Obama is the anti-christ

[OTHstrong]

Besides the gospels themselves, independent historical records of Jesus are scarce.  Two of the three "independent" accounts of Jesus  such as those of Josephus are considered by most non-biased historians to be forgeries or heavily altered much later.  But none of that should matter.

Ptolemies account on Alexander was accused of being a forgery too,  Homer`s Iliad and Odyssey was proved to be a copy of the original since it was written 300 years after the occurrences.

 Every historical document is short of being 100% authentic, that`s the way it works when you are dealing with ancient texts, does not change anything, these are the standards of documentations we have come to accept with all historical figures.

I have no problem if someone does not believe in the historical Jesus as long as he applies the same logic with other historical figures and therefor must also not believe in Alexander the great`s existence either given the same logic.

[tbombz]

Ptolemies account on Alexander was accused of being a forgery too,  Homer`s Iliad and Odyssey was proved to be a copy of the original since it was written 300 years after the occurrences.

 Every historical document is short of being 100% authentic, that`s the way it works when you are dealing with ancient texts, does not change anything, these are the standards of documentations we have come to accept with all historical figures.

I have no problem if someone does not believe in the historical Jesus as long as he applies the same logic with other historical figures and therefor must also not believe in Alexander the great`s existence either given the same logic.

why take issue in any circumstance?if you have a task to accomplish and taking issue helps achieve that task in the most effective and effecient way you know how - ok..    but otherwise? always two sides to see.

[OTHstrong]

why take issue in any circumstance?if you have a task to accomplish and taking issue helps achieve that task in the most effective and effecient way you know how - ok..    but otherwise? always two sides to see.

English please

[King Shizzo]

Ptolemies account on Alexander was accused of being a forgery too,  Homer`s Iliad and Odyssey was proved to be a copy of the original since it was written 300 years after the occurrences.

 Every historical document is short of being 100% authentic, that`s the way it works when you are dealing with ancient texts, does not change anything, these are the standards of documentations we have come to accept with all historical figures.

I have no problem if someone does not believe in the historical Jesus as long as he applies the same logic with other historical figures and therefor must also not believe in Alexander the great`s existence either given the same logic.

That is a great point. That is why I believe all of these men existed. Obviously, you have to take each man's life (as it is written) with some fiction thrown in. Hell, even George Washington is looked at as a godly figure in American history. Imagine Washington's legacy 1,000 years from now.

[Archer77]

Ptolemies account on Alexander was accused of being a forgery too,  Homer`s Iliad and Odyssey was proved to be a copy of the original since it was written 300 years after the occurrences.

 Every historical document is short of being 100% authentic, that`s the way it works when you are dealing with ancient texts, does not change anything, these are the standards of documentations we have come to accept with all historical figures.

I have no problem if someone does not believe in the historical Jesus as long as he applies the same logic with other historical figures and therefor must also not believe in Alexander the great`s existence either given the same logic.

I'm not arguing for the authenticity of any other historical figure. All im saying is, the number of historical documents on jesus are small and they have obvious signs of being tampered with. Someone who is heavily invested in proving the documents as genuine are less likely to see errors and inconsistencies.  

A certain point must be clarified, I've heard the argument about there being more evidence for Jesus than Alexander.  However, this is not exactly correct. How they derive that opinion is based on a bit of mathematical manipulation. Look it up, it's fascinating.  

[DroppingPlates]

What makes someone an 'anti-Christ', only because he/she doesn't believe in Jesus' (historical) existence, or what?

[OTHstrong]

I'm not arguing for the authenticity of any other historical figure. All im saying is, the number of historical documents on jesus are small and they have obvious signs of being tampered with. Someone who is heavily invested in proving the documents as genuine are less likely to see errors and inconsistencies.  

A certain point must be clarified, I've heard the argument about there being more evidence for Jesus than Alexander.  However, this is not exactly correct. How they derive that opinion is based on a bit of mathematical manipulation. Look it up, it's fascinating.  

I will double check everything but outside of Ptolemy there really is almost nothing on Alexander, however, there is a statue and a coin bearing his name as well.

[OTHstrong]

What makes someone an 'anti-Christ', only because he/she doesn't believe in Jesus' (historical) existence, or what?

pretty much but the one Wiggs is referring to is the main anti-Christ spoken of in revelations.

[Archer77]

I will double check everything but outside of Ptolemy there really is almost nothing on Alexander, however, there is a statue and a coin bearing his name as well.

Keep digging.  There is more.  You've got to be careful where youre getting information from.  I'd suggest avoiding sources who already agree with your position. You are likely to find anything of worth there.

[King Shizzo]

I will double check everything but outside of Ptolemy there really is almost nothing on Alexander, however, there is a statue and a coin bearing his name as well.

Many, many coins my friend. Which indicates a ruler with a world-wide currency system. Many things of Alexander were surely exaggerated. However, I believe he was a fantastic military general who conquered much of the known world at the time. How could anyone argue the fighting between his generals after Alexander's death? There were documented dynasties that can be traced back to Alexander's court.

[tbombz]

What makes someone an 'anti-Christ', only because he/she doesn't believe in Jesus' (historical) existence, or what?

it is a character in a story. supposedly a true story - yet to happen. this character is seen as being the nemesis of christ but i think thats a misunderstanding and overly critical analysis. anti christ would be christs yin  to his own yang to some extent in my idea. not a bad perosn, equally devoted to his values as christ, but adamant against martyrdom to the extent of willing armageddon to avoid pre-mature death.

[missile]

The apostles are historical - would you get crucified upside down for Santa Claus?

[Archer77]

The apostles are historical - would you get crucified upside down for Santa Claus?

Would 19 crazy Arabs crash a plane into the World Trade Center for Santa Claus? 

[King Shizzo]

What if guys like Jesus, Moses, etc.... were early christian re-writes of famous Greek and Roman gods. What if the Cristians, like the Muslims etc.... created the "Jesus" character (among others) to make the religion more down to earth? Instead of gods like Zues, Hades Etc........ They wanted a more human approach. Something that the people could relate to.

A poor carpenter.

[Archer77]

What if guys like Jesus, Moses, etc.... were early christian re-writes of famous Greek and Roman gods. What if the Cristians, like the Muslims etc.... created the "Jesus" character (among others) to make the religion more down to earth? Instead of gods like Zues, Hades Etc........ They wanted a more human approach. Something that the people could relate to.

A poor carpenter.

It's very likely Jesus existed.

[King Shizzo]

The apostles are historical - would you get crucified upside down for Santa Claus?

Santa claus is historical too. St. Nicholas was the original inspiration for the Santa story.

[King Shizzo]

It's very likely Jesus existed.

A agree, but we need to explore all options/angles. It is fascinating.

[Archer77]

A agree, but we need to explore all options/angles. It is fascinating.

It is also very possible that much of the Jesus mythology was, to put it mildly, elaborated on by others.

[OTHstrong]

Keep digging.  There is more.  You've got to be careful where youre getting information from.  I'd suggest avoiding sources who already agree with your position. You are likely to find anything of worth there.

I certainly don`t do that. I study history and have so forever. Most documentation is a derivative from Ptolemies work. Who else wrote about him that did not get his info from Ptolemy?  NO ONE, he had no family, they all got killed, it was 300 BC, there was not much writing at the time and the division of the empire when he died scattered the military and the governing bodies. Not much was saved.

Many, many coins my friend. Which indicates a ruler with a world-wide currency system. Many things of Alexander were surely exaggerated. However, I believe he was a fantastic military general who conquered much of the known world at the time. How could anyone argue the fighting between his generals after Alexander's death? There were documented dynasties that can be traced back to Alexander's court.

No there is not though, just Ptolemies dynasty, that`s it. The other territories that trace back to Alexander are gathered information fro Ptolemies work, nothing more.

[King Shizzo]

It is also very possible that much of the Jesus mythology was, to put it mildly, elaborated on by others.

My theory is that Jesus was absolutely real. He was a good man that came around at the perfect point in history. I'm sure that he became immensley popular. Something that Rome would have hated.

Jesus was a martyr. Like Martin Luther King jr. Remember guys, time has a way of making gods of men.  Imagine Mr. King's legacy amongst African Americans in 200, 500, 1,000 years?  

Jesus was the ultimate trendsetter.

[Archer77]

I certainly don`t do that. I study history and have so forever. Most documentation is a derivative from Ptolemies work. Who else wrote about him that did not get his info from Ptolemy?  NO ONE, he had no family, they all got killed, it was 300 BC, there was not much writing at the time and the division of the empire when he died scattered the military and the governing bodies. Not much was saved.

No there is not though, just Ptolemies dynasty, that`s it. The other territories that trace back to Alexander are gathered information fro Ptolemies work, nothing more.

I'm looking at a vast source of documentation on Alexander right now.  But this wasnt the thrust of my point.  My main focus was on the Jesus historical record.

[leadhead]

Several years I might have agreed with you Wiggs but his popularity is declining. He came out of nowhere (like scripture states) but his popularity is turning.

He is a great speaker but is full of empty promises that alot of people who voted for him are seeing through now. Kennedy would be my guess in the last century who could have been the anti-Christ according to scripture.

[OTHstrong]

I'm looking at a vast source of documentation on Alexander right now.  But this wasnt the thrust of my point.  My main focus was on the Jesus historical record.

yes all derivatives of Ptolemies work. Look at the dates, they will not match the ten year period when Alexander reigned, I studied this very thouroughly.

[DanielPaul]

The bible is just a fairy tale with a moral and not meant to be taken literally.

It was written by mere human beings and that's it. It does contain some good rules to live by while others some of it's content is just utter bullshit but that's probably because it was written quite a while ago.

I can't believe people actually believe the stories in there  Jesus is not a historical person, it's just a fictional character just like Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

There is no such thing as an anti-christ, you don't have to fear Obama more than any other president of the US before him. Hope I could comfort some of you 

the bible ,whether you are a Christian or not contain more historical facts than probably any other book written dumb fuck.  Obviously you have never read a verse.

[Archer77]

My theory is that Jesus was absolutely real. He was a good man that came around at the perfect point in history. I'm sure that he became immensley popular. Something that Rome would have hated.

Jesus was a martyr. Like Martin Luther King jr. Remember guys, time has a way of making gods of men.  Imagine Mr. King's legacy amongst African Americans in 200, 500, 1,000 years?  

Jesus was the ultimate trendsetter.

Jesus was a regional phenomenon of very little renown.  During this period the region was overrun with messianic figures from various religous sects of which Jesus was one.   The only threat he posed was to the existing Jewish religious institutions of his day.  To the Romans, he was as significant as an ant.