Ted Cruz tells Trayvons' mother why Stand Your Ground laws are important

[Archer77]

Knowing that any reasonable person would agree that it is a sensible statement, is all I need. (No offense to your sensibilities, Archer)

This isn't an answer.   What you are essentially saying is that anybody who agrees with you is reasonable so by extension what you say is true. Conversely anyone who disagrees must not be reasonable.  I only asked a question.  If you had proof that your statement was true it would inform my opinion

[tonymctones]

Knowing that any reasonable person would agree that it is a sensible statement, is all I need. (No offense to your sensibilities, Archer)

no most reasonable ppl wont, THATS WHY HE WAS FOUND NOT GUILTY YOU MORONIC FUCK!!!!!!

[Shockwave]

Knowing that any reasonable person would agree that it is a sensible statement, is all I need. (No offense to your sensibilities, Archer)

The Zimmerman jury seems to disagree with you.

It seems that whatever YOU believe is what you agree to be sensible. Meaning, you have no proof, and you somehow think your opinion should be enough for people to just accept your outlandish statements, because it "makes sense to you".

It is not.

[RRKore]

no most reasonable ppl wont, THATS WHY HE WAS FOUND NOT GUILTY YOU MORONIC FUCK!!!!!!

Whoa!  Slow your melt, down's syndrome boy:

All-caps, cursing, personal insults, and 6 exclamation points?  Not necessary.  (Also, please call off your jihad against apostrophes.)

[tonymctones]

Whoa!  Slow your melt, down's syndrome boy:

All-caps, cursing, personal insults, and 6 exclamation points?  Not necessary.  (Also, please call off your jihad against apostrophes.)

unless youre bringing something to the conversation, kindly fuck off gimmick

[Straw Man]

The Zimmerman jury seems to disagree with you.

It seems that whatever YOU believe is what you agree to be sensible. Meaning, you have no proof, and you somehow think your opinion should be enough for people to just accept your outlandish statements, because it "makes sense to you".

It is not.

at least one of the juror thought he got away with murder and that there just wasn't enough evidence to convict him

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/31/george-zimmerman-juror-life-was-ruined_n_4183192.html

exactly how many of us believe that OJ Simpson got away with murder

[RRKore]

Proof for this.  Behavioral studies, perhaps?  Crime reports. 

What the hell?  Crime reports and behavioral studies.  Shee-it.  You have video support...or maybe you don't watch MMA?  

I'm not really sure why all this discussion is taking place, really.  The difference in damage (and perceived threat) between punches from an untrained guy on top of a heavier, struggling opponent aren't gonna be much difference than the top guy's aggressive cross-face attempts, elbows, and head-posting while trying to keep position (on top).  All the dude on the bottom knows is that he's taking damage to the head/face.

If the gun wasn't pulled until they were on the ground (a big "if"), then it's reasonable to think it was likely pulled when Trayvon wasn't striking Zimmerman much at the time because:
- It'd be difficult to unholster a weapon while taking blows to the head.  As the bottom guy, it'd be pretty hard to not cover up with both hands/arms if you're taking hard blows to the face.
- It's not easy to keep throwing even halfway-effective punches while maintaining top position when the guy under you is squirming and trying to get up, especially if the bottom guy is heavier.

These facts are moot, though, because even if Trayvon stopped throwing punches for a few seconds (long enough for Zimm to draw his weapon) to post on an arm to re-establish his position or just to posture up and take a few breaths or whatever, it's still reasonable for Zimm to think he's in a life or death situation.  

I think Zimmerman deserves all the blame in the world for being in the position he found himself in when he was under Trayvon, but don't blame him for using his weapon once he was in that position.  Though I hate the message that other wannabe neighborhood watch nerds might take from the outcome of this tragedy, I agree with one of the comments above where it was chalked up to being an anomalous occurrence that isn't nearly worth all the time we've invested in it.

[RRKore]

Guns will cause frantic, aggressive attempts at pinning; while frantic, aggressive attempts at pinning will cause flattened noses and banged heads.

100% true.  Anyone who denies this has not only never wrestled, they also never watched someone like Mark "The Hammer" Coleman in some of his fights in the early days of the UFC (when headbutts were legal).

[RRKore]

unless youre bringing something to the conversation, kindly fuck off gimmick

Truthfully, it's a dumb turn the conversation has taken.  See my comments above.   

(BTW, you've just skipped another opportunity to use an apostrophe.)

[240 is Back]

at least one of the juror thought he got away with murder and that there just wasn't enough evidence to convict him

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/31/george-zimmerman-juror-life-was-ruined_n_4183192.html

exactly how many of us believe that OJ Simpson got away with murder

OJ was acquitted, therefore he did nothing wrong, is 100% innocent and someone else obviously murdered those two.

[RRKore]

OJ was acquitted, therefore he did nothing wrong, is 100% innocent and someone else obviously murdered those two.

S'truth!  God bless America, its legal system, and all the rascist right-tards on GetBig.

[The Showstoppa]

 

[tonymctones]

Truthfully, it's a dumb turn the conversation has taken.  See my comments above.   

(BTW, you've just skipped another opportunity to use an apostrophe.)

completely agree, taken by the person your defending and you seem quite intent on adding to that stupidity

[RRKore]

completely agree, taken by the person your defending and you seem quite intent on adding to that stupidity

I don't care who's arguing the point, really. Who's gonna really get their panties in a bunch over guessing how likely it is to receive head/facial damage while getting pinned, anyway? 

And I only wanted to comment on the thread because I've watched a lot of MMA.  Lots of rules in MMA but guys can still be pretty dirty while seeming to conform to the rules when trying to maintain top control; I like to watch for guys that try to interrupt breathing by covering the bottom guy's mouth (Dan Henderson always does this), chin to the eye-socket used to be popular, and the very common 3 to 4 days' growth of beard and head hair for that sandpaper effect. 

So adding to stupidity?  Naw, adding to someone's MMA knowledge, hopefully.  I couldn't give 2 shits for Trayvon's folks and even less for that huckster with the oh-so-punchable face, Ted Cruz.

[Archer77]

What the hell?  Crime reports and behavioral studies.  Shee-it.  You have video support...or maybe you don't watch MMA?  

I'm not really sure why all this discussion is taking place, really.  The difference in damage (and perceived threat) between punches from an untrained guy on top of a heavier, struggling opponent aren't gonna be much difference than the top guy's aggressive cross-face attempts, elbows, and head-posting while trying to keep position (on top).  All the dude on the bottom knows is that he's taking damage to the head/face.

If the gun wasn't pulled until they were on the ground (a big "if"), then it's reasonable to think it was likely pulled when Trayvon wasn't striking Zimmerman much at the time because:
- It'd be difficult to unholster a weapon while taking blows to the head.  As the bottom guy, it'd be pretty hard to not cover up with both hands/arms if you're taking hard blows to the face.
- It's not easy to keep throwing even halfway-effective punches while maintaining top position when the guy under you is squirming and trying to get up, especially if the bottom guy is heavier.

These facts are moot, though, because even if Trayvon stopped throwing punches for a few seconds (long enough for Zimm to draw his weapon) to post on an arm to re-establish his position or just to posture up and take a few breaths or whatever, it's still reasonable for Zimm to think he's in a life or death situation.  

I think Zimmerman deserves all the blame in the world for being in the position he found himself in when he was under Trayvon, but don't blame him for using his weapon once he was in that position.  Though I hate the message that other wannabe neighborhood watch nerds might take from the outcome of this tragedy, I agree with one of the comments above where it was chalked up to being an anomalous occurrence that isn't nearly worth all the time we've invested in it.

You can't use mma as evidence.  Come on, this is just sad. What a bunch of biased nonsense.   

[RRKore]

You can't use mma as evidence.  Come on, this is just sad. What a bunch of biased nonsense.   

Respectfully (because at least some of your posts are good), Why not?  It's 2 dudes trying to hurt and control each other.

Especially if we're talking about before the gun was pulled.

[tonymctones]

I don't care who's arguing the point, really. Who's gonna really get their panties in a bunch over guessing how likely it is to receive head/facial damage while getting pinned, anyway? 

And I only wanted to comment on the thread because I've watched a lot of MMA.  Lots of rules in MMA but guys can still be pretty dirty while seeming to conform to the rules when trying to maintain top control; I like to watch for guys that try to interrupt breathing by covering the bottom guy's mouth (Dan Henderson always does this), chin to the eye-socket used to be popular, and the very common 3 to 4 days' growth of beard and head hair for that sandpaper effect. 

So adding to stupidity?  Naw, adding to someone's MMA knowledge, hopefully.  I couldn't give 2 shits for Trayvon's folks and even less for that huckster with the oh-so-punchable face, Ted Cruz.

LMFAO sorry hoss, I am a 2 time national judo champ and I can tell you from personal experience that you dont receive those types of injuries from someone just trying to pin you down

[Jack T. Cross]

Which doesn't mean he WAS (attempting to hold) him down.  It only means he might have been.

Yes. Posted in response to Tony's statement:

yes zimmerman was posing imminent bodily harm by ramming his face against trayvons fists and bashing his own head against the ground

[Archer77]

Respectfully (because at least some of your posts are good), Why not?  It's 2 dudes trying to hurt and control each other.

Especially if we're talking about before the gun was pulled.

There aren't guns in MMA.    None of the techniques in MMA are designed for gun defense or applicable to gun defense.   Neither of the two, Martin or Zimmerman, were adequately trained to mma.  And finally, as ground and pound is a very well known aspect of MMA(even by casual viewers) it makes more sense that this was what Martin was attempting to mimic and was not in fact wrestling over a gun-lending support to Goods testimony that it appeared to him that Martin was raining down blows from the top like in mma style fighting.

[RRKore]

LMFAO sorry hoss, I am a 2 time national judo champ and I can tell you from personal experience that you dont receive those types of injuries from someone just trying to pin you down

Really?  What's your real name so we can verify?  Because an "Appeal to authority" argument is worthless if the authority is anonymous.  And I think you're making another false assumption; I'm not trying to say I don't think any (elbow, hand, head) strikes were thrown.  I'm just saying that I don't think any were landing at the time the gun was pulled if the gun was pulled after Zimm was on the ground.   

If by saying, "You don't receive those types of injuries from someone just trying to pin you down" you're saying it's impossible or even very unlikely to receive head/facial injuries from someone maintaining top control of you without throwing strikes, you're flat wrong.  Besides, even in jacket wrestling guys can easily get the kind of superficial facial injuries that Zimmerman was sporting from accidental head contact.  Are you really trying to say that you're a national judo champ but have never seen a mashed nose from accidental headbutts or face-first contact with the mat? 
Judo, huh?  As far as relevancy of judo to the altercation between Zim and Trayvon, can you tell me how long your average judo match lasts after the point when one guy is on his back, mounted by the other guy?  Oh?  Zero seconds after that point? I see.  (And would it really matter?  In judo, the guy on the bottom KNOWS he doesn't need to defend any potential strikes to the head -- way different then MMA or a street fight.)

I think low-level MMA is a good, commonly seen example for those seeking answers for what can commonly result from what happens when 2 people are continuing to fight after one is on his back on the ground.  As far as exactly what happened between Zimm and Trayvon, though, who knows.  Any fight fan knows that all manner of improbable outcomes are possible and do sometimes occur -- that's part of the reason why it's entertaining;  Anything can happen.

[RRKore]

There aren't guns in MMA.    None of the techniques in MMA are designed for gun defense or applicable to gun defense.   Neither of the two, Martin or Zimmerman, were adequately trained to mma.  And finally, as ground and pound is a very well known aspect of MMA(even by casual viewers) it makes more sense that this was what Martin was attempting to mimic and was not in fact wrestling over a gun-lending support to Goods testimony that it appeared to him that Martin was raining down blows from the top like in mma style fighting.

Re; MMA and gun defense, yeah I know.  That's why I added "before the gun was pulled".  No one proved (or maybe even alleged) that the injuries Zim incurred were received after the gun was pulled, right?  And I never said nor thought they were wrestling over a gun.  I doubt Trayvon got much of a chance to see any gun otherwise he'd have likely scampered off like a rabbit.

And I agree with you that it's very, very likely that Trayvon was trying at some point to G&P Zimmerman.  I just think that while covering up with his hands Zimmerman was bucking and maybe even shrimping (he did take some crappy MMA classes and shrimping is usually taught from the beginning) to get out from under Trayvon so that Tray had to stop striking to stay on top and maintain his base and that's when Zimmerman had a chance to stop trying to block strikes with at least one hand so that he could draw and use his handgun.  Or Trayvon could have stopped swinging due to fatigue and the inability to land a clean punch.  Zim was wearing a long-sleeved jacket that night and that's a pretty good thing to wear when you're trying to block punches to the face.  I doubt if Trayvon got more than a couple of even halfway-clean shots on George's face during their little scramble.  

These scenarios seem likely to me.  In MMA, you frequently see where a guy on top trying to administer some G&P has to stop swinging to consolidate his position because the squirmy dude under him is trying to escape often by via upa, shrimping, or turning on his side.  All those actions can unbalance the guy on top to the point where he needs to post on an arm to maintain control.  This makes sense, right?  You don't need to be trained in MMA to be in Trayvon's position.  It's old-fashioned schoolyard bully fighting to him.  Get on top of the other guy and punch him in the face. Ooops, I'm falling sideways so I'll put out my arm to stop from falling off this dude before I can resume slugging him.  

Only thing I think I'm really arguing about with anyone here is that it's POSSIBLE that he Zim could have sustained those injuries from rough grappling alone.  (I don't think that's what happened, but it's possible.)   I mean, fuck, look at the faces/noses/ears of many wrestlers;  They didn't get that way from strikes.  

[Vince G, CSN MFT]

Zimmerman lied about the whole incident......but he'll have to answer to God for it.  Trial is long over with and I don't think this shithead deserves anymore fanfare

[tonymctones]

Really?  What's your real name so we can verify?  Because an "Appeal to authority" argument is worthless if the authority is anonymous.  And I think you're making another false assumption; I'm not trying to say I don't think any (elbow, hand, head) strikes were thrown.  I'm just saying that I don't think any were landing at the time the gun was pulled if the gun was pulled after Zimm was on the ground.  

If by saying, "You don't receive those types of injuries from someone just trying to pin you down" you're saying it's impossible or even very unlikely to receive head/facial injuries from someone maintaining top control of you without throwing strikes, you're flat wrong.  Besides, even in jacket wrestling guys can easily get the kind of superficial facial injuries that Zimmerman was sporting from accidental head contact.  Are you really trying to say that you're a national judo champ but have never seen a mashed nose from accidental headbutts or face-first contact with the mat?  
Judo, huh?  As far as relevancy of judo to the altercation between Zim and Trayvon, can you tell me how long your average judo match lasts after the point when one guy is on his back, mounted by the other guy?  Oh?  Zero seconds after that point? I see.  (And would it really matter?  In judo, the guy on the bottom KNOWS he doesn't need to defend any potential strikes to the head -- way different then MMA or a street fight.)

I think low-level MMA is a good, commonly seen example for those seeking answers for what can commonly result from what happens when 2 people are continuing to fight after one is on his back on the ground.  As far as exactly what happened between Zimm and Trayvon, though, who knows.  Any fight fan knows that all manner of improbable outcomes are possible and do sometimes occur -- that's part of the reason why it's entertaining;  Anything can happen.

its been the cause a few threads and idiots like yourself trying to call me out on it, so go ahead and do a search. I have posted pics and videos of myself on this board so for me to even have to validate the comments of a faceless gimmick such as yourself is beneath me.

In judo matches are 5 minutes a good amount of that can take place on the ground. A person who is being straddled is in judo terms being pinned and the person pinning must hold them down for 25-30 seconds depending on the score prior to the pin taking place.

If the person on the bottom has one of the opponents legs straddled then no pin is taking place and it can go on as long as the ref lets it.

yes but your argument is that no punches were being thrown....

I have seen many injuies and sustained many injuries from judo none of which have occured while someone is being pinned. Ive seen broken ankles, collar bones, arms, even necks...busted noses, gouged eyes, broken fingers and toes etc...none of which while a person is being pinned.

Do you think those injuries are more consistent with someone being pinned or someone being hit repeatedly?

[tonymctones]

Zimmerman lied about the whole incident......but he'll have to answer to God for it.  Trial is long over with and I don't think this shithead deserves anymore fanfare

agreed, same for trayvon, so lets get his mother out of the limelight as well

[RRKore]

its been the cause a few threads and idiots like yourself trying to call me out on it, so go ahead and do a search. I have posted pics and videos of myself on this board so for me to even have to validate the comments of a faceless gimmick such as yourself is beneath me.

In judo matches are 5 minutes a good amount of that can take place on the ground. A person who is being straddled is in judo terms being pinned and the person pinning must hold them down for 25-30 seconds depending on the score prior to the pin taking place.

If the person on the bottom has one of the opponents legs straddled then no pin is taking place and it can go on as long as the ref lets it.

yes but your argument is that no punches were being thrown....

I have seen many injuies and sustained many injuries from judo none of which have occured while someone is being pinned. Ive seen broken ankles, collar bones, arms, even necks...busted noses, gouged eyes, broken fingers and toes etc...none of which while a person is being pinned.

Do you think those injuries are more consistent with someone being pinned or someone being hit repeatedly?

You're the one saying I should take your word for something combat sport related because you are a judo champion so that's why I suggested that you might want to back up a claim that any anonymous clown can easily make.  I'm not a gimmick but I do choose to remain anonymous (becaused I've discussed illegal behavior here) so I'll let my reasoning stand on its own.  

You are correct that there is a little matwork in judo (not zero after a guy is on his back as a result of groundwork, as I mistakenly stated) and, given the relative infrequency of "pinning" (as efforts to put and keep another on his back after both opponents are on the groundO(vs takedowns) it's possible that you've not witnessed facial injuries from that.  So I'm going to assume that the injuries (including ones to the face/head) that you have seen resulted from takedowns, amiright?  What I'd like to know now is whether you seriously think that Zimmerman jumped onto his back on his own (did he pull guard?), or do you think maybe he was taken down?  See where I'm going with this?  If you don't, I can supply all kinds of links of wrestlers suffering injuries in the absence of striking.

Look, I know you have douchey tendencies and all but, really, all I'm trying to point out is that it's POSSIBLE for a guy to sustain the kind of injuries he had from a grappling-only altercation.  Not that it's likely (or, as you put it, more consistent).  Just possible, that's all.  I'd also like to point out that, if the gun wasn't pulled until after Zimm was on his back underneath Trayvon, it was probably pulled when Trayvon was not punching.  Probably, but not definitely so.  Got it?