE:

4 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, 2 where for forty days he was tempted[a] by the devil. He ate nothing during those days, and at the end of them he was hungry.

God hungry? Had nothing? Tempted by devil for 40 days? Wow...

3 The devil said to him, “If you are the Son of God, tell this stone to become bread.”

4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone.’”

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendour; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”

So if Jesus is 'god', he needs the devil to give him authority Wow...?

8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’[c]”

9 The devil led him to Jerusalem and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down from here. 10 For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you
    to guard you carefully;
11 they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[d]”
12 Jesus answered, “It is said: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[e]”

13 When the devil had finished all this tempting, he left him until an opportune time.






The devil is OFFERING THE WHOLE WORLD to Jesus if he worships the devil?

Not only are the verses about the 'creation' tempting supposedly 'god' the creation is offering the creation to supposedly 'god'?

I need not say more...

Open your heart and God given intellect and think for a moment.

The 'devil' has opportunity to 'tempt' 'god' and trick 'god' or 'god' hesitates.

no it's quite clear from even these verses Jesus is differentiated from God again and again. The verse of Jesus talking about not tempting the lord is as is in the old testament. He is not refering to himself and come on now all the other highlighted stuff just rock bottoms whatever you were trying to 'allure to'

God gave you intellect, why are you so haughty and arrogant in accepting that which is true and blindly to no avail defending what you blindly believe and try to justify.

Jesus was a mighty servant of God who would not betray his faith in God. God is God.

Jesus was/is the Son of God, God Himself manifest in the flesh, and not a servant of God. In addition you tell ANOTHER lie when you claim He hesitates. He never hesitated but answered the devil firmly and decisively. So my friend Ahmed you are full of dirty sneaky lies as well as being a recreant (in both senses of the word) who lacks the guts to answer even my simple question but why should I be surprised given that Islam itself is one gargantuan lie? Here it is again then. Answer either 'yes' or 'no' please if you're not too afraid to answer. Ahmed, if I prove to you (and everyone here) that Christianity and the Bible are of the true God and that Islam is nothing but a giant fraud will you renounce Islam and Allah the pagan deity and accept God and His Son Jesus Christ? Are you afraid of answering this question, my dear friend Ahmed?