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Author Topic: Failure  (Read 841 times)
Damios
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« on: March 12, 2014, 10:15:57 AM »

Hi,

I want to ask something about sets to muscle failure. By failure i mean that you can't do next rep with good form and if u want to do next rep you need help from spotter,  remove weight or do cheat rep.

For example my volume is like i.e back:

DL 3x warm up and 4x 10-6
Dumbbell Rows 4x 12-6
Barbell Rows 4x 12-6
Seated Cable Rows 3-4x 12-8
Wide-Grip Lat Pulldown 3-4x 12-8

I'm training body part every 5-7 day. In this type of Volume how many sets i need to muscle failure in Your opinion and from Your experience? Smiley

What about Yours routines? How many sets to failure? :-)
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Donny
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2014, 10:22:39 AM »

Hi,

I want to ask something about sets to muscle failure. By failure i mean that you can't do next rep with good form and if u want to do next rep you need help from spotter,  remove weight or do cheat rep.

For example my volume is like i.e back:

DL 3x warm up and 4x 10-6
Dumbbell Rows 4x 12-6
Barbell Rows 4x 12-6
Seated Cable Rows 3-4x 12-8
Wide-Grip Lat Pulldown 3-4x 12-8

I'm training body part every 5-7 day. In this type of Volume how many sets i need to muscle failure in Your opinion and from Your experience? Smiley

What about Yours routines? How many sets to failure? :-)

Way too much rowing
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Damios
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2014, 12:11:48 PM »

Ok, so later i will write my whole program to correct :-) Thanks.

In this topic i'm only asking about failure sets.
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Donny
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2014, 01:01:02 PM »

Ok, so later i will write my whole program to correct :-) Thanks.

In this topic i'm only asking about failure sets.
well if you are going to failure with so many sets and exercises. I doubt very much if your "failure" is what i call failure.
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Damios
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2014, 03:41:04 AM »

So what is in Your opinion "failure"?

I mean moment when i can't push more rep with good form and i need to cheat or help from spotter to do next rep.
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jpm101
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2014, 09:09:44 AM »

Three levels of failure. Keeping this simple because it's really a complex subject. A point of any level of failure can affect not only a selected muscle group, but the whole body also. Which, in turn, affects the Central Nervous System (CNS). The CNS rely's of full recovery to function normally. The CNS is the key to muscle response and future potential of muscle growth and strength...when it is, in fact, allowed to function normally with rest and recovery.

1) Momentary failure
2) Temporary failure
3) Complete failure

General rule among Olympic lifters, Power Lifters and advanced BB'er is to avoid reaching a point of failure in training. Stopping 1 or 2 reps away, on any set, from reaching even a point of momentary failure. Lifters will usually test themselves for improvement every 3 weeks or so, with max weights, per lift, held to 1 to 3 reps. BB's may tend to do this also, though not needed for encouraging muscle growth.

This is where many BB'ers make the mistake of exhausting their CNS and not allowing enough recovery time, from workout to workout, with too many exercises, sets and workout days per week. Successful and experienced BB'ers tend to find that less is always more, with shorter workout and shying away from any point of failure. If your the one in a million gifted with superior genes, you may get away from any form of volume training......many have in the past. Or shooting up in the cheeks 2 times a day, you may thrive on any extreme method. If an average BB'er, spinning his wheels with not much in noticeable results in months, or even years, might suggest avoiding the point of failure and reducing the workouts and work load per week.

Good Luck

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Damios
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« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2014, 10:29:48 AM »

Three levels of failure. Keeping this simple because it's really a complex subject. A point of any level of failure can affect not only a selected muscle group, but the whole body also. Which, in turn, affects the Central Nervous System (CNS). The CNS rely's of full recovery to function normally. The CNS is the key to muscle response and future potential of muscle growth and strength...when it is, in fact, allowed to function normally with rest and recovery.

1) Momentary failure
2) Temporary failure
3) Complete failure

General rule among Olympic lifters, Power Lifters and advanced BB'er is to avoid reaching a point of failure in training. Stopping 1 or 2 reps away, on any set, from reaching even a point of momentary failure. Lifters will usually test themselves for improvement every 3 weeks or so, with max weights, per lift, held to 1 to 3 reps. BB's may tend to do this also, though not needed for encouraging muscle growth.

This is where many BB'ers make the mistake of exhausting their CNS and not allowing enough recovery time, from workout to workout, with too many exercises, sets and workout days per week. Successful and experienced BB'ers tend to find that less is always more, with shorter workout and shying away from any point of failure. If your the one in a million gifted with superior genes, you may get away from any form of volume training......many have in the past. Or shooting up in the cheeks 2 times a day, you may thrive on any extreme method. If an average BB'er, spinning his wheels with not much in noticeable results in months, or even years, might suggest avoiding the point of failure and reducing the workouts and work load per week.

Good Luck



Thanks jpm for answer! :-)

I like to watch training videos of BBrs and sometimes usual Users from diffrent boards. I noticed that a lot of BBrs look like fresh after workouts but they train hard of course. A lot of usual Users have wet T-Shirts, barely stay on legs etc. What does make it? Smiley I think BBrs train their muscles, usual Users "train" their CNS... Jpm, do You agree? Smiley

Jpm, avoid failure moment even "positive failure" ( i mean moment when you can't do next rep with perfect form yourself ) is necessary too?
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jpm101
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2014, 08:55:39 AM »

Positive failure is reaching a point where attempting another rep will result in only doing a half, quarter or not moving the bar at all. This is where temporary failure comes into play, because the muscle worked is temporary fatigued. Good time to end that set at least one rep before. Of course there are advanced ways to continue the set, as with the Rest-Pause system,  drop sets and similar programs of extended sets. These are short ranged programs, maybe lasting from 2 to 4 weeks, than back to general training.

Most training videos of the Pro's may not be the actual way they train. Most Pro's, and advanced men, will not do full ROM's but rather favor the middle range of most exercises. Example..the BP; pressing the bar/DB/machine never to a full top  position (lockout) or lowering the bar to the chest (no touch and go here). But doing very fast reps (around 1/4 to 1/2 ROM) in the mid-range position , keeping the TUT  (Time Under Tension) to the extreme. They don't require a lot of sets, for the focus is directly on the muscle worked. And not unneeded stress on the joints, for the weight can be somewhat moderate in training. Not going to the point of failure also. I have witnessed make of these types of works, from very large men, over the years.

Sorry, not sure what you mean by users (juicers?), wet T shirts, etc....maybe it's just me being dense at times.

Good Luck
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Donny
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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2014, 11:01:02 AM »

you want to save your Joints use pre-exhaust. You then do not Need heavy weights on the compound lifts. youŽll know when you hit failure Grin just make sure you use a rack or Training Partner at Hand
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Damios
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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2014, 01:42:12 PM »

Jpm,

This is the best set? Smiley I mean probably one rep before failure? : )

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF6w26dN2lU" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF6w26dN2lU</a>

And here is something like set to failure?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ0l8zffxik" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ0l8zffxik</a>
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jpm101
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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2014, 04:16:07 PM »

Yeah Buddy!!!

Coleman's would be a example of positive failure, where another rep would not be attempted. He could have stopped the rep before his final rep actually (for the average BB'er, anyway). But I'm not being critical of the great Ronnie Coleman......one of the tops of all time.

Williams hit the point of temporary failure, on the last attempted rep, and failed. Probably better off with just doing 2 good reps. But I don't think that video was part of his regular chest workout. More for the camera, and ego, than anything else. I don't follow BB'ing so not familiar with Williams, but a good lift by any ones scale.

DB benches can just become a pain in the ass for most guy's after reaching 140-150+ in workouts with a higher rep range (8-12). Not the press so much, that's more of the easier part, but the getting into position on the bench (or incline bench). Some guy's can get spotters for help, but not always that much better for the spotter and the guy doing the benching. I never wanted to bother spotter, so haven't done any max weight DB benches for years. Machines are just not my first choice, but if they work for other people, than good for them..

Here's something no one does anymore: If wanting to improve getting a pair of DB's in position, practice cleaning those two DB sitting down or on your knees for 3X6-9 reps. Tends to improve getting the DB's into position for benching. Side benefit is better traps, delts and biceps.

Good Luck.
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Damios
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« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2014, 07:29:59 AM »

Yeah Buddy!!!

Coleman's would be a example of positive failure, where another rep would not be attempted. He could have stopped the rep before his final rep actually (for the average BB'er, anyway). But I'm not being critical of the great Ronnie Coleman......one of the tops of all time.

Thanks again for answer.

So, set like this on video should be only the last one from all work sets in exercises or all of work sets? For example, we have in chest routine:

Dumbbell Press 4x 12-8

So only the last one ( fourth in this example ) should be like this in video and 1st, 2nd and 3rd set should be less heavy ( i mean more reps before failure ) or all of these work sets should be like this one in Ronnie's video? Smiley
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jpm101
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« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2014, 08:41:20 AM »

Damios...try not over thinking training, pretty simple process...really. Many half wits (look at me) have excelled in BB'ing, doesn't require a masters degree. The cause and effect principle can apply to any form of weight training. With that, allowing enough recovery time for the body (CNS).

Following the motto  of KISS  (Kiss It Simple Stupid) which has hung on banners/signs in many serious gyms, over the years, may be something to remember.

General rule is that any rep scheme, in any set, should not be taken to a point of failure (not moving the bar or completing the actual exercise). As exampled by the Coleman video, by stopping short of just one more rep. . There are exception, for brief training periods, when advance method are put into play of course. Using the idea of extended sets, heavy/light, Rest/Pause, drop sets, 21's, running the rack (exceptional), etc. Negative are another proven way for extending a normal set.

Good Luck.

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Damios
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« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2014, 09:02:53 AM »

Damios...try not over thinking training, pretty simple process...really. Many half wits (look at me) have excelled in BB'ing, doesn't require a masters degree. The cause and effect principle can apply to any form of weight training. With that, allowing enough recovery time for the body (CNS).

Following the motto  of KISS  (Kiss It Simple Stupid) which has hung on banners/signs in many serious gyms, over the years, may be something to remember.

General rule is that any rep scheme, in any set, should not be taken to a point of failure (not moving the bar or completing the actual exercise). As exampled by the Coleman video, by stopping short of just one more rep. . There are exception, for brief training periods, when advance method are put into play of course. Using the idea of extended sets, heavy/light, Rest/Pause, drop sets, 21's, running the rack (exceptional), etc. Negative are another proven way for extending a normal set.

Good Luck.



I see. So I will do all of my work sets in this same way how it is showing in Coleman's video Smiley I mean one rep before failure.
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