Author Topic: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?  (Read 8761 times)

OzmO

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #100 on: April 22, 2013, 06:53:36 AM »
Yes.  I said it was very simple, didn't I?  And I am correct on this, based on what we know about History.

Funny how you have to add up all Christians, throughout all of History, in an attempt to remotely compare the murder count to a single one of three individual, atheist leaders of our time.  The murder count of Stalin alone is in the millions.  The murder count of Mao alone is even greater, much greater.  Same goes for Pol Pot.  All three were modern, educated atheist leaders.

The atheist track record isn't impressive.  So atheists need to drop the subject and stop pointing fingers at "fundies."

I don't "have to", I am just being exact here.  Saying more people innocent people died indirectly or directly from leaders who were Christian vs atheists is probably true.  Saying athiest leaders killed more people directly or indirectly than any Christian leader is probably true.  Or maybe not.  Don't know about the pope who ordered the crusades and how many innocent heathens died as a result.  And the issues get real muddled.  How do you define leaders?   Are we talking about a town priest who tortured and killed in the name of god in the 1400,s. what about the Salem which trials? Where they considered Christians?  and then one might argu that the popes weren't Christian.  It can go on and on. 

Atheists on this board as well as Christians, unless they are murderers them selves can and should point their fingers.  Christians should be ashamed as we'll as atheists. Murder is murder. 

tu_holmes

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #101 on: April 22, 2013, 07:13:18 AM »
really I bet alot of the morals you teach your kids coincide with alot of the morals religion teachs as well.

To say that religion doesnt teach morals is ignorant

Just because religion teaches something does not mean that it's where I get my foundation from.

They have nothing to do with each other. People have been saying don't steal and don't kill since the dawn of time. Just because someone wrote it in a book doesn't mean anything.

dario73

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #102 on: April 22, 2013, 07:27:04 AM »
not according to some christians on this board (and in this thread)

they can tell you who the "real" christians are

You and the rest of the "people" that harp on "you are what you say you are" are a bunch of morons.

You are NOT what you say you are.

Your SPIRITUAL FRUITS are proofs of who you really are.

I don't care if Hitler was baptized a million times. His actions showed he never believed with his heart.

You idiots actually believe that a person who commits atrocities should still be considered a Christian just because they say they are or because at one time they were baptized as a Christian? This is why atheists should never comment on spiritual doctrines. None of you nitwits know what you are yapping about.

Look at Obama. Who claims to be a Christian yet is in favor of abortions and homos tying the knot as "married couples". He is far from being a christian.

Again:1 John 3:10
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Mattew 15:8
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mattew 7:16
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.








tu_holmes

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #103 on: April 22, 2013, 07:32:40 AM »
You and the rest of the "people" that harp on "you are what you say you are" are a bunch of morons.

You are NOT what you say you are.

Your SPIRITUAL FRUITS are proofs of who you really are.

I don't care if Hitler was baptized a million times. His actions showed he never believed with his heart.

You idiots actually believe that a person who commits atrocities should still be considered a Christian just because they say they are or because at one time they were baptized as a Christian? This is why atheists should never comment on spiritual doctrines. None of you nitwits know what you are yapping about.

Look at Obama. Who claims to be a Christian yet is in favor of abortions and homos tying the knot as "married couples". He is far from being a christian.

Again:1 John 3:10
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Mattew 15:8
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mattew 7:16
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.









That's a ridiculous statement.

Was the Pope not a Christian when he was ordering the crusades?

OzmO

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #104 on: April 22, 2013, 08:55:08 AM »
Its a pretty convenient position for an argument isn't?

If the person murders someone then he wasn't a "real" christian.

So as the innocent victims totals go up from leaders or people who were Christians, they can go down because of these people weren't "real" Christians

Or because they were the Pope, or because they were a democrat, or because they didn't observed or buy into this particular belief, etc.

Christianity = Religion of Rationalization 

loco

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #105 on: April 22, 2013, 01:20:55 PM »
I don't "have to", I am just being exact here.  Saying more people innocent people died indirectly or directly from leaders who were Christian vs atheists is probably true.  Saying athiest leaders killed more people directly or indirectly than any Christian leader is probably true.  Or maybe not.  Don't know about the pope who ordered the crusades and how many innocent heathens died as a result.  And the issues get real muddled.  How do you define leaders?   Are we talking about a town priest who tortured and killed in the name of god in the 1400,s. what about the Salem which trials? Where they considered Christians?  and then one might argu that the popes weren't Christian.  It can go on and on.  

It's very simple.  Mao Zedong's alone murdered around 43,000,000 innocent people, maybe even more.  He was the leader of his country, a modern, educated, atheist leader.  No need for a "definition" of what is a "leader".  Name one religious leader in history with a murder count anywhere near that.

Funny that you bring up the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Witch Trials, none of which can be attributed to anyone particular individual.  The Crusades were a war between Christians and Muslims, hardly comparable to what Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot did.  Historians put the Crusades casualties at many thousands at the most, the Inquisition at hundreds at the most, and the Witch Trials probably less than one hundred.  There is no comparison.

"It is a law of nature that scientists must bring up the Crusades within five minutes of mention of religion.  In any case, the argument goes, atheists are as ethical as any believer, and religion needn’t be kept about for purely moral reasons. But Gould again argues that this claim misses the historical fact that the Church was a secular and not merely religious institution. When the Church was a powerful state, it, not surprisingly, acted like a powerful state. It is also worth noting that when avowedly atheist governments called the shots their ethical track record was less than awe-inspiring. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are not, so far as I know, in line for sainthood. The point isn’t that godless commies are bad. The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."  - H. Allen Orr is University Professor and Shirley Cox Kearns Professor of Biology at the University of Rochester.
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html

Atheists on this board as well as Christians, unless they are murderers them selves can and should point their fingers.  Christians should be ashamed as we'll as atheists. Murder is murder.  

No.  Murder is murder, and atheists must stop pointing fingers at religion when murder takes place.  Atheists' track record is less than impressive.

Al Doggity

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2013, 01:48:40 PM »
atheism is a belief system just as religion is, it is not filled with doctrine and dogma but youre cannot deny it is a belief system.



How is atheism a belief system? You've posted that it is not filled with doctine, or dogma and doesn't teach morals, so what is atheism's system of beliefs?

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #107 on: April 22, 2013, 01:53:10 PM »
That's a ridiculous statement.

Was the Pope not a Christian when he was ordering the crusades?

Let's not forget that God is in favor of abortions and has given them to his own children. 

You can't argue with someone getting their cues from a fairy tale book.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2013, 01:56:16 PM »
really I bet alot of the morals you teach your kids coincide with alot of the morals religion teachs as well.

To say that religion doesnt teach morals is ignorant

You mean like regarding your wife as property, the same as cattle?  Or sacrificing animals?  Or if you are unhappy with your kids then to just kill them all?   Those kind of morals?

Straw Man

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #109 on: April 22, 2013, 02:21:37 PM »
You and the rest of the "people" that harp on "you are what you say you are" are a bunch of morons.

You are NOT what you say you are.

Your SPIRITUAL FRUITS are proofs of who you really are.

I don't care if Hitler was baptized a million times. His actions showed he never believed with his heart.

You idiots actually believe that a person who commits atrocities should still be considered a Christian just because they say they are or because at one time they were baptized as a Christian? This is why atheists should never comment on spiritual doctrines. None of you nitwits know what you are yapping about.

Look at Obama. Who claims to be a Christian yet is in favor of abortions and homos tying the knot as "married couples". He is far from being a christian.

Again:1 John 3:10
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Mattew 15:8
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mattew 7:16
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

thanks for proving my point
thank the baby jeebus we have real christians like you on this board to help us understand who the real christians are      You gotta admit all those fake christians are sneaky bastards and are giving real christians like you a bad name

blacken700

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #110 on: April 22, 2013, 02:54:50 PM »
You mean like regarding your wife as property, the same as cattle?  Or sacrificing animals?  Or if you are unhappy with your kids then to just kill them all?   Those kind of morals?
thanks for proving my point
thank the baby jeebus we have real christians like you on this board to help us understand who the real christians are      You gotta admit all those fake christians are sneaky bastards and are giving real christians like you a bad name



 :D :D :D :D :D

OzmO

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #111 on: April 22, 2013, 03:04:53 PM »
It's very simple.  Mao Zedong's alone murdered around 43,000,000 innocent people, maybe even more.  He was the leader of his country, a modern, educated, atheist leader.  No need for a "definition" of what is a "leader".  Name one religious leader in history with a murder count anywhere near that.

We both agree on this, nor have i denied it.  I don't know why you seem to feel you have to say essentially the same thing again.  But feel free to do it again if you like.

Quote
Funny that you bring up the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Witch Trials, none of which can be attributed to anyone particular individual.  The Crusades were a war between Christians and Muslims, hardly comparable to what Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot did.  Historians put the Crusades casualties at many thousands at the most, the Inquisition at hundreds at the most, and the Witch Trials probably less than one hundred.  There is no comparison.

Do you actually read what i posted starting with my response to your post pages earlier?

Were these people not Christians who participated in the crusades led by other "Christians" who were sanctioned by the Pope?  Maybe Pope Urban II?  Maybe a Byzantine emperor's (who was Christian) appeal to the Pope to call for a "holy war"  a war that resulted in the 1st crusade? 

Is the Pope the leader of the Church?

Why are you trying to minimize the fact there was leadership in the crusades by dismissing it as a religious war only?

And yes, these other things such as the Salem witch trial ALL had leadership in that the people involved looked to a town elder, judge or mayor or what you, who was also "Christian" who deemed it necessary to burn someone at the stake for suspicion of witch craft. 

Quote
No.  Murder is murder, and atheists must stop pointing fingers at religion when murder takes place.  Atheists' track record is less than impressive.

No they must not stop pointing the finger no more than the other way around.

If you just take the fact that there are far more "Christians" through out history who have committed murder one way or another versus the very small amount of Atheists through out history makes "saved by grace" a pure fucking joke.

loco

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #112 on: April 22, 2013, 03:16:05 PM »
Were these people not Christians who participated in the crusades led by other "Christians" who were sanctioned by the Pope?  Maybe Pope Urban II?  Maybe a Byzantine emperor's (who was Christian) appeal to the Pope to call for a "holy war"  a war that resulted in the 1st crusade? 

Is the Pope the leader of the Church?

Why are you trying to minimize the fact there was leadership in the crusades by dismissing it as a religious war only?

And yes, these other things such as the Salem witch trial ALL had leadership in that the people involved looked to a town elder, judge or mayor or what you, who was also "Christian" who deemed it necessary to burn someone at the stake for suspicion of witch craft. 

So?



OzmO

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Straw Man

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #114 on: April 22, 2013, 03:42:29 PM »
So?

so why not just admit that Christians along with all other people have done some really horrific shit rather than going through all these contortions and rationalizations that just get torn to pieces every time you bring them up


OzmO

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #115 on: April 22, 2013, 04:07:30 PM »
so why not just admit that Christians along with all other people have done some really horrific shit rather than going through all these contortions and rationalizations that just get torn to pieces every time you bring them up



Beucase to do so would open the door to so many other things that perhaps his faith cannot win against.

Christins committ murder just as atheists do.  The difference is Christianity is a religion that survives on rationalizing contradictions. 

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #116 on: April 22, 2013, 04:20:13 PM »
Beucase to do so would open the door to so many other things that perhaps his faith cannot win against.

Christins committ murder just as atheists do.  The difference is Christianity is a religion that survives on rationalizing contradictions


Yep!

The art of cherry picking what you want to follow word by word, or "interpret" those words as "what it really means", in order to support a biased outlook towards those who do not share your viewpoint. 

Skip8282

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #117 on: April 22, 2013, 04:54:33 PM »
You and the rest of the "people" that harp on "you are what you say you are" are a bunch of morons.

You are NOT what you say you are.

Your SPIRITUAL FRUITS are proofs of who you really are.

I don't care if Hitler was baptized a million times. His actions showed he never believed with his heart.

You idiots actually believe that a person who commits atrocities should still be considered a Christian just because they say they are or because at one time they were baptized as a Christian? This is why atheists should never comment on spiritual doctrines. None of you nitwits know what you are yapping about.

Look at Obama. Who claims to be a Christian yet is in favor of abortions and homos tying the knot as "married couples". He is far from being a christian.

Again:1 John 3:10
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Mattew 15:8
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

Mattew 7:16
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.














That's an impossible distinction.  I've had Jehova's Witnesses tell me other faiths are not 'real' Christians.  I've had Orthodox tell me the same. 

And Lutheran's openly welcome gays.  To suggest they are not 'real' Christians is absurd.



Straw Man

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #118 on: April 22, 2013, 05:00:59 PM »
That's an impossible distinction.  I've had Jehova's Witnesses tell me other faiths are not 'real' Christians.  I've had Orthodox tell me the same. 

And Lutheran's openly welcome gays.  To suggest they are not 'real' Christians is absurd.

probably best if all religious folks stop appointing themselves arbiter of who is authentic and who is not

also probably a good idea to stop pretending that people who share your faith (not "yours") can't also do horrible shit from time to time

loco

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #119 on: April 22, 2013, 05:12:50 PM »
so why not just admit that Christians along with all other people have done some really horrific shit rather than going through all these contortions and rationalizations that just get torn to pieces every time you bring them up



Why not just admit that modern, educated, atheist leaders have murdered by far more innocent people than any religious leader who ever lived?

Straw Man

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #120 on: April 22, 2013, 05:16:56 PM »
Why not just admit that modern, educated, atheist leaders have murdered by far more innocent people than any religious leader who ever lived?

because you've shown no proof that it's true and definitely no proof that their actions were due to their atheism

Let me know when you'd like to admit that christians have killed and have done so explicitly due to their religious beliefs

loco

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #121 on: April 22, 2013, 05:21:50 PM »
because you've shown no proof that it's true and definitely no proof that their actions were due to their atheism

Let me know when you'd like to admit that christians have killed and have done so explicitly due to their religious beliefs

What do I have to prove?  You're gonna toss modern history out the window now?    ::)

Name one Christian who has murdered as many innocent people as Stalin, or as Mao, or as Pol Pot.

Straw Man

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #122 on: April 22, 2013, 05:29:00 PM »
What do I have to prove?  You're gonna toss modern history out the window now?    ::)

Name one Christian who has murdered as many innocent people as Stalin, or as Mao, or as Pol Pot.

never said there was one

you've never proven that their alleged atheism was the cause of their actions

why even bother mentioning atheism

they all had being male in common

maybe that was their reason for their actions

what do you think?


LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #123 on: April 22, 2013, 06:15:33 PM »
What do I have to prove?  You're gonna toss modern history out the window now?    ::)

Name one Christian who has murdered as many innocent people as Stalin, or as Mao, or as Pol Pot.

God.

He killed all his children.  Unless of course you are going to claim he wasn't a Christian.

loco

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Re: Ricin terrorist is confirmed to be christian?
« Reply #124 on: April 22, 2013, 06:21:42 PM »
"It is also worth noting that when avowedly atheist governments called the shots their ethical track record was less than awe-inspiring. Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot are not, so far as I know, in line for sainthood. The point isn’t that godless commies are bad. The point is that it is dishonest to pretend that the Crusades count against theism but that Stalin doesn’t count against atheism."  
- H. Allen Orr is University Professor and Shirley Cox Kearns Professor of Biology at the University of Rochester.
http://bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html