i'm questioning the theory of long low dose cycles over short high dose cycles

[OTHstrong]

When I get to the point where I am getting fatter but not bigger on 500mg of test with paleo diet and weekly cheat, what would be the next best path?
Is it as simple as keeping the test at 500mg and adding 200mg of deca? or would it be best to keep the test low and say 400 deca?

My suggestion would be to keep a maintains dose that allows you to be within 10% of your all time best physique then just dose harder for a short period when its time to break the plateau, then cruse again and repeat, of course combine compounds is key and always switch and experiment what gives the best results. remember its a marathon not a sprint.

I would go high on both 

[OTHstrong]

doses aren't everything.

high dose + not enough kcals = lean, hard, grainy physique... though not huge, but still impressive

low dose + enough/more than enough kcals = large, full physique... impressive in a different way

high dose + enough/more than enough kcals = when you're firing on all 8 cylinders.. large, grainy, lean.

everything's gotta be in line.

take it from me... I have unlimited access to all the goodies, but my food/diet/kcals/macros suck.. so I don't have the super-freaky size you'd expect from a guy who uses what I use. I do however have a different 'quality' that the androgens give.... luckily for me, my body tolerates the drugs very well.

ya good post, its time to put this myth away of all hormones and make it seem like food is not important, a heavy cycle without food means jack shit, food plays a huge role and getbig got away from this for a time but not me.

[POB]

Blast and cruise, always keep the body guessing.

[SmallPole]

Blast and cruise, always keep the body guessing.

yeeaaah, that's why i personally like to rip off the labels on my vials... then i just forget what's what, load up 5 ml of different shit in various proportions into the syringe and keep my body guessing to no end !

[macos]

yeeaaah, that's why i personally like to rip off the labels on my vials... then i just forget what's what, load up 5 ml of different shit in various proportions into the syringe and keep my body guessing to no end !

Hear of the shocking principle of Arnold to make your body grow. You have taken it to heart it seems

[oni]

My suggestion would be to keep a maintains dose that allows you to be within 10% of your all time best physique then just dose harder for a short period when its time to break the plateau, then cruse again and repeat, of course combine compounds is key and always switch and experiment what gives the best results. remember its a marathon not a sprint.

I would go high on both 

Yeah this seems logical. Maintaining is far easier than gaining, that's for sure. 500mg of test can probably maintain a pretty big and shredded physique. I don't plan on competing in BB so really all I want is muscle mass and low body fat

[latiuss]

250mg test same as 250mg tren? Lol yeah good one gal.

[anabolichalo]

250mg test same as 250mg tren? Lol yeah good one gal.

please speak on how to interpret statements such as

"tren is 5 times more anabolic than test, gram per gram"


how does this apply in real life bodybuilding

[latiuss]

please speak on how to interpret statements such as

"tren is 5 times more anabolic than test, gram per gram"


how does this apply in real life bodybuilding

You would gain more muscle off less calories with tren vs test.

[no one]

doses aren't everything.

high dose + not enough kcals = lean, hard, grainy physique... though not huge, but still impressive

low dose + enough/more than enough kcals = large, full physique... impressive in a different way

high dose + enough/more than enough kcals = when you're firing on all 8 cylinders.. large, grainy, lean.

everything's gotta be in line.

take it from me... I have unlimited access to all the goodies, but my food/diet/kcals/macros suck.. so I don't have the super-freaky size you'd expect from a guy who uses what I use. I do however have a different 'quality' that the androgens give.... luckily for me, my body tolerates the drugs very well.

imo it has nothing to do with your diet. its 100% genetic response to anabolics/ peptides, and creating an environment that primes the body for growth.

i am making the best gains of my life right now on 125 grams of protein a day. 150 on some days but i seldom get more than that. i am bigger than i ever have been, and as lean. would taking in 250 grams of protein make me bigger? no. i took in 250-300 grams of protein RELIGIOUSLY for years, and im running LESS gear than when i was when i was taking in a very high protein diet. actually im taking in comparatively 1/2 as many caloires than i have used to get the size that i am building upon. this 'should not' be possible, given what we've been 'taught' or 'told'.

the only variable that has changed that i feel is generating these gains is my training frequency- i train my whole body 3x a week. this is where the growth comes from. i think if i was still blindly following the whole myth of over training (hahah gimme a fucking break) and only training my whole body once a eek i wouldnt be experiencing the growth i am. the 'need' for protein has been over exaggerated for years.

[Big Chiro Flex]

imo it has nothing to do with your diet. its 100% genetic response to anabolics/ peptides, and creating an environment that primes the body for growth.

i am making the best gains of my life right now on 125 grams of protein a day. 150 on some days but i seldom get more than that. i am bigger than i ever have been, and as lean. would taking in 250 grams of protein make me bigger? no. i took in 250-300 grams of protein RELIGIOUSLY for years, and im running LESS gear than when i was when i was taking in a very high protein diet. actually im taking in comparatively 1/2 as many caloires than i have used to get the size that i am building upon. this 'should not' be possible, given what we've been 'taught' or 'told'.

the only variable that has changed that i feel is generating these gains is my training frequency- i train my whole body 3x a week. this is where the growth comes from. i think if i was still blindly following the whole myth of over training (hahah gimme a fucking break) and only training my whole body once a eek i wouldnt be experiencing the growth i am. the 'need' for protein has been over exaggerated for years.

Bro can you give a quick example of how you hit everything 3x a week?

[almard]

imo it has nothing to do with your diet. its 100% genetic response to anabolics/ peptides, and creating an environment that primes the body for growth.

i am making the best gains of my life right now on 125 grams of protein a day. 150 on some days but i seldom get more than that. i am bigger than i ever have been, and as lean. would taking in 250 grams of protein make me bigger? no. i took in 250-300 grams of protein RELIGIOUSLY for years, and im running LESS gear than when i was when i was taking in a very high protein diet. actually im taking in comparatively 1/2 as many caloires than i have used to get the size that i am building upon. this 'should not' be possible, given what we've been 'taught' or 'told'.

the only variable that has changed that i feel is generating these gains is my training frequency- i train my whole body 3x a week. this is where the growth comes from. i think if i was still blindly following the whole myth of over training (hahah gimme a fucking break) and only training my whole body once a eek i wouldnt be experiencing the growth i am. the 'need' for protein has been over exaggerated for years.



No one?

May I ask what AAs or doses you are taking about.

I always had my best gains when I shock the body. Different diet, training ....ect

[no one]

Bro can you give a quick example of how you hit everything 3x a week?

ya dude. the split is

back/ shoulders (great combo most guys do chest shoulders you want crazy upper back/ rear delt thickness start hitting this)
chest/ arms/ legs

i'll hit this rotation 3x the 7th day is a rest day if i dont feel like resting i'll train.

typically each body part is only trained 20min. i go set to set to set with no rest so i can pound out a lot of sets in 20 min and im typically hitting muscular exhaustion (decreased workload)by this point. decreased workload is a good gauge for me as typically my strength doesnt drop between sets and when it starts its time to pick a new exercise or go home. i dont count sets or reps everything is instinctual.

it sounds like a lot of volume and it is. but the body will adapt. its remarkably adaptive. once it adapts to the volume and frequency thats where the growth is.

[no one]

ya bro i used to run 2g cycles all the time. my favourite being 7 and 7- 700mg tren ace/700mg prop and an oral of my liking typically anavar.

all this year i never went over 750mg of combined aa's. at the same time i trpiled my workout frequency. my gains have been better than when i was using 2g cycles, stuffing myself all the time and only training my whole body once a week.

this month i have bumped it up to 1600mg combined im in week 4 right now of this experiment ive got 4 left. my cals are only 1600 a day, some days low as 1000. protein is maybe 125-150 like i said. and im growing like a fucking weed over here.

honestly i say its all in the increased frequency of my sessions. upping the dose and not giving the body the stimulus necessary to repair and grow will get you no results. the body will utilise what little cals you give it efficiently. would i be making these gains on the same amount of anabolics, the same cals, and only training everything once a week. no. i dont think so. i did that for years and got nowhere.

the guys here know me. they know i dont bullshit or inflate the truth. i have no vested interest in saying anything like this other than to help you guys get gaining. up the frequency of your sessions. get your body used to the volume. it'll take porlly a good 3-4 weeks. once your get it adapting up your dose and watch the growth. typically even if you up the dose results appear to be very marginal. thats cause the workload isnt there. i honestly think guys could make as much in the way of gains by cutting their doses down, and increasing their workload. you want to make crazy gains, up the dose and the workload.  you dont even need to up it a lot- i less than doubled what i was running this year, but am still well under the 2g mark i normally ran, and i can promise you im bigger and better condidtioned than most guys running nosebleed digits. and imo i have shit genetics.

[Christo]

ya dude. the split is

back/ shoulders (great combo most guys do chest shoulders you want crazy upper back/ rear delt thickness start hitting this)
chest/ arms/ legs

i'll hit this rotation 3x the 7th day is a rest day if i dont feel like resting i'll train.

typically each body part is only trained 20min. i go set to set to set with no rest so i can pound out a lot of sets in 20 min and im typically hitting muscular exhaustion (decreased workload)by this point. decreased workload is a good gauge for me as typically my strength doesnt drop between sets and when it starts its time to pick a new exercise or go home. i dont count sets or reps everything is instinctual.

it sounds like a lot of volume and it is. but the body will adapt. its remarkably adaptive. once it adapts to the volume and frequency thats where the growth is.

But for my understanding: you do for example schoulders with 3 different exercises a lot of sets without counting the reps during 20 minutes?

So you are 20 minutes not resting? and you do 3 exercises after each other or one by one?

[oni]

ya bro i used to run 2g cycles all the time. my favourite being 7 and 7- 700mg tren ace/700mg prop and an oral of my liking typically anavar.

all this year i never went over 750mg of combined aa's. at the same time i trpiled my workout frequency. my gains have been better than when i was using 2g cycles, stuffing myself all the time and only training my whole body once a week.

this month i have bumped it up to 1600mg combined im in week 4 right now of this experiment ive got 4 left. my cals are only 1600 a day, some days low as 1000. protein is maybe 125-150 like i said. and im growing like a fucking weed over here.

honestly i say its all in the increased frequency of my sessions. upping the dose and not giving the body the stimulus necessary to repair and grow will get you no results. the body will utilise what little cals you give it efficiently. would i be making these gains on the same amount of anabolics, the same cals, and only training everything once a week. no. i dont think so. i did that for years and got nowhere.

the guys here know me. they know i dont bullshit or inflate the truth. i have no vested interest in saying anything like this other than to help you guys get gaining. up the frequency of your sessions. get your body used to the volume. it'll take porlly a good 3-4 weeks. once your get it adapting up your dose and watch the growth. typically even if you up the dose results appear to be very marginal. thats cause the workload isnt there. i honestly think guys could make as much in the way of gains by cutting their doses down, and increasing their workload. you want to make crazy gains, up the dose and the workload.  you dont even need to up it a lot- i less than doubled what i was running this year, but am still well under the 2g mark i normally ran, and i can promise you im bigger and better condidtioned than most guys running nosebleed digits. and imo i have shit genetics.

Before steroids existed, this is how people trained. They mainly did full body sessions and trained most days going very heavy. This is how I train and I got brutally strong incredibly fast on a shitty low protein high carb diet. I think that if I got my diet more on track and did more volume and reps, "mind muscle connection" I'd grow pretty well based on the strength gains I get alone. I stick to 1-4 reps though, many sets and low rest. Just a personal anecdote, might be completely incorrect and talking out my ass. But simply switching to keto got my body weight up 5kg and I look leaner and my deadlift went up 15kg in 3 months. As I dial shit in further the results are even better

[anabolichalo]

Before steroids existed, this is how people trained. They mainly did full body sessions and trained most days going very heavy. This is how I train and I got brutally strong incredibly fast on a shitty low protein high carb diet. I think that if I got my diet more on track and did more volume and reps, "mind muscle connection" I'd grow pretty well based on the strength gains I get alone. I stick to 1-4 reps though, many sets and low rest. Just a personal anecdote, might be completely incorrect and talking out my ass. But simply switching to keto got my body weight up 5kg and I look leaner and my deadlift went up 15kg in 3 months. As I dial shit in further the results are even better

before steroids existed there were no impressive physiques

[dj181]

ya dude. the split is

back/ shoulders (great combo most guys do chest shoulders you want crazy upper back/ rear delt thickness start hitting this)
chest/ arms/ legs

i'll hit this rotation 3x the 7th day is a rest day if i dont feel like resting i'll train.

typically each body part is only trained 20min. i go set to set to set with no rest so i can pound out a lot of sets in 20 min and im typically hitting muscular exhaustion (decreased workload)by this point. decreased workload is a good gauge for me as typically my strength doesnt drop between sets and when it starts its time to pick a new exercise or go home. i dont count sets or reps everything is instinctual.

it sounds like a lot of volume and it is. but the body will adapt. its remarkably adaptive. once it adapts to the volume and frequency thats where the growth is.

how in the hell do you joints handle that workload dude?

i'd get sore elbows and shoulders if i did that, in fact i get some elbows and shoulders when i train each bodypart twice a week

so are you saying that muscle gains are based on fatigue and not on load?

[no one]

But for my understanding: you do for example schoulders with 3 different exercises a lot of sets without counting the reps during 20 minutes?

So you are 20 minutes not resting? and you do 3 exercises after each other or one by one?

this is my shoulder workout.

dbell shoulder press 8reps rest 5 seconds 8 reps rest 5 seconds 8 reps

side laterals same way

rear delts same way

front raise same way

repeat cycle 2-3 times.

[no one]

Before steroids existed, this is how people trained. They mainly did full body sessions and trained most days going very heavy. This is how I train and I got brutally strong incredibly fast on a shitty low protein high carb diet. I think that if I got my diet more on track and did more volume and reps, "mind muscle connection" I'd grow pretty well based on the strength gains I get alone. I stick to 1-4 reps though, many sets and low rest. Just a personal anecdote, might be completely incorrect and talking out my ass. But simply switching to keto got my body weight up 5kg and I look leaner and my deadlift went up 15kg in 3 months. As I dial shit in further the results are even better

I find it entirely believable keto promoted those gains.

too many people focus on what they are 'supposed to do' instead of finding out what works for them.

[no one]

how in the hell do you joints handle that workload dude?

i'd get sore elbows and shoulders if i did that, in fact i get some elbows and shoulders when i train each bodypart twice a week

so are you saying that muscle gains are based on fatigue and not on load?

then you have to examine why your getting sore joints.  imo your either using too much weight, or doing exercises that are causing you discomfort. ie 3 sets of skullcrushers fuck my elbows for a week. so I don't do them.

what I'm saying is what I wrote in my posts. I can't make it any clearer. take from it what you will.

[Dago_Joe]

before steroids existed there were no impressive physiques

 

[oni]

Greek and Roman statues look pretty good
Just sayin
Depends what you mean by "impressive"

[chess315]

maybe this will help to undrstand:

-bigro 1gr weekly

-cswole 5g+ weekly

-groink 500mg weekly

-noone between 250-750weekly

-gal : natty

-ukjeff : i dont talk about this weekly

-esfitness up to 6gr weekly

-bostin loid allegedly 13gr of bunk=3gramms weekly

-flintstone 19 year old since a decade and natural,never juiced weekly

-sev: depending of peace of mind, between nothing and 200mg dbol daily

the only ones whos dosage on there i really think may be accurate is efs possibly cswole but i really think he is more of a 1-3 gram guy just bullshiting

[macos]

imo it has nothing to do with your diet. its 100% genetic response to anabolics/ peptides, and creating an environment that primes the body for growth.

i am making the best gains of my life right now on 125 grams of protein a day. 150 on some days but i seldom get more than that. i am bigger than i ever have been, and as lean. would taking in 250 grams of protein make me bigger? no. i took in 250-300 grams of protein RELIGIOUSLY for years, and im running LESS gear than when i was when i was taking in a very high protein diet. actually im taking in comparatively 1/2 as many caloires than i have used to get the size that i am building upon. this 'should not' be possible, given what we've been 'taught' or 'told'.

the only variable that has changed that i feel is generating these gains is my training frequency- i train my whole body 3x a week. this is where the growth comes from. i think if i was still blindly following the whole myth of over training (hahah gimme a fucking break) and only training my whole body once a eek i wouldnt be experiencing the growth i am. the 'need' for protein has been over exaggerated for years.

ESF is right on spot there talking about diet and aas ratio and the effect.

Any guy can be a freak. Even the worsr generics will respond amazingly to grams of gear and peptides. Genetics is only an excuse when you do not know what to do to make yourself better than what you were.
You need intense training+ quality nutrition+ adequate rest+ the correct enhancers to make progress. If you have stalled lately, stop being a pussy blaming genetics and re-evaluate where possibly you are going wrong and what adjustments you need to make to achieve your goal.