natural... building muscle in caloric deficit

[Roger Bacon]

I don't believe this bullshit about losing muscle while cutting.  I'm down 24 pounds and much stronger.

Cutting/Bulking is an idiotic concept for natties... Am I wrong?  Am I wrong?

[Big Chiro Flex]

I don't believe this bullshit about losing muscle while cutting.  I'm down 24 pounds and much stronger.

Cutting/Bulking is an idiotic concept for natties... Am I wrong?  Am I wrong?

I fully agree. Your body is more efficient at a sub 10% BF level. I think everything improves, nutrient partitioning, recovery, etc.

Traditional "Bulking/cutting" for natties is dumb IMO.

[supernick]

to a certain point I agree maybe down to 9 % or so...... below that you may start to see some muscle loss

[WOOO]

bulking is for fat people... literally...

[BikiniSlut]

Any science to back this at all? This intrigues me.

[WOOO]

Any science to back this at all? This intrigues me.

a double-blind study would be impossible... too many factors to control

[C-BuZz]

Bulking for natties is fucking stupid. Once you hit your maximum potential which will come within the first year or two lifting, your wasting your time "bulking".

As stated already by Gal, bulking is an excuse fat people use. No need for it at all.

[AVBG]

Getting fat is a waste of time/effort

[dustin]

I fully agree. Your body is more efficient at a sub 10% BF level. I think everything improves, nutrient partitioning, recovery, etc.

Traditional "Bulking/cutting" for natties is dumb IMO.

Agree and fucking wish I knew this way earlier. I remember thinking I was a real swole cat when I was natty, but I just got fat. It doesn't help when you're surrounded by other natural beasts giving you mad props for your 15" fatceps as well... those fuckers. I blame it on them lol

I remember every big cut I did I would get stronger or at least stay really fucking strong despite feeling a bit weaker and agitated (also colder). I thought it was because maybe I psyched myself out or something, but every cut I'm a lot stronger than I think I'll end up. Not that I train for strength anymore. That's also stupid if you're bodybuilding and get to a certain level of strength. But it feels good to pound respectable weight when you're shredding down for sure.

[Roger Bacon]

Any science to back this at all? This intrigues me.

Yes:

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=166557.0







 

[Roger Bacon]

I fully agree. Your body is more efficient at a sub 10% BF level. I think everything improves, nutrient partitioning, recovery, etc.

Traditional "Bulking/cutting" for natties is dumb IMO.

Good to hear, it's difficult because this whole damn thing is really just trial and error I guess, and you never know if you're doing right or wrong and wasting months of time. 

[Roger Bacon]

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=166557.0

[#1 Klaus fan]

I have been trying all I can to lose muscle for a month now. 1300 calories a day and 50 grams of protein. I have not lost muscle or strength at all. Fear of muscle loss is an excuse to eat more shit.

Bulking is stupid, you can gain muscle without gaining fat. Eat maintanance + whatever energy goes into growing muscle and any any energy won't go into fat gain. Nothing is ever this precise in the human body though. Even gaining muscle and losing fat in the same time is possible because they are completely different events in the body. It all boils down to does your body have enough reason/motivation to lose fat and gain muscle in the same time?

[Roger Bacon]

I have been trying all I can to lose muscle for a month now. 1300 calories a day and 50 grams of protein. I have not lost muscle or strength at all. Fear of muscle loss is an excuse to eat more shit.

Bulking is stupid, you can gain muscle without gaining fat. Eat maintanance + whatever energy goes into growing muscle and any any energy won't go into fat gain. Nothing is ever this precise in the human body though. Even gaining muscle and losing fat in the same time is possible because they are completely different events in the body. It all boils down to does your body have enough reason/motivation to lose fat and gain muscle in the same time?

Isn't strength directly related to muscle mass?  

I gained a lot of fat last summer (something like Falcon lol), and I'm almost back in shape now.  I'm cutting hard (lots of cardio and caloric restriction) and I'm stronger now on bench press and squats, and at least as strong on all other exercises than when I started cutting in the beginning of winter.

[dustin]

fuck,this guy managed to grow bitch tits and exclusively fat without touching steroids

You're just a hater. He's swole as fuck.

Check out the striations in the necks region!

(necks, plural)

[Jizzacked]

"bulking" is an awesome way to lose your wind and gain copious amounts of stretchmarks.  wish I learned that before I turned myself into a fluffy piece of stretched taffy back in the day. Now that I am lean and awesome, I still wear the scars of my ignorance.

[arce1988]

  after and before should be before and after

[oldtimer1]

I see it all the time.

 A 200 pound  5'8" guy with 22 percent body fat thinking he looks good. Using his bro science brain looking in the mirror he thinks he's 10 percent fat. He's 44 pounds fat and 156 pound lean.

He wants to gets serious in the gym and through hard work he gets down to 175 pound and he feels small. He looks small in clothes instead of the big perma bulker look he had before. Now he is a true 10% body fat. That's 17.5 pounds of fat and 157.5 pounds lean. 

Through hard work he lost 26.5 pounds of fat while maintaining his muscle even gaining 1.5 pounds of muscle. His appearance is drastically changed.

[Red Hook]

or to put it in even more clear perspective, i never seen anyone who looked better when bulked,even slighty, compared to their leaner selves.

something to think about.

even a very tiny guy whos lean will look more muscular than a permabulker.

their belief that the bloat is anyhting to do with muscle is hillarious, its akin to fat girls claiming they got curves.

^^^ this

when losing weight you will be lose fat and muscle.. but as long as you train for hypertrophy you will maintain and possible add possible muscle as well.  But the lost of fat will be always gives the illusion of being bigger

I am always told that I look bigger when I lean out.  It is not how much weigh but how big you look, body fat percentage in relation to the amount of muscle you carry plays a factor.

For normal work out guys... once you have some visible abs and carry a decent size you always win/impress chicks.

[MCWAY]

I don't believe this bullshit about losing muscle while cutting.  I'm down 24 pounds and much stronger.

Cutting/Bulking is an idiotic concept for natties... Am I wrong?  Am I wrong?

For the most part, YES!

Even steroid users don't put on pure muscle all of the time. Hence, the reason they have the "off-season".

I see it all the time.

 A 200 pound  5'8" guy with 22 percent body fat thinking he looks good. Using his bro science brain looking in the mirror he thinks he's 10 percent fat. He's 44 pounds fat and 156 pound lean.

He wants to gets serious in the gym and through hard work he gets down to 175 pound and he feels small. He looks small in clothes instead of the big perma bulker look he had before. Now he is a true 10% body fat. That's 17.5 pounds of fat and 157.5 pounds lean.  

Through hard work he lost 26.5 pounds of fat while maintaining his muscle even gaining 1.5 pounds of muscle. His appearance is drastically changed.

Say that same guy goes from 200 to 230 in a year and he's at 23% bodyfat. He now has 177 lbs of lean mass, 20 pounds more than he once had.

You don't think he's going to look much better at 230 than 200? If he diets down to 200 and does it gradually, minimizing his muscle loss, and gets to 10% bodyfat. That's about 180 lbs of lean mass.

Suffice it to say that this fellow will be far happier (and thus, more likely to stick with his training), getting results like this vs. slogging away for less than 2 lbs of muscle in a year.

[myosaurus]

increased strength can be attributed to improved insulin sensitivity. initially it is possible to add lean mass while dropping bodyfat.

[MCWAY]

that guy will first look much worse, but when dieted down he will be fine.

when ppl who are above 20% bodyfat ask me what to do first, gain mass or get lean first, i dont know what to tell them.

best to train, eat a diet which will keep you training well and be patient.

i myself would go straight into a calorie crashing diet.but you cant ask newcomers to do that,i know.

Look worse, based on what? Unless he's competing or has a photoshoot, he really has no need to be in the single digits, bodyfat-wise.

You think someone's going to keep training hard and stick with his regime, for a measly 1.5 lbs of muscle, which (at best) makes him go from a twig to a slighty-bigger twig?

While the goal isn't to intentionally put on bodyfat, if you need mass (especially if you're skinny), it's time to quit obsessing about bodyfat and start packing away the groceries.

[MCWAY]

uhm, ok, good luck with that

It's worked quite well for me.

And, it works for ectomorphs, who need size.

[MCWAY]

mcway, hold on, are you saying that a guy will build more muscle if he allows himself to become fatter compared to if he tries to stay same bf level?

so the fastest way would be to eat gallons of icream and 200 gramms protein powder a day and the muscle will come faster than for a guy on same protein but otherwise clean diet?

Ummmm....NO!!

What I said was that for skinnier folks, their priority should be overall size. OF COURSE, you should try to minimize your bodyfat levels. But, as Arnold is credited as saying, "You can't sculpt a pebble; you sculpt a block of granite."

If a young guy puts on 30 lbs in a year and 15-20 of that is muscle, you think he's going to whine about not being "lean"? I don't.

Had I eaten "clean", I may not have ever broken 200 lbs. I didn't eat junk food. I ate high calorie foods: whole eggs, milk, beef, chicken and weight-gainer shakes.

ectomorphs?even they can get fat,seen it before

I know that. I'm an ectomorph myself. That tends to happen as they get older. If I ate the amount of calories I did 17 years ago, I'd look more like a sumo wrestler. But, if I ate then the way I eat now, I'd be lucky if I made it to a buck ninety.

[oldtimer1]

For the most part, YES!

Even steroid users don't put on pure muscle all of the time. Hence, the reason they have the "off-season".

Say that same guy goes from 200 to 230 in a year and he's at 23% bodyfat. He now has 177 lbs of lean mass, 20 pounds more than he once had.

You don't think he's going to look much better at 230 than 200? If he diets down to 200 and does it gradually, minimizing his muscle loss, and gets to 10% bodyfat. That's about 180 lbs of lean mass.

Suffice it to say that this fellow will be far happier (and thus, more likely to stick with his training), getting results like this vs. slogging away for less than 2 lbs of muscle in a year.

What experience trainer or non could gain that much lean body mass? An amazing yearly gain for a guy with a couple of years training experience is maybe 5lbs lean. That's an amazing accomplishment. Now if we are talking about a 5 to 10 year natural trainer that starts training on gear that's a different story.

Guys that bulk up do gain muscle but when they train to get ripped they lose that perma bulker muscle gain. It's best to gain while staying relatively lean.