Working out while sore from previous workout?

[Soul Crusher]

 

[SilverSpoon]

From my experience the vast majority of guys who bodybuild believe the wrong things. The fact is most of you are NOT growing or are doing so imperceptively slowly. Instead of thinking the soreness is a nuisance it is actually a signal that some remodelling is occurring. That is, you are growing as long as you eat enough. No supplements are required just a balanced diet. When you train regularly but seldom induce any DOMS then you are merely maintaining your size and not increasing it. You have to avoid complete recovery because then it will be harder to trigger growth because of the repeated bout effect. It is easier to keep a muscle growing by training it every 3rd day with a program that ends with multiple sets (6) with the maximum resistance for 20 to 10 reps. Start with 20 reps and end with 10 to 12 with the same weight after the third set. Do not use these muscles again in the two rest days but if you were training arms then do legs. Try this for from 2 to 4 weeks then change your program. Your connective tissue needs the rest but the muscles probably not. You have to avoid injuries at all costs. Don't do deads, upright rows, benching and perhaps hacks. More later if anyone is interested.

Does this have to do with homeostasis?

Vince, I have been pondering your theory for some time, as I was a pure Mentzerite, and got quite strong doing his protocols. 

Trouble is, I looked little different from the base I established.  Yet I was deadlifting 405x8 (perfect form).

I am back training after being very sporadic, and have started off what would be considered "light", and am already seeing results.

[sagittal chest]

My chest is always sore for a few days after, I also follow similar workouts to your routine, I start with ehavy coumpound then half way switch to machines and do drop sets and sometimes finish off with 3 sets of press-ups to failure....by the end I feel like ive had an implant, chest feels solid and sore as hell.

I only train one body part per week so the next few workouts my chest loosens up from doing back exercices (pull ups...etc)

Yes I also train each bodypart once per week.

[dyslexic]

I'm all for shooting the dead horse again...



And lets throw the Fountainhead in with a can of gasoline.



Everything in this world is subjective.

[James28]

I've made my very best gains when I stopped taking so many 'rest days' and trained through DOMS. Vince Basile might be onto something.

I even made a thread about this in the Natural Bodybuilding section a year ago wondering WTF is going on. It took years to deprogram myself into ignoring advice from pros and magazines.

[FermiDirac]

Yo Elliot said you can train the same muscle every day.

[dyslexic]

Yo Elliot said you can train the same muscle every day.

Yo Elliot and Boston Lloyd need to get a room....

[Vince B]

What the magazines don't account for is all the serious training that doesn't result in growth. My theory does. No soreness then little or no growth. Mentzer was a smart guy but he got it wrong. He was basing his theory of Heavy Duty on Dr Hans Selye's stress theory. The idea was that you trained hard and the muscles overcompensated by getting bigger and stronger. You waited until the muscle recovered then trained them again. Mike found with his clients that resting a week or more between workouts resulted in growth. There were no scientific studies done to confirm his hypotheses.

What I discovered is that I had to train long and hard enough to cause Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. No DOMS -> no hypertrophy. If this was true then I concluded it made sense to try to keep the muscles sore. I trained every third day to give connective tissue some relief. The muscles were ready to go before then.

So, what kind of training leads to DOMS? Lots of sets with the maximum resistance you can do for 20 reps. Why 20? You are also aiming for a maximum pump. Higher reps will do that. Besides, by keeping the resistance at the maximum you find that by the 4th set your reps reduce to 12 or so. Those are enough to generate a pump.

[sagittal chest]

What the magazines don't account for is all the serious training that doesn't result in growth. My theory does. No soreness then little or no growth. Mentzer was a smart guy but he got it wrong. He was basing his theory of Heavy Duty on Dr Hans Selye's stress theory. The idea was that you trained hard and the muscles overcompensated by getting bigger and stronger. You waited until the muscle recovered then trained them again. Mike found with his clients that resting a week or more between workouts resulted in growth. There were no scientific studies done to confirm his hypotheses.

What I discovered is that I had to train long and hard enough to cause Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. No DOMS -> no hypertrophy. If this was true then I concluded it made sense to try to keep the muscles sore. I trained every third day to give connective tissue some relief. The muscles were ready to go before then.

So, what kind of training leads to DOMS? Lots of sets with the maximum resistance you can do for 20 reps. Why 20? You are also aiming for a maximum pump. Higher reps will do that. Besides, by keeping the resistance at the maximum you find that by the 4th set your reps reduce to 12 or so. Those are enough to generate a pump.

If you're sore all of the time (not sure if that's what you are saying), then you are a in a constant state of recovery = no growth.

Seems logical that you want to achieve 'DOMS', however you don't want to achieve DOMS again until the previous DOMS has dissapated.

For this reason I am working out each part once a week (or more but only if the soreness is gone).

The workout is similar though - except I won't start with 20 reps as you suggest.
Ill train heavy with 6-8 reps on big compound exercises, then lower the weight and do 6-8 more, lower it again and do 6-8 more etc. I do many sets with as much weight as I can handle for 6-8 reps, until the muscles is exhausted and I can only do these reps with "lightweight baby!"

This is creating DOMS,
So it isn't true that you have to do such high reps as you suggest.
Seems more beneficial to do it my way because you are building strength as well as creating DOMS = more muscle growth in addition to greater strength gains.

My strength has definitely increased.

[SilverSpoon]

What the magazines don't account for is all the serious training that doesn't result in growth. My theory does. No soreness then little or no growth. Mentzer was a smart guy but he got it wrong. He was basing his theory of Heavy Duty on Dr Hans Selye's stress theory. The idea was that you trained hard and the muscles overcompensated by getting bigger and stronger. You waited until the muscle recovered then trained them again. Mike found with his clients that resting a week or more between workouts resulted in growth. There were no scientific studies done to confirm his hypotheses.

What I discovered is that I had to train long and hard enough to cause Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness. No DOMS -> no hypertrophy. If this was true then I concluded it made sense to try to keep the muscles sore. I trained every third day to give connective tissue some relief. The muscles were ready to go before then.

So, what kind of training leads to DOMS? Lots of sets with the maximum resistance you can do for 20 reps. Why 20? You are also aiming for a maximum pump. Higher reps will do that. Besides, by keeping the resistance at the maximum you find that by the 4th set your reps reduce to 12 or so. Those are enough to generate a pump.

Vince, in your training experience, did you get stronger as well as grow?

The reason I ask is that when I did Mentzer's program to a "t" circa 1997-1999, I gained quite a bit of muscle, but then hit a brick wall.  Then I made the silly mistake of thinking I could eat my way through plateaus.  How wrong I was.  I got more adipose tissue as a reward.

I am beginning to train regularly again (I have never fully stopped resistance training), and want to get as big/strong as I can before I turn 40.

[Cleanest Natural]

I think Vince knows what he is talking about. I feel the same way

[oldtimer1]

Lifting was never rocket science. Some great bodybuilders are really dumb guys but it didn't stop them from success. They couldn't give a logical answer to what they do in a gym. There are no secrets except for syringes and vials.  Guys have been champions using HIT but the majority have used volume. Some are fans of high reps but then you have Bill Pearl who isn't.

I remember an article that Jeff Efferson wrote back in the day. It was titled, "Until Pigs fly you don't have to be a scientist to be a bodybuilder."  He basically said what I said above. Most successful bodybuilders use volume. I think for the majority of guys  should lift heavy and to failure early in your lifting career. Then volume and moderate weights are the standard training day. I'm not saying that every once in awhile you shouldn't test your strength limits.  We all have relative limits on how strong we can get. If you're a dedicated trainer for 10-15 years are you still banging your head against the wall to add 5lbs to your curl or bench?

I really believe for a lack of a better term a bodybuilders size is due to training for muscular endurance.  This isn't to be confused with cardio endurance. Muscular endurance is training hard for multiple sets with a weight that will fatigue all muscle fibers. If a real scientific answer to optimal training was found we would all be doing the same split, rep range and even exercises as crazy as that sounds. We all use different exercises, splits and rep ranges. We differ on frequency. Some hit a body part once a week another even up to three. On a side note it's really just about impossible to truly isolate a body part. Doing a delt press? You are training triceps. Doing a row you are doing biceps. Deadlift on back day? You are training legs. There is so much overlap involved and that is not even counting support muscles.

The latest research shows that soreness isn't caused by muscle spasm or lactic acid accumulation. It's caused by microscopic tears. That DOMS peaks 24 to 48 hours after working out. The eccentric part of the rep is the biggest offender. It's thought that it's the repair process and not the damage that causes the pain. The neutrophils an macrphages are sent out to clear out the damaged tissue. The outer layer of the muscles gets damaged. Bradyinin is released by the damaged muscle which increase nerve growth factor that makes for pain sensitivity. It also accounts for inflammation. It's a damage repair cycle. You have to stimulate adaptation. The more in shape you get the more you weed out weak muscle fibers and the less DOMS you will get. Surprisingly muscle biopsies taken from a weight lifter and a person who doesn't lift like most getbiggers showed no relative difference in muscle fiber size. One theory out there is that you actually gain more muscle fibers by training but I have never heard this conclusively resolved.  

What's the answer concerning when it's optimal to train again after DOMS? I don't know. I think for the majority in bodybuilding hitting a bodypart twice a week is best. How is that for a non committal answer?

To conclude:
1. There are no secrets.
2. You don't have to be a scientist to be a bodybuilder
3. Most successful bodybuilders have used volume. The HIT propaganda of Darden and Jones getting a successful volume guy to use in their pictures are not proof of HIT success.
4. Pick stuff up and put things down.
5

[no one]

smash it.

your body will adapt to whatever stresses you put it under. so, if your only training once a week, you'll only adapt to training once a week. therefore only stimulating growth once a week. the fuck good is that?

smash your whole body 3 times a week. you'll be sore at first but it will get used to it quickly. lots of growth there doing this.

[dyslexic]

Ever just have a good stretching session?



Uhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm....



Stretch = D.O.M.S also....



We love to beat dead horses around here, oh we so love it.



Everyone is searching for some "mystical" answer that just seems to evade everyone when it comes to objectivity and bodybuilding.



Here: Stop comparing the two. I understand. This statement alone will make Mr. Mentzer roll over in his grave.



So be it.



When everyone starts believing more in subjectivity and multiple means to an end, the mysticism will stop.



Do we all have to take the same exact route to meet the same destination as another? Really?




So far.... listen (read) closely... and then read it again.



D.O.M.S. and the theory therin as to the cause of 'said' situation has NOT YET BEEN PROVEN!!!!!



How we can we even logically begin to assess when to start training after this "soreness" that we have all felt at one time or another, and will always strive to...back on point: HOW CAN WE LOGICALLY FIGURE OUT WHEN TO START TRAINING AFTER D.O.M.S. IF WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT CAUSES IT??


You can feed me all the incessant crap you want, go ahead. I've had D.O.M.S. so many fucking times over the last 40 years and it's always been for a reason a little different from the last. I know I still haven't figured it out regardless of what any book or science says anway ~

Hi reps, low reps, heavy reps, light reps, fighting, swimming, sleeping wrong, stretching, posing, flexing, falling, over-stretching, boxing, twisting wrong...


Oh sorry. Got carried away. Yeah, I've even had D.O.M.S. in my finger tips the next day just from typing so much the night before. Doesn't mean I was gonna stop typing any time soon.


Don't tell me, let me guess: You're gonna say that some of those pains AREN'T D.O.M.S. - right?


Delayed Onset of Muscular Soreness....


O.K. then. Make sure to re-define carefully.


Should I post this? Or am I just being overly-tired and ignorant... hmmmmmmmm

[oldtimer1]

Ever just have a good stretching session?



Uhhhhhhhhhmmmmmm....



Stretch = D.O.M.S also....



We love to beat dead horses around here, oh we so love it.



Everyone is searching for some "mystical" answer that just seems to evade everyone when it comes to objectivity and bodybuilding.



Here: Stop comparing the two. I understand. This statement alone will make Mr. Mentzer roll over in his grave.



So be it.



When everyone starts believing more in subjectivity and multiple means to an end, the mysticism will stop.



Do we all have to take the same exact route to meet the same destination as another? Really?




So far.... listen (read) closely... and then read it again.



D.O.M.S. and the theory therin as to the cause of 'said' situation has NOT YET BEEN PROVEN!!!!!



How we can we even logically begin to assess when to start training after this "soreness" that we have all felt at one time or another, and will always strive to...back on point: HOW CAN WE LOGICALLY FIGURE OUT WHEN TO START TRAINING AFTER D.O.M.S. IF WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT CAUSES IT??


You can feed me all the incessant crap you want, go ahead. I've had D.O.M.S. so many fucking times over the last 40 years and it's always been for a reason a little different from the last. I know I still haven't figured it out regardless of what any book or science says anway ~

Hi reps, low reps, heavy reps, light reps, fighting, swimming, sleeping wrong, stretching, posing, flexing, falling, over-stretching, boxing, twisting wrong...


Oh sorry. Got carried away. Yeah, I've even had D.O.M.S. in my finger tips the next day just from typing so much the night before. Doesn't mean I was gonna stop typing any time soon.


Don't tell me, let me guess: You're gonna say that some of those pains AREN'T D.O.M.S. - right?


Delayed Onset of Muscular Soreness....


O.K. then. Make sure to re-define carefully.


Should I post this? Or am I just being overly-tired and ignorant... hmmmmmmmm

Stretching has no beneficial effect on DOMS. An examination on 25 independent studies show no proof stretching helps. R.D. Herbert and M. de Noronha,"Stretching to prevent or reduce muscle soreness after exercise, "The Cochrane Library,2008. The original concept that stretching is beneficial is from an 1960's study that was disproven that a sore muscle was one that went into spasm and had to be stretched. It's like that 1960's study that declared that squats are bad for the knees. It has also been proved a very flawed study but it doesn't stop people from using it to declare that squats are bad for the knees.

[Mr Anabolic]

That is essentially what millions are doing and no wonder they aren't growing much. The so-called common sense isn't based on science.

Age and roids add/take away an entirely different set of variables.

Also, there are limits, there are previous injuries to consider, there is mental burnout, there is work, there is life, etc...

[Vince B]

If you're sore all of the time (not sure if that's what you are saying), then you are a in a constant state of recovery = no growth.

Seems logical that you want to achieve 'DOMS', however you don't want to achieve DOMS again until the previous DOMS has dissapated.

For this reason I am working out each part once a week (or more but only if the soreness is gone).

The workout is similar though - except I won't start with 20 reps as you suggest.
Ill train heavy with 6-8 reps on big compound exercises, then lower the weight and do 6-8 more, lower it again and do 6-8 more etc. I do many sets with as much weight as I can handle for 6-8 reps, until the muscles is exhausted and I can only do these reps with "lightweight baby!"

This is creating DOMS,
So it isn't true that you have to do such high reps as you suggest.
Seems more beneficial to do it my way because you are building strength as well as creating DOMS = more muscle growth in addition to greater strength gains.

My strength has definitely increased.

Unbelievable that anyone could think like this. I am wasting my time with people like you. Just keep believing what you do because you have no capacity to learn anything from me.

[Vince B]

Vince, in your training experience, did you get stronger as well as grow?

The reason I ask is that when I did Mentzer's program to a "t" circa 1997-1999, I gained quite a bit of muscle, but then hit a brick wall.  Then I made the silly mistake of thinking I could eat my way through plateaus.  How wrong I was.  I got more adipose tissue as a reward.

I am beginning to train regularly again (I have never fully stopped resistance training), and want to get as big/strong as I can before I turn 40.

If you are experiencing rapid hypertrophy your strength will increase rapidly, too. However, the goal is to get bigger not stronger. The strength gains are part of the process and a necessary part but the multiple sets with the maximum resistance is what stimulates hypertrophy. There is nothing special about any age so have goals but keep them realistic.

[dyslexic]

Stretching has no beneficial effect on DOMS. An examination on 25 independent studies show no proof stretching helps. R.D. Herbert and M. de Noronha,"Stretching to prevent or reduce muscle soreness after exercise, "The Cochrane Library,2008. The original concept that stretching is beneficial is from an 1960's study that was disproven that a sore muscle was one that went into spasm and had to be stretched. It's like that 1960's study that declared that squats are bad for the knees. It has also been proved a very flawed study but it doesn't stop people from using it to declare that squats are bad for the knees.

"Oldtimer" with all due respect, I hope that is NOT what you think I was trying to say.


So easy to lose stuff in translation with the internet.


I may get into it a bit later if this thread is still going.


The point I was trying to make stays pretty consistent ~

[oldtimer1]

"Oldtimer" with all due respect, I hope that is NOT what you think I was trying to say.


So easy to lose stuff in translation with the internet.


I may get into it a bit later if this thread is still going.


The point I was trying to make stays pretty consistent ~

Ok

[The Abdominal Snoman]

We all seen the guy in the gym who only trains chest and arms and he has pretty big chest and arms. The guy seems to be training these body parts all the time. Like 3 days a week. Basile may be on to something...

[James28]

We all seen the guy in the gym who only trains chest and arms and he has pretty big chest and arms. The guy seems to be training these body parts all the time. Like 3 days a week. Basile may be on to something...

He is on to something. Might be time to allow Basile his platform without being shouted at from the audience.

I've already switched from a one day a week per body part, two training my whole body twice a week. Huge shock to the system. Most nights I'm in bed by 8pm and asleep minutes later.

[James28]

It really brings us to the question about rest and recovery. Is R&R overstated?

[disco_stu]

I did a really intense chest workout some days ago, starting with heavy bench pressing using explosive movements, followed by slow negatives, then followed that with less and less weight until I was bench pressing a small amount - totally exhausting the muscle.

Essentially I did hit training combined with volume.

I followed the benching with lots of indirect work - right down to push-ups.

The result is, days later I am still sore - something I haven't experienced in years of working out.

I am eager to workout again, however I am not sure if it is counter productive to do so if the muscles are still sore - despite days passing.

Any thoughts?

lol. hit combined with volume..

you cant do hit if there's volume...

period. you clearly dont understand what hit is.

its ok though, most people dont..and thats why they dont see decent results or criticise it.

its pretty simple really...intensity is the largest amount of work over a certain time, that u can handle... if u then do more work after that, you havent done hit...hit becomes "not hit".

[Simple Simon]

lol. hit combined with volume..

you cant do hit if there's volume...

period. you clearly dont understand what hit is.

its ok though, most people dont..and thats why they dont see decent results or criticise it.

its pretty simple really...intensity is the largest amount of work over a certain time, that u can handle... if u then do more work after that, you havent done hit...hit becomes "not hit".

So by definition that could be a long time?