Author Topic: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim  (Read 71728 times)

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #250 on: December 08, 2013, 09:44:09 PM »
well zimmerman Ill tell it to you like this.

I think he definitely has a case for I felt I was in danger of great bodily harm. Whether that holds up or not, who knows...

Fact of the matter is it wasnt illegal for him to go outside and that has no bearing on the case just like zimmerman following up on trayvon had no bearing on that case.

Btw the cops were still 6 mins away when he shot the man.

16 min reaction time??? fucking really?

and libtards like you want to take away guns from people ::)


I asked a simple Q.   What was Hendrix' reason for shooting?   "I was scared" - Is that it? 

What legal reason for shooting does that fall under?  You wanna call named, bash police response time, talk zimmerman...

But I still don't know why the heck the shoot is legal - He feared for his life?

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #251 on: December 09, 2013, 06:34:45 AM »
The shooting occured at 2:30am, HOWEVER, it was earlier in the day that the elderly man had his encounter with the police officer who suggested he go home because he was dressed inappropriately for the weather.

Not that I'm casting blame on the officer he encountered earlier in the day, ...but if you see an elderly man, shuffling around ON FOOT, not dressed properly for the weather, carrying a bunch of mail, and stating he lived 5 miles away, ...wouldn't that be a bit of a clue that something was askew?

I can recall another guy who encountered police while carrying 2 pieces of mail (in his possessions) belonging to someone else, and he ended up beaten, tasered, and crying for his Daddy before his life was ended, ...but then again, he didn't belong to a certain demographic that gets treated with kindness & courtesy by police officers.

It's too bad Mr. Westbrook was an elderly white middle class man from the suburbs. If he wasn't, the cop he encountered might have done a stop & frisk, detained him and inadvertently saved his life.  :-\

I do not remember exactly which source it was, however, it stated that he was indeed being charged. It was a delayed decision to lay the charges, however, they finally concluded it was appropriate.

The widow has stated she didn't think charges were warranted, however, it was not her call to make.


Quote
Where are you getting this information?  Link?

The encounter with the cop was at 2 a.m., the shooting was around 4 a.m.

Around 2 a.m., the sheriff said a police officer found Westbrook by a mailbox and asked him what he was doing.

Westbrook replied that he was getting his mail. When the officer asked where he lived, the sheriff said Westbrook pointed to a well-lit house at the top of a hill where people were sitting on the porch.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/da-mulls-shooting-alzheimers-patient-enter-home/story?id=21080904

In this same link, it says no charges have been filed.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #252 on: December 09, 2013, 06:36:40 AM »
zimm was getting his ass kicked.

this dude was just pissed off about police taking too long, and the mute man disobeying him.  never took a beatdown lol.

How could he be mute if he had a conversation with a cop two hours before the shooting? 

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #253 on: December 09, 2013, 06:38:14 AM »

I asked a simple Q.   What was Hendrix' reason for shooting?   "I was scared" - Is that it? 

What legal reason for shooting does that fall under?  You wanna call named, bash police response time, talk zimmerman...

But I still don't know why the heck the shoot is legal - He feared for his life?

No one knows what was going through Hendrix's mind at that moment.   Its a mistake to start assuming what someone is feeling because as soon as you do, your mind starts creating a story.   You start with the premise he was scared you get one thing, you start with the premise he was pissed off, you get another.  
A

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #254 on: December 09, 2013, 06:40:00 AM »
nobody said their lives were in danger only that ITS REASONABLE TO BELIEVE THEY WERE!!!
Sweet Jesus, no they wont...what they will have to prove is that a reasonable person in that situation would believe they were in danger and that will be pretty easy to do.




I agree.  It really doesn't make any sense to say a person has to be in actual danger of losing their life before they can use deadly force.  From the Georgia folks:

“In order to use deadly force, you have to reasonably believe you are in imminent danger,” said the Gwinnett County district attorney, Danny Porter. “You weigh whether the homeowner can show he was in fear of receiving death or great bodily injury.” 

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #255 on: December 09, 2013, 06:45:04 AM »
Joe Hendrix was an Iraq war vet.  Sheriff says no question the fiancé was scared when she called 911. 

One Man Lost and Impaired, the Other Fearful and Armed
Bob Miller for The New York Times
By KIM SEVERSON
Published: December 3, 2013

CHICKAMAUGA, Ga. — Deanne Westbrook had tried everything to keep her husband, Ronald, in the house.

He was 72. Alzheimer’s had erased much of his talent for music and flying airplanes.

No one is sure how, in the frigid hours before dawn last Wednesday in this small north Georgia community near the Tennessee border, Mr. Westbrook ended up nearly three miles from home with a handful of other people’s mail, jiggling Joe Hendrix’s doorknob.

Mr. Hendrix, 34, stepped onto his porch with a Glock pistol in his hand and his fiancée inside on the phone with a 911 dispatcher. He fired four shots. One hit Mr. Westbrook in the chest.

On a cold and damp day Tuesday, Mrs. Westbrook buried her husband of 51 years, his death adding another chapter to the debate over the nation’s patchwork of self-defense laws.

“I understand the man who shot him is real upset, and I think he should be,” Mrs. Westbrook said in an interview. “He shot an innocent man. He should have stayed in the house like a normal person would.”

Investigators and a district attorney are weighing whether to charge Mr. Hendrix, a decision that exposes the challenge of balancing the right to use deadly force to defend oneself with the imperfect reality of snap decisions.

Unlike a case last month in Michigan when a white man shot a young black woman on his porch and the closely followed case of Trayvon Martin in Florida last year, this one had no racial overtones. Both men were white.

The legal issue revolves around the question of how scared was Mr. Hendrix — a young man who had just moved into the quiet neighborhood with his fiancée — in those early hours.

According to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and Sheriff Steve Wilson of Walker County, a sheriff’s deputy first encountered Mr. Westbrook about 2:30 a.m. the day he died.

In the confusion that comes from Alzheimer’s, Mr. Westbrook had taken to collecting the mail from neighbors’ mailboxes. He was doing so that night on Marbletop Road, which is a mile or so from his home. He told the deputy he lived in a nearby house, which at one time, years ago, he had.

“Better get home,” the deputy said. “It’s cold.”

The deputy drove on, and Mr. Westbrook, in a straw hat and a jacket too light for the weather, continued walking with his dogs.

Just before 4 a.m., he was nearly three miles from home in the subdivision of modest new houses where Mr. Hendrix lives, near Chattanooga.

Mr. Hendrix, a veteran of the Iraq war who last year served as the spokesman for a Republican candidate for Congress from Tennessee, Scottie Mayfield, did not return calls seeking an interview.

At least twice, Mr. Westbrook climbed onto the small porch, tried to open the door and rang the doorbell, Sheriff Wilson said. Dogs were barking. The police were called.

The sheriff and Mr. Westbrook had played together in their church’s orchestra. Mr. Westbrook had been a skilled trumpet player, retired from the Air Force as a lieutenant colonel.

Sheriff Wilson said he wished Mr. Hendrix had just stayed inside. But he knows it was a tense situation.

“When you listen to the 911 calls, it’s evident to me that there was fear displayed at least by the female who lived there,” he said.

As Mr. Westbrook came around a corner of the house, Mr. Hendrix took his gun and repeatedly called for him to identify himself, he told the police. Then he fired the shots. Mr. Hendrix told investigators that Mr. Westbrook continued to approach him, so he fired the shot into his chest.

Deputies were six minutes away.

“When we sat down and told him the age of the victim and the diagnosis, he broke down and became emotional,” Sheriff Wilson said.

Within two weeks, investigators will meet with Herbert Franklin, the district attorney, to decide if Mr. Hendrix will face charges.

Mr. Franklin is already weighing another so-called Stand Your Ground case. Earlier in November, a 69-year-old man in neighboring Catoosa County came home to find two teenagers trying to break into his house. He shot one in the neck, a 17-year-old boy who died at the hospital.

In both cases, Mr. Franklin will be guided by what legal experts call the “reasonable person” standard as outlined in the state’s 2006 self-defense law.

“In order to use deadly force, you have to reasonably believe you are in imminent danger,” said the Gwinnett County district attorney, Danny Porter. “You weigh whether the homeowner can show he was in fear of receiving death or great bodily injury.”

Nearly two dozen states have some version of a Stand Your Ground law, and their popularity continues to grow. The Ohio House of Representatives last month approved a bill that, like many, would remove the need for a person to retreat before using deadly force in self-defense.

Georgia’s Stand Your Ground law was recently challenged by the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition, whose leader, the Rev. Jesse Jackson, came to the state in early November to announce a lawsuit against Gov. Nathan Deal and the state attorney general.

Citing two recent cases, Mr. Jackson argued that the state’s law was being unequally applied to whites and blacks.

 Mr. Westbrook’s death shows the continuing controversy over the law, even here in a part of the country where gun ownership is treated as a cherished right.

Chris Brown, 50, who lives down the street from the Westbrooks, supports Stand Your Ground laws. He is well-armed and not afraid to pull out a gun if someone broke into his home or tried to steal his truck.

“But if he’s out in my yard and I’ve done called the cops, I’m waiting for the cops,” he said. “What that guy did wasn’t Stand Your Ground.”

Mr. Westbrook’s widow herself is not sure that Mr. Hendrix should be charged.

“I don’t know what his mind-set was, and I don’t know enough about the law to know,” Mrs. Westbrook said. “But that’s all over now. His life is already taken. He took the life of a real gentle man, and it’s a crying shame.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/04/us/one-man-lost-and-impaired-the-other-fearful-and-armed.html?_r=0 


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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #256 on: December 09, 2013, 06:51:26 AM »
So the reason Hendrix bought a gun is because someone had threatened his fiancé just a few weeks before the shooting.

An incident in mid-November may have set the stage for the fatal error. Shortly after Hendrix's fiancee moved into her new rental home, a man appeared at the door just before midnight on Nov. 19. He pounded on the door while Hendrix's fiancee was alone with two children, and he demanded to see someone whom Hendrix's fiancee did not know, Davis said.

She called Hendrix, who was in nearby Chattanooga, Tenn., who told her to call 911. By the time sheriff's deputies and Hendrix arrived, the man was gone. Davis said what happened was documented in a police report.

Afterward, Hendrix took a Glock handgun that he kept in his apartment and brought it to his fiancee's home.


Also, Westbrook tried to open the door twice:

Wilson said barking dogs woke up Hendrix and his fiancee in her home sometime before 4 a.m. Westbrook had walked to their house, the last in a cul-de-sac. He rang the doorbell, knocked on the door and tried the handle. In what may have been a startling move, Westbrook left the front of the home and moved out of view.

The woman called 911, and Hendrix got his gun.

While the woman was on the phone with a dispatcher, Westbrook returned to the door a second time, Wilson said.


And Hendrix didn't just come out guns blazing:

Hendrix left the house and found Westbrook outside in the dark. He told police that Westbrook ignored commands to stop, identify himself and raise his hands. The sheriff said Westbrook approached Hendrix, who fired four shots.

"Obviously, in hindsight, it's very easy to say, 'Why didn't you stay inside? Why didn't you keep the door shut?'" Davis said. "But the reality is, how long are you supposed to wait until somebody comes through your door? And had the person come through his door with his fiancee there, then what would have happened?"


http://bigstory.ap.org/article/suffering-alzheimers-ga-man-fatally-shot

Overall, after reading more stories about the case, I'm more convinced Hendrix acted reasonably.  But I suspect the prosecutor might present this to a grand jury.  Would be disappointing if he is indicted and/or prosecuted. 

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #257 on: December 09, 2013, 07:39:32 AM »
thats what the debate is about Oz, what youve said specifically is that if a person is not in real danger then they cant defend themself...WHICH IS COMPLETELY FALSE!!!!!

If a reasonable person in his situation would have felt they were in danger of great bodily injury it doesnt matter if they guy wasnt trying to B&E or that he didnt have a weapon. If thats the case the DA will say he acted like a reasonable person would in that situation and no charges will be filled.

he did not know the old guy wasnt armed and was not trying to b&e, youre taking facts discovered after the fact and trying to apply them to how he acted before they were known

Ok i get what you are saying and how the reasonable person principle is applied here. 

However, it still comes down to fact that he left the safety of his house when there wasn't a forced entry or a known weapon involved and then shot the guy. 

Quote
“In order to use deadly force, you have to reasonably believe you are in imminent danger,” said the Gwinnett County district attorney, Danny Porter. “You weigh whether the homeowner can show he was in fear of receiving death or great bodily injury.”

blacken700

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #258 on: December 09, 2013, 07:43:18 AM »
Mr. Westbrook’s death shows the continuing controversy over the law, even here in a part of the country where gun ownership is treated as a cherished right.

Chris Brown, 50, who lives down the street from the Westbrooks, supports Stand Your Ground laws. He is well-armed and not afraid to pull out a gun if someone broke into his home or tried to steal his truck.

“But if he’s out in my yard and I’ve done called the cops, I’m waiting for the cops,” he said. “What that guy did wasn’t Stand Your Ground.”


exactly,what he did was take the law into his own hands,no question about it

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #259 on: December 09, 2013, 08:33:42 AM »

"Obviously, in hindsight, it's very easy to say, 'Why didn't you stay inside? Why didn't you keep the door shut?'" Davis said. "But the reality is, how long are you supposed to wait until somebody comes through your door? And had the person come through his door with his fiancee there, then what would have happened?"[/i]
 


Who ever is trying to come in, is also knocking on the door and NOT trying to force entry.  You are supposed to wait until the police arrive and if they don't make it there in time shot the guy as he "breaks" in, which he wasn't doing anyway.   

what you don't do is go outside......further risking yourself and potentially leaving your family defenseless or even worse yet shoot a 73 year old mute unarmed man with Alzheimers.   

Guy is a fucking idiot who now will have to live with himself the rest of life, knowing that going outside was one of the dumbest a person could have made.

Jack T. Cross

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #260 on: December 09, 2013, 08:43:43 AM »
God bless the wife. I feel just terrible for her. If she insisted on trying to carry on some home life with her husband, though, (and bless her for wanting that), she should have had a signal fitted to the door, particularly for any nighttime events.

Obviously, the idea of someone taking the man as a threat, especially at night, should have occurred to Westbrook's loved ones.

Still, would like to know more about Hendrix, and would like to hear explanations for the inconsistencies.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #261 on: December 09, 2013, 08:55:44 AM »
Oh brother... he was a newbie with the gun, that makes it even worse.

He's only owned it a few weeks.. was the this the first time he fired it? 

Sounds like he took all this OLD stuff (true or not, who knows), about her getting threatened, someone knocking and leaving previously, and someone jiggling the door - And he transferred it all to this Veteran.

"We were scared" = why you fired without seeing what you were shooting at.  Cool.  Glad he admitted it.  Good luck with things now.  I dont see how they don't charge him.   To me, the ACTUAL threat is where the other 3 bullets landed.  You have this half-cocked, agitated, "scared yet still opens the door and leaves safety to run into the darkness firing" dude sending stray shots into a residential neighborhood.

Would anyone here want to live next door to Hendrix?  LOL keep defending this half-wit, gun-newbie coward who didn't have the brains to stay inside nor the judgment to hold fire.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #262 on: December 09, 2013, 09:22:23 AM »
I see reports that Westbrook was mute, while seeing reports that a cop says the man told him he was getting his mail.

Sounds like the "reporters" need to tighten their game.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #263 on: December 09, 2013, 09:23:48 AM »

Who ever is trying to come in, is also knocking on the door and NOT trying to force entry.  You are supposed to wait until the police arrive and if they don't make it there in time shot the guy as he "breaks" in, which he wasn't doing anyway.   

what you don't do is go outside......further risking yourself and potentially leaving your family defenseless or even worse yet shoot a 73 year old mute unarmed man with Alzheimers.   

Guy is a fucking idiot who now will have to live with himself the rest of life, knowing that going outside was one of the dumbest a person could have made.

Who said you are "supposed to wait until police arrive"?  I don't think that's what the law requires.  

You wouldn't go outside.  That doesn't mean that is the "reasonable person" standard.  I'm not sure what I would do.  I might go outside too if someone had previously come to my house and threatened my wife, then a couple weeks later a stranger shows up at 4 a.m. and twice tries to open my front door, and the police don't immediately arrive.  

Pretty easy to be a MMQB.  Much harder to make decisions in real time.  

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #264 on: December 09, 2013, 09:25:37 AM »
Oh brother... he was a newbie with the gun, that makes it even worse.

He's only owned it a few weeks.. was the this the first time he fired it? 

Sounds like he took all this OLD stuff (true or not, who knows), about her getting threatened, someone knocking and leaving previously, and someone jiggling the door - And he transferred it all to this Veteran.

"We were scared" = why you fired without seeing what you were shooting at.  Cool.  Glad he admitted it.  Good luck with things now.  I dont see how they don't charge him.   To me, the ACTUAL threat is where the other 3 bullets landed.  You have this half-cocked, agitated, "scared yet still opens the door and leaves safety to run into the darkness firing" dude sending stray shots into a residential neighborhood.

Would anyone here want to live next door to Hendrix?  LOL keep defending this half-wit, gun-newbie coward who didn't have the brains to stay inside nor the judgment to hold fire.

No, he was not a "newbie with a gun."  He's an Iraq war vet. 

And no, he was not "mute."  He talked to the police just a couple hours before he was shot.

Tell the truth for a change. 

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #265 on: December 09, 2013, 09:26:14 AM »
I see reports that Westbrook was mute, while seeing reports that a cop says the man told him he was getting his mail.

Sounds like the "reporters" need to tighten their game.

He obviously wasn't mute. 

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #266 on: December 09, 2013, 09:26:34 AM »
Who said you are "supposed to wait until police arrive"?  I don't think that's what the law requires.  

Going outside nullifies him being scared for his life while he was inside.  If you're pissing your pants in fear, you don't open that door.  

Now he has to prove he feared for his life once he opened the door.  Seeing a silhouette that won't answer... does that suffice?  I don't think so, but maybe he'll get a friendly jury.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #267 on: December 09, 2013, 09:28:07 AM »
Going outside nullifies him being scared for his life while he was inside.  If you're pissing your pants in fear, you don't open that door.  

Now he has to prove he feared for his life once he opened the door.  Seeing a silhouette that won't answer... does that suffice?  I don't think so, but maybe he'll get a friendly jury.

No, he doesn't have to prove he "feared for his life."  Tell the truth for a change.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #268 on: December 09, 2013, 09:33:38 AM »
No, he doesn't have to prove he "feared for his life."  Tell the truth for a change.

Then PLEASE explain what his legal defense will be for the shooting.  Nobody seems to be able to state that clearly.  If it's not "feared for life", then what is it?

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #269 on: December 09, 2013, 09:35:23 AM »
He obviously wasn't mute. 

How did you come to this conclusion?

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #270 on: December 09, 2013, 09:43:02 AM »
How did you come to this conclusion?
 
read he was almost mute

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #271 on: December 09, 2013, 09:43:54 AM »
Seems to be a couple different stories about the cop's interaction with Westbrook. I wonder how that could be.

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #272 on: December 09, 2013, 09:44:47 AM »
they will charge him,you have to,to send a message to these gun nuts

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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #273 on: December 09, 2013, 09:46:11 AM »
they will charge him,you have to,to send a message to these gun nuts

Why?  They aren't the ones most likely to commit a crime using a gun.   How would sending them a message result is less street crime?
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Re: Stand Your Ground Law's Latest Victim
« Reply #274 on: December 09, 2013, 09:48:39 AM »
Then PLEASE explain what his legal defense will be for the shooting.  Nobody seems to be able to state that clearly.  If it's not "feared for life", then what is it?

It has been posted about ten times in this thread:

“In order to use deadly force, you have to reasonably believe you are in imminent danger,” said the Gwinnett County district attorney, Danny Porter. “You weigh whether the homeowner can show he was in fear of receiving death or great bodily injury.”