Question for those who juice: part two.

[knny187]

I say......


get juiced to the gills!



You too can look like this after a few cycles:

[Hendrix]

You are a fool if you think you will lose every ounce of your gains.  Of course if you are taking 4G of AAS ew, you are mega-dosing anyway and you will only keep a small percentage of your gains.

It's all about homeostatis.  The more you go away from it, the less you will keep.  Keep your cycles compact, tight and within reason and you will keep gains.  If you megadose you will only set yourself up for a fall when you come off.

This is real.

Learn.




DIV

Its all relative using a postcycle therapy,maybe you will hod on to your gains longer but not for ever,eventually they will dissapate over time unless start the whole cycle over again.

[Disgusted]

 It's correct that you are not going to keep gains using pct when someone uses 1-3 grams a week. For  those of you who think that your going to keep some of your gains doing "compact" cycles, well if using a few clomid tabs and HCG helps you keep the gains you got from steroids  then you should have just used clomid and hcg in the first place cause your steroids cycle was worthless to begin with.

[Double XL]

i keep most of my size and strength gains off cycle, reps decrease a little, after 3-5 months off i start losing size, so yes you will eventually lose the size you gained on cycle maybe not all of it but most of it, depends on the person.

[DIVISION]

Its all relative using a postcycle therapy,maybe you will hod on to your gains longer but not for ever,eventually they will dissapate over time unless start the whole cycle over again.

Time on = Time off.

Assuming you are in this game for the long haul, you will be going on cycle again, so your theory of losing all gains holds no merit.

Who does one cycle and stops?  People who aren't committed to begin with.

It's correct that you are not going to keep gains using pct when someone uses 1-3 grams a week. For  those of you who think that your going to keep some of your gains doing "compact" cycles, well if using a few clomid tabs and HCG helps you keep the gains you got from steroids  then you should have just used clomid and hcg in the first place cause your steroids cycle was worthless to begin with.

Evidently you aren't skooled on new PCT strategies.....

HCG taken on-cycle will help keep your nuts functioning so they don't shrivel up.

Cutting down the lag between the end of the cycle and start of PCT is what allows one to keep the majority of gains (provided you aren't megadosing).

All you need for PCT:  Nolvadex, HCG and Aromasin......

Clomid is outdated for PCT purposes......as Nolvadex can fill estrogen receptors and stimulate LH/FSH much better and HCG is the be all/end all for stimulating the Leydig cells to produce testosterone.  Aromasin is an anti-aromatase that won't inhibit the function of the Nolvadex.

I know you haven't tried this PCT, Disgusted, because if you had you wouldn't be whining......



DIV

[Disgusted]

The facts

1. PCT will not help one keep gains from megadosing

2. (in your case) No combo albeit fancy as you may try of non steroidal drugs will let you keep gains that you have made from using steroids.

Once you quit your pct and steroids your gains will disappear eventually. The only reason to do PCT is if you want your testicals to work again. Clomid alone will do this and I have seen it done many times.

Use steroids and grow. Stop steroids and shrink back to normal. Do PCT and delay (slightly) the inevitable.
PCT is a waste of time for any other reason. 

[DIVISION]

The facts

1. PCT will not help one keep gains from megadosing

2. (in your case) No combo albeit fancy as you may try of non steroidal drugs will let you keep gains that you have made from using steroids.

Once you quit your pct and steroids your gains will disappear eventually. The only reason to do PCT is if you want your testicals to work again. Clomid alone will do this and I have seen it done many times.

Use steroids and grow. Stop steroids and shrink back to normal. Do PCT and delay (slightly) the inevitable.
PCT is a waste of time for any other reason. 

Those aren't facts, Disgusted.

Unless you have clinical studies backing that, they mean nothing.........only your opinion.

As I said before.......who does one cycle and stops?  Those who aren't committed to this game for the long haul. 

In that case, yes, eventually they would regress to the mean; though if they quit after one cycle they probably wouldn't care anyway.  See my point?

Cycling isn't something you do once and never again.  Common sense?




DIV

[Big_D]

You guys are going above my head. This leads me to ponder how many users are this well schooled on the subject?

[onlyme]

WHERE'S PART ONE?[/size]

[Parker_Boy]

You guys are going above my head. This leads me to ponder how many users are this well schooled on the subject?

Unfortunately I think there are a lot of users out there that are pressured, either by themselves or by other users, to cross over to the dark side based simply by what they see and hear.  IMO you can't be lazy when it comes to the knowledge surrounding steroid use but many jump in without knowing exactly what effects they may encounter.  So and so is taking 1,000 mg and he is bigger than me so I need to take 1,000 mg.  Based on what I know about AAS and the people that I know are using, I would say that less than 20% are "schooled" enough on the subject.  Also, I learned a lot about how my body responded and recovered from cycles as I went along. This is valuable knowledge but if you jump into the "deep end" too soon your lesson may be harder to learn.

[Big_D]

Unfortunately I think there are a lot of users out there that are pressured, either by themselves or by other users, to cross over to the dark side based simply by what they see and hear.  IMO you can't be lazy when it comes to the knowledge surrounding steroid use but many jump in without knowing exactly what effects they may encounter.  So and so is taking 1,000 mg and he is bigger than me so I need to take 1,000 mg.  Based on what I know about AAS and the people that I know are using, I would say that less than 20% are "schooled" enough on the subject.  Also, I learned a lot about how my body responded and recovered from cycles as I went along. This is valuable knowledge but if you jump into the "deep end" too soon your lesson may be harder to learn.

This is what I see a lot. Uniformed men and teenagers jumping in and looking crazy as hell, then when they get off, they crash hard. When they are on, they look sick as hell, red and unhealthy.

A pro works out at my gym and he talked about people going over board, especially in the pro's. He says he uses moderate doses and he looks big and healthy all year round. He is big on Insulin though and I don' think that is too safe.

[Big_D]

WHERE'S PART ONE?[/size]

Go back a few pages !

[Mars]

Mike Matarazzo never used insuline.

[Disgusted]

Those aren't facts, Disgusted.

Unless you have clinical studies backing that, they mean nothing.........only your opinion.

As I said before.......who does one cycle and stops?  Those who aren't committed to this game for the long haul. 

In that case, yes, eventually they would regress to the mean; though if they quit after one cycle they probably wouldn't care anyway.  See my point?

Cycling isn't something you do once and never again.  Common sense?




DIV

Then prove me wrong with  your clinical studies? I know of no clinical studies on PCT for bodybuilders and even if there were it is of no use other than what I mentioned in my last post. Stop trying to complicate things by pretending bodybuilding is a science experiment.

[Van_Bilderass]

Evidently you aren't skooled on new PCT strategies.....

HCG taken on-cycle will help keep your nuts functioning so they don't shrivel up.

Cutting down the lag between the end of the cycle and start of PCT is what allows one to keep the majority of gains (provided you aren't megadosing).

All you need for PCT:  Nolvadex, HCG and Aromasin......

Clomid is outdated for PCT purposes......as Nolvadex can fill estrogen receptors and stimulate LH/FSH much better and HCG is the be all/end all for stimulating the Leydig cells to produce testosterone.  Aromasin is an anti-aromatase that won't inhibit the function of the Nolvadex.

I know you haven't tried this PCT, Disgusted, because if you had you wouldn't be whining......



DIV

Dude, I suspect you have read Anthony Roberts' PCT article. Correct?
You need to take a harder look at this stuff and not just swallow up everything some new "guru" is touting for the moment. Fact is, Roberts' pulls a bunch of stuff out of his ass and a lot of it is more hypothesis than fact. Clomid isn't outdated. It has been shown to work in restoring the HPTA after a steroid cycle in studies. Sure, nolva might work a bit better, who knows, but a lot of people also think it's more toxic than clomid. It's a known carcinogen also. Liver toxic too.

Don't be so uncritical Div. Just because you do the latest, greatest PCT doesn't mean it fail safe. Are you getting your T levels checked frequently?

[DIVISION]

Then prove me wrong with  your clinical studies? I know of no clinical studies on PCT for bodybuilders and even if there were it is of no use other than what I mentioned in my last post. Stop trying to complicate things by pretending bodybuilding is a science experiment.

That's my point, Disgusted.

There are no clinical studies for our control group (lifters using AAS) because it doesn't apply to medical research, has no realistic application that the FDA considers "worthy".

As far as I'm concerned this is all the undiscovered country.  What works for you may not work for me due to genetic predisposition, but on that same token you can't make hard and fast rules based on hearsay.  Your "facts" are bullshit, and can't be proven.  You only know what works for you, so keep your comments limited to that and you'll be fine.  Otherwise you're reaching...........and I caught you.

Dude, I suspect you have read Anthony Roberts' PCT article. Correct?You need to take a harder look at this stuff and not just swallow up everything some new "guru" is touting for the moment. Fact is, Roberts' pulls a bunch of stuff out of his ass and a lot of it is more hypothesis than fact. Clomid isn't outdated. It has been shown to work in restoring the HPTA after a steroid cycle in studies. Sure, nolva might work a bit better, who knows, but a lot of people also think it's more toxic than clomid. It's a known carcinogen also. Liver toxic too.

Don't be so uncritical Div. Just because you do the latest, greatest PCT doesn't mean it fail safe. Are you getting your T levels checked frequently?

I form my beliefs based on experience and reading all the latest information from all the gurus:  Roberts, Llewellyn, Duchaine, Rea.....

I don't weigh any one more than the others, but I take what they say and apply it, and if it works for me, then so be it.  I know it's not the gospel, that's understood.

Nolvadex works better than Clomid for purposes of a PCT stack.  It blocks estrogen more readily and stimulates FSH/LH and at a lower dose than Clomid.  You need 150MG of Clomid to get the same benefit from 20MG of Nolvadex. 

If Nolvadex was that much of a danger, carcinogenic as you say, then why is it given to female cancer patients?  I get regular bloodwork, so my Test, hepatic, BP, thyroid are all in check.

Say what you will about Roberts, but his adding Aromasin to PCT for purposes of an anti-aromatase was genius.  Arimidex and Femara inhibit Nolvadex, while Aromasin provides a synergistic effect for bringing endegenous hormone levels back up to par.





DIV

[Disgusted]

That's my point, Disgusted.

There are no clinical studies for our control group (lifters using AAS) because it doesn't apply to medical research, has no realistic application that the FDA considers "worthy".

As far as I'm concerned this is all the undiscovered country.  What works for you may not work for me due to genetic predisposition, but on that same token you can't make hard and fast rules based on hearsay.  Your "facts" are bullshit, and can't be proven.  You only know what works for you, so keep your comments limited to that and you'll be fine.  Otherwise you're reaching...........and I caught you.

Come on Div, caught me?  Your the one making the claims. Your argument is obviously falling apart since you are resorting to name calling.

[Kegdrainer]

why do people do anything that is bad for them?  Do you eat beef?  Is it organic?  Do you follow strict regimen of whole organic foods?  Then you are doing damage to your body.  Do you drink alcohol?  Juice?  Soda?  All bad for you.  Do you have a genetic predispoition to cancer?   Diabetes?  Do you have unprotected sex? 

At least steroids have some kind of positive effect on people.  Otherwise they wouldn't take them.  Who gives a shit what you are gonna be like when you are 60, with your liver falling out.  Chances are it would happen anyway from something else.   

I don't take AAS but I learn about them and i toy with the idea of trying a cycle to see for myself what the hype is about.  Are there risks?  Sure, what doesn't have risks?  You risk your life every time you open your eyes to start the day.   Why don't you find a rave bulletin board and ask people why they do Extacy?   Go to a bar and pester the smokers.  Don't come in here and badmouth steroids, that's just trolling. 

This advice brought to you from a steroid free weightlifter.   Oh shit wait, I eat meat that was fed bovine growth hormones, I guess Im on the shit too.

[Van_Bilderass]

.

Everyone has to make up their own mind. I think it's safe to say this protocol is experimental at this point, and far from proven superior. How many do blood work after PCT anyway?

Here's a good read for those interested in this new protocol:
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showthread.php?t=134238595

Here's a bit about Nolva's carcinogenic effects from one article:

CARCINOGENENIC EFFECTS
It wasn't long before laboratory studies showed that tamoxifen acted as a carcinogen. It has been found that tamoxifen binds tightly and irreversibly to DNA, the genetic blueprint of a cell, causing a cancerous mutation to take place. Even Australia's conservative National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) warned that no amount of tamoxifen is safe when it comes to carcinogenic effects.

In California there is a law called "Proposition 65" that requires the state to publish and maintain a list of all known carcinogens. In May 1995, the state's Carcinogen Identification Committee voted unanimously to add tamoxifen to its list.

Following suit, in 1996 the World Health Organization formally designated tamoxifen a human carcinogen, grouping it with 70 other chemicals — about one quarter of them pharmaceuticals — that have received this dubious distinction.
Cont...


Liver Cancer and Liver Disease
Tamoxifen is toxic to the liver, and there have been reports of acute hepatitis in patients treated with tamoxifen. Liver damage has occurred in every animal given tamoxifen. According to Gary Williams, medical director of the American Heart Foundation, tamoxifen has been shown in animal studies to be a "rip-roaring" liver carcinogen, inducing highly aggressive cancers in about 12 per cent of rats. (7)

The latest human studies show a six-fold increase in liver cancer among women taking tamoxifen for more than two years." Liver failure and tamoxifen-induced hepatitis, although rare, have been reported. Even Zeneca admits that tamoxifen is a liver carcinogen — while nevertheless aggressively promoting its use.