Author Topic: GOP’s “religious liberty” scam just died: Why Brewer’s veto is so momentous  (Read 4182 times)

George Whorewell

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SOURCE: NY Post

http://nypost.com/2014/02/28/the-truth-about-arizonas-proposed-anti-gay-law/

By Rich Lowry

It was jarring to read the coverage of the new “anti-gay bill” passed by the Arizona Legislature and then look up the text of the notorious SB 1062.
The bill was roughly 998 pages shorter than much of legislation that passes in Washington. Clocking in at barely two pages, it was easy to scan for disparaging references to homosexuality, for veiled references to homosexuality, for any references to homosexuality at all.
They weren’t there. A headline from The Week declared, “There is nothing Christian about Arizona’s anti-gay bill.” It’d be more accurate to say that there was nothing anti-gay about Arizona’s anti-gay bill.

The legislation consisted of minor clarifications of the state’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which has been on the books for 15 years and is modeled on the federal act that passed with big bipartisan majorities in the 1990s and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton.
Arizona was going to lose the Super Bowl over this? Maybe so. Gov. Jan Brewer took no chances and vetoed it. The bill was the subject of a truly awe-inspiring tsunami of poorly informed indignation.

For The New York Times editorial board, the bill was “A License to Discriminate.” It constituted “the legalizing of anti-gay prejudice,” according to a piece in US News & World Report. It was, Salon scoffed, “cartoonishly bigoted.” A reference to Jim Crow was obligatory in any discussion of the bill on cable TV.

If you’ll excuse a brief break from the hysteria to dwell on the text of the doomed bill, it stipulated that the word “person” in the law applies to businesses and that the protections of the law apply whether or not the government is directly a party to a proceeding (e.g., a lawsuit brought on anti-discrimination grounds).

Eleven legal experts on religious-freedom statutes — who represent a variety of views on gay marriage — wrote a letter to Gov. Brewer prior to her veto explaining how, in addition to the federal government, 18 states have such statutes.
The letter argues that, properly interpreted, the federal law that inspired the Arizona statute covers cases that don’t directly involve the government and covers businesses. So Arizona’s changes were in keeping with a law once championed by none other than Sen. Ted Kennedy.
A religious-freedom statute doesn’t give anyone carte blanche to do whatever he wants in the name of religion. It simply allows him to make his case in court that a law or a lawsuit substantially burdens his religion and that there is no compelling governmental interest to justify the burden.
For critics of the Arizona bill, the substance was almost an afterthought. They recoiled at the very idea that someone might have moral objections to homosexuality or gay marriage.


The cases that have come up relevant to the Arizona debate involve small-business people declining to provide their services to gay couples at their marriage ceremonies. A New Mexico photographer won’t take pictures. A Washington state florist won’t arrange flowers. An Oregon bakery won’t bake a wedding cake.

It’s easy to see how offensive these decisions were to the gay couples involved. But the market has a ready solution: There are other bakers, photographers and florists. The wedding business is not exactly bristling with hostility to gay people. If one baker won’t make a cake for gay weddings, the baker across town can hang a shingle welcoming all couples for all types of weddings.

This is how a pluralistic society would handle such disputes. Instead, in the cases mentioned above, the gay couples reported the businesses to the authorities for punishment. The critics of the much-maligned Arizona bill pride themselves on their live-and-let-live open-mindedness, but they are highly moralistic in their support of gay marriage, judgmental of those who oppose it and tolerant of only one point of view on the issue — their own.
For them, someone else’s conscience is only a speed bump on the road to progress.

chadstallion

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SOURCE: NY Post

http://nypost.com/2014/02/28/the-truth-about-arizonas-proposed-anti-gay-law/

By Rich Lowry

It was jarring to read the coverage of the new “anti-gay bill” passed by the Arizona Legislature and then look up the text of the notorious SB 1062.
The bill was roughly 998 pages shorter than much of legislation that passes in Washington. Clocking in at barely two pages, it was easy to scan for disparaging references to homosexuality, for veiled references to homosexuality, for any references to homosexuality at all.
They weren’t there. A headline from The Week declared, “There is nothing Christian about Arizona’s anti-gay bill.” It’d be more accurate to say that there was nothing anti-gay about Arizona’s anti-gay bill.

The legislation consisted of minor clarifications of the state’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which has been on the books for 15 years and is modeled on the federal act that passed with big bipartisan majorities in the 1990s and was signed into law by President Bill Clinton.
Arizona was going to lose the Super Bowl over this? Maybe so. Gov. Jan Brewer took no chances and vetoed it. The bill was the subject of a truly awe-inspiring tsunami of poorly informed indignation.

For The New York Times editorial board, the bill was “A License to Discriminate.” It constituted “the legalizing of anti-gay prejudice,” according to a piece in US News & World Report. It was, Salon scoffed, “cartoonishly bigoted.” A reference to Jim Crow was obligatory in any discussion of the bill on cable TV.

If you’ll excuse a brief break from the hysteria to dwell on the text of the doomed bill, it stipulated that the word “person” in the law applies to businesses and that the protections of the law apply whether or not the government is directly a party to a proceeding (e.g., a lawsuit brought on anti-discrimination grounds).

Eleven legal experts on religious-freedom statutes — who represent a variety of views on gay marriage — wrote a letter to Gov. Brewer prior to her veto explaining how, in addition to the federal government, 18 states have such statutes.
The letter argues that, properly interpreted, the federal law that inspired the Arizona statute covers cases that don’t directly involve the government and covers businesses. So Arizona’s changes were in keeping with a law once championed by none other than Sen. Ted Kennedy.
A religious-freedom statute doesn’t give anyone carte blanche to do whatever he wants in the name of religion. It simply allows him to make his case in court that a law or a lawsuit substantially burdens his religion and that there is no compelling governmental interest to justify the burden.
For critics of the Arizona bill, the substance was almost an afterthought. They recoiled at the very idea that someone might have moral objections to homosexuality or gay marriage.


The cases that have come up relevant to the Arizona debate involve small-business people declining to provide their services to gay couples at their marriage ceremonies. A New Mexico photographer won’t take pictures. A Washington state florist won’t arrange flowers. An Oregon bakery won’t bake a wedding cake.

It’s easy to see how offensive these decisions were to the gay couples involved. But the market has a ready solution: There are other bakers, photographers and florists. The wedding business is not exactly bristling with hostility to gay people. If one baker won’t make a cake for gay weddings, the baker across town can hang a shingle welcoming all couples for all types of weddings.

This is how a pluralistic society would handle such disputes. Instead, in the cases mentioned above, the gay couples reported the businesses to the authorities for punishment. The critics of the much-maligned Arizona bill pride themselves on their live-and-let-live open-mindedness, but they are highly moralistic in their support of gay marriage, judgmental of those who oppose it and tolerant of only one point of view on the issue — their own.
For them, someone else’s conscience is only a speed bump on the road to progress.
bingo!
and if it were a black str8 couple the baker could deny them, too. the bible and deeply religious beliefs have had blacks be less worthy than whitey. same goes for the muslims and mexkins.
w

StreetSoldier4U

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bingo!
and if it were a black str8 couple the baker could deny them, too. the bible and deeply religious beliefs have had blacks be less worthy than whitey. same goes for the muslims and mexkins.

Being black in and of itself is not condemned by biblical scripture while homosexuality is or at least the vast majority of Christians believe it is.  As I said before, denying to bake a birthday cake for a gay couple wouldn't be scripturally defensible because there is a nominal association between a birthday cake and homosexuality.  On the other hand baking a cake specifically for a gay wedding would be against scripture because the baked cake itself would be directly associated with the promotion of a lifestyle that was against the bakers religion.

George Whorewell

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bingo!
and if it were a black str8 couple the baker could deny them, too. the bible and deeply religious beliefs have had blacks be less worthy than whitey. same goes for the muslims and mexkins.

Really? Can you cite any specific examples? Or was the above quotation concocted out of thin air to rationalize your feigned outrage over what is a non discriminatory law? 

blacken700

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Lol people leting a comic book run their lives

RRKore

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If you're looking for a counterpoint to the Rich Lowry (editor of conservative mag The National Review) article that appeared in the Rupert Murdoch-owned newspaper The New York Post that defended proposed Arizona law SB 1062, ya might want to read this (please note that I took the liberty to bold sections that directly relate to Lowry's article):

Arizona's anti-gay bill shows why conservatives struggle to win over minorities

Jan Brewer's veto of an anti-gay bill was a good start. But it's not enough.

It's a sweet coincidence that Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer vetoed her state's bill protecting Jim Crow-style discrimination against LGBT Americans at the end of Black History Month. The legislators who pushed the bill are in many ways segregation's modern heirs, and their defeat was richly deserved.

But even the well-meaning conservatives who supported the bill out of a sincere concern for religious liberty should take notice of the timing. The defenses of S.B. 1062 revealed a profound conservative blindspot about power and identity in American life, one animated by their fantasy of a race-blind and sexual orientation-less world. Unless these conservatives learn from Brewer's veto, and start building a worldview that acknowledges people's real identities, conservatism will remain utterly unappealing to the vast majority of racial and sexual minorities.

The Arizona bill would have amended the state's Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA), a law designed to protect the freedom of churches and explicitly religious institutions. The new RFRA would have allowed all individuals and businesses (not just religious ones) to run their organization in accordance with any "practice and observance" of their faith unless the government can show a "compelling government interest" in shutting them down.

That sounds innocuous enough until you remember that there's no state or federal law defining the protection of equal rights for LGBT Americans as a compelling interest. So long as anti-gay store owners cite religious reasons for kicking gay clients out of their stores, they'd have had a powerful legal tool for defending their actions. And the discriminated-against clients wouldn't have a great legal counterweight.

"There is absolutely nothing in the act that would preclude a bed store from arguing that selling beds to same-sex couples violates its religious beliefs because it facilitates sinful conduct," Carolina Mala Corbin, a University of Miami law professor, told MSNBC's Adam Serwer. You can see why that might trouble LGBT people who live in states where large numbers of people — many of whom surely operate businesses — believe them to be hell-bound sinners.

That's something of a moot point in Arizona now. But there's an interesting tic in the conservative defenses of the law, something that tells us a lot about the future of this debate. Many of them mention, as if it was some kind of trump card, the idea that the bills don't explicitly mention sexual orientation.

"There's no mention of sexual orientation (or any other class or category)," the Cato Institute's Ilya Shapiro writes. "The proposed legislation never even mentions same-sex couples," pleads the Heritage Foundation's Ryan T. Anderson. National Review's editor, Rich Lowry, took it the furthest:

Clocking in at barely two pages, it was easy to scan for disparaging references to homosexuality, for veiled references to homosexuality, for any references to homosexuality at all. They weren't there…there was nothing anti-gay about Arizona’s anti-gay bill.

The point is wholly absurd. The problem with these laws isn't that they explicitly condemn LGBT Americans; it's that they permit bigots to act out their bigotry with the force of the state at their back. Poll taxes and literacy tests didn't need to mention black people in the text of the bill to have the desired effects either.


In a world where a full third of Americans think "society should not accept homosexuality" — a figure that's likely higher in Arizona and other states where these bills could plausibly pass — permission for businesses to discriminate could make life miserable for gay folks.

This ignorant objection from the bill's defenders neatly encapsulates everything that's wrong with the conservative-libertarian approach to the Arizona bill. When you live in a society marked by deeply rooted discrimination, a facially neutral government is taking the bigots' side.

There's an enormous gulf in social power in this country. Conservative Christians are a much larger group, and wield far more social and financial capital than gays do. LGBT folks, by contrast, have a long history of being brutalized by overt discrimination — and the scars to prove it.

Let me put it another way. After the passage of the federal Civil Rights Act, you didn't see hordes of vindictive black folks forcing white-hooded caterers to work their weddings and baptisms. Rather, the law gave blacks a way to dismantle Jim Crow, both in its legal and private sector incarnations. Protecting the power of businesses to discriminate doesn't protect an individual right to conscience. It protects the right to enact that conscience on members of a socially marginalized group.

Not every defender of the Arizona bill is blind to this point. In a Bloggingheads segment I encourage you all to watch, Cato's Jason Kuznicki argues that there's an important asymmetry between racial discrimination in 1964 and anti-gay discrimination today: The gays are winning. While Jim Crow racism wasn't going anywhere on its own in 1964, the broad trend toward acceptance of equal LGBT rights is at this point irreversible. There's no need to infringe on religious liberty to protect rights that will shortly be self-enforcing.

Kuznicki is right to celebrate America (and the world's) extraordinary progress on sexual and gender tolerance. But it's a bit strange to say that today's gays should suffer through discrimination now because tomorrow's will have to deal with less of it.

Perhaps more fundamentally, I'm less sanguine than Kuznicki that anti-gay discrimination will disappear anymore than racism has. Subtle anti-black prejudices today permeate housing, employment, and other critical sectors. This is the legacy of deeply ingrained anti-black beliefs. There's good social scientific evidence that LGBT anti-discrimination protections are needed to counteract the same thing.

And while race has certainly been far more central to American politics and social life than sexual orientation, anti-LGBT discrimination has been a hallmark of Western societies for over a millennia. "The most fundamental" problem with studying gay life, writes eminent Yale historian John Boswell, "is the fact that the longevity of prejudice against gay people and their sexuality has resulted in the deliberate falsification of historical records concerning them." His book starts around the time that Christianity took over the Roman Empire.

So when Shapiro writes that the core of the issue is that "private individuals should be able to make their own decisions on whom to do business with and how — on religious or any other grounds," he couldn't be more wrong. Anti-gay prejudice permeates the private sphere, and constitutes historically deep and systematic discrimination of the sort not easily dispelled absent rigorous government oversight.

But to really integrate that insight into conservative and libertarian thought would be to admit that blackness and gayness are fundamental identities that people have, shaped both by historical discrimination and proud self-labeling. Conservatives would rather pretend that these categories are withering away rather than here to stay.

Don't take my word for it. Here's conservative Kevin Williamson, witness for the prosecution:

We are closing in on the end of Black History Month, and National Review has not exactly been inundated by copy relating to the occasion.

Conservatives are not big on viewing human beings as racial aggregates. We are capitalists who see people as buyers and sellers, investors and entrepreneurs in a marketplace that cares more about returns than race; we are constitutionalists who believe that we are equal individuals under the law; we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. [National Review]

The idea that making people "equal individuals under law" may require accepting the legitimacy of black and LGBT identity escapes Williamson (unsurprisingly) and, really, most of the conservative movement. It's like the Stephen Colbert joke about how he "doesn't see color," only for real.

It's not just historical oppression that should make us take minority identity seriously. It's that black and LGBT individuals take pride in their identity, seeing their group membership as a source of valuable tradition and support. Ignoring identity in law, or worse, stripping it away, isn't empowering. It's oppressive and atomizing.

Until conservatives understand that point, they'll have trouble developing a policy message that's capable of even remotely appealing to members of these groups. The process starts by seeing Jan Brewer's veto not as a defeat for human freedom, but as step toward its triumph.


http://theweek.com/article/index/257057/arizonas-anti-gay-bill-shows-why-conservatives-struggle-to-win-over-minorities

Dos Equis

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bingo!
and if it were a black str8 couple the baker could deny them, too. the bible and deeply religious beliefs have had blacks be less worthy than whitey. same goes for the muslims and mexkins.

Which part?

dario73

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Which part?

This ought to be good.

I want to see what verse, USED OUT OF CONTEXT, will people who never read the bible and hate Christianity point to this time.

blacken700

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dario73

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This ought to be good.

I want to see what verse, USED OUT OF CONTEXT, will people who never read the bible and hate Christianity point to this time.

Still waiting for the verse.

Book, chapter, verse and context.  That is all it takes.

RRKore

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Still waiting for the verse.

Book, chapter, verse and context.  That is all it takes.

Interesting bible discussion you and BB would like to have, lol.

Tell me, does the bible condemn slavery?

Truth is, the bible is so full of jumbled shit it can be used to justify almost any point of view. 

Fer fuck's sake, I'm skeptical about using any sort of instructions about anything that's more than a few years old and yet you simple-minded myth-believers are gonna use some text that's thousands of years old that's been thrown together from quite few different sources (many of which are anonymous) as your be-all end-all explanation for being and the primary source of your morality?  Wake up, idiots!

Dos Equis

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Interesting bible discussion you and BB would like to have, lol.

Tell me, does the bible condemn slavery?

Truth is, the bible is so full of jumbled shit it can be used to justify almost any point of view. 

Fer fuck's sake, I'm skeptical about using any sort of instructions about anything that's more than a few years old and yet you simple-minded myth-believers are gonna use some text that's thousands of years old that's been thrown together from quite few different sources (many of which are anonymous) as your be-all end-all explanation for being and the primary source of your morality?  Wake up, idiots!

What chadstallion said was the Bible "had blacks be less worthy than whitey. same goes for the muslims and mexkins." 

Do you agree?  If so, which part of the Bible is he (or are you) talking about?

blacken700

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headhuntersix

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Yup...I hate black, latinos the gays and especially them JEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Merica love it or leave it.
L

RRKore

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What chadstallion said was the Bible "had blacks be less worthy than whitey. same goes for the muslims and mexkins." 

Do you agree?  If so, which part of the Bible is he (or are you) talking about?

First off, since I'm not a dishonorable turd (lol), I'll try to answer even though I admit don't know much about the bible.

First, though, let's define terms: What is your interpretation of what Chad meant by "whitey"?  Cuz I'm pretty sure that the term "whitey" was not included in the bible.  

Which could open up a can of worms (that I'll ignore for this argument's sake) in that none of the bible was originally written in English, was it?


Dos Equis

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First off, since I'm not a dishonorable turd (lol), I'll try to answer even though I admit don't know much about the bible.

First, though, let's define terms: What is your interpretation of what Chad meant by "whitey"?  Cuz I'm pretty sure that the term "whitey" was not included in the bible.  

Which could open up a can of worms (that I'll ignore for this argument's sake) in that none of the bible was originally written in English, was it?



I assume "whitey" means white people. 

RRKore

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Yup...I hate black, latinos the gays and especially them JEWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Merica love it or leave it.

Hells yeah! 

Your post could use the song and video below, though:

StreetSoldier4U

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I assume "whitey" means white people. 

That would be the only legitimate answer.

RRKore

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I assume "whitey" means white people. 

Well, that's the end of that discussion, then. 

I don't think the Bible clearly defines "race" (defined as having a certain set of physical characteristics) like we do. 

So, Chad would seem to be technically wrong.

chadstallion

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oh for heaven's sake.
go to google screen.
cut and paste this:

preachers who support slavery in the bible

then pick and choose which post you find interesting.
w

Dos Equis

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oh for heaven's sake.
go to google screen.
cut and paste this:

preachers who support slavery in the bible

then pick and choose which post you find interesting.


Ok.  I did.  Looked at two articles (USA Today and CNN).  Still doesn't answer the question.  You said this:  "the bible and deeply religious beliefs have had blacks be less worthy than whitey. same goes for the muslims and mexkins."

Which part of the Bible says "blacks be less worth than whitey," and "muslims and mexkins"? 

StreetSoldier4U

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Ok.  I did.  Looked at two articles (USA Today and CNN).  Still doesn't answer the question.  You said this:  "the bible and deeply religious beliefs have had blacks be less worthy than whitey. same goes for the muslims and mexkins."

Which part of the Bible says "blacks be less worth than whitey," and "muslims and mexkins"? 

He's making a tenuous association between believing in the bible and racial prejudice as if one equals the other.  A person who claims to be Christian can be a bigot but that doesn't mean he is a bigot because of his religion. 


As an aside, they recently publicly hung several homosexual men in Iran.  I think this puts things in perspective a bit.

Dos Equis

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He's making a tenuous association between believing in the bible and racial prejudice as if one equals the other.  A person who claims to be Christian can be a bigot but that doesn't mean he is a bigot because of his religion. 


As an aside, they recently publicly hung several homosexual men in Iran.  I think this puts things in perspective a bit.

Agree.  Good point.

Agree about Iran too.  Reminiscent of Nazi Germany. 

StreetSoldier4U

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Agree.  Good point.

Agree about Iran too.  Reminiscent of Nazi Germany. 

Yet you will rarely see a liberal criticize Islamic culture.  There is a huge gap between refusing to bake a cake for a gay wedding and hanging gays from tall buildings.  You can always choose another baker.

StreetSoldier4U

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Being black in and of itself is not condemned by biblical scripture while homosexuality is or at least the vast majority of Christians believe it is.  As I said before, denying to bake a birthday cake for a gay couple wouldn't be scripturally defensible because there is a nominal association between a birthday cake and homosexuality.  On the other hand baking a cake specifically for a gay wedding would be against scripture because the baked cake itself would be directly associated with the promotion of a lifestyle that was against the bakers religion.

I'm going to bump this post because I believe it's a reasonable compromise