High Volume vs HIT

[_aj_]

This.

It's telling that it's always the experienced guys with the best pbysiques that dont follow some dogshit dogmatic approach to training.

It's picking things up and putting them down.

I want to be like this, but I have to have at least an idea of what I want to do in the gym before I go. Then I refer to my logbook (oh, brother) for weights that I completed previously to see where I want to start.

[the trainer]

Do You Guys think is it possible to make gains on 6 days in week lifting?  

( You don't grow in the gym and other theories like this...   )

No you wont unless you are a genetic freak or you are on a boatload of roids.

[JasonH]

Having trained at Temple Gym for about 15 years I grew up on HIT but after I left and tried volume training I've made so much more progress. Just got to find what works for you, all that heavy duty 6-8 reps a set stuff just doesn't do it for me.

[Palpatine Q]

I want to be like this, but I have to have at least an idea of what I want circularin the gym before I go. Then I refer to my logbook (oh, brother) for weights that I completed previously to see where I want to start.

I dont keep track of poundage. I mean I know how strong I am but it's not the reason I'm there and I am not trying to hit certain reps/poundages.

For example on a lat pulldown I'll just put the pin in somewhere near the bottom and just rep it out. It's all about exertion and effort.

Machines, free weights....preacher curl machine, dumbell curls, your muscles dont know the difference between a square weight attached to a cable or a circular one on a straight bar.

The one constant in my training is I work out very hard and I think about the kineseology of my body and what hits the target muscle most effectively

PS   you can't just remember what weights you used ? I thought you were a smart guy....LOL 

[_aj_]

PS   you can't just remember what weights you used ? I thought you were a smart guy....LOL  

Heh. It's what I make an effort to commit to memory. I have a lot of OCD-like gym behaviors that I will be revisiting in the near future as to their effectiveness given my new protocol.

[Viking11]

I dont keep track of poundage. I mean I know how strong I am but it's not the reason I'm there and I am not trying to hit certain reps/poundages.

For example on a lat pulldown I'll just put the pin in somewhere near the bottom and just rep it out. It's all about exertion and effort.

Machines, free weights....preacher curl machine, dumbell curls, your muscles dont know the difference between a square weight attached to a cable or a circular one on a straight bar.

The one constant in my training is I work out very hard and I think about the kineseology of my body and what hits the target muscle most effectively

PS   you can't just remember what weights you used ? I thought you were a smart guy....LOL 

. Just use the stack on everything. Nothing to remember that way.

[Viking11]

Having trained at Temple Gym for about 15 years I grew up on HIT but after I left and tried volume training I've made so much more progress. Just got to find what works for you, all that heavy duty 6-8 reps a set stuff just doesn't do it for me.

You can do HIT with higher reps. Indeed, the protocol suggested by Jones,Darden, et al was to do 8 to 12 reps. Upper body, 15-20 lower body.  That's BEFORE any forced or negative reps. Mentzer dropped the rep range because that worked better for him- Mr White Fiber.

[no one]

The first thing to do before deciding which training method to implement,is to join a fucking gym.......on this site,that would be a rarity! 

PS-JUST FUCKING LIFT!!

haha i was thinking the same thing- you mean people here actually train?

as for methodology sounds like groink and I are on the same page - lol @ I just put the pin in the stack and start my set- exactly the same here.

I only know what I'm training that day. I don't know the exercises, how many sets of that exercise I'll do, how long I'll train, there is nothing static than the fact I am in the gym to train. after that it's pretty much wide open.

[wes]

Same here......totally instinctive training for me, other than a set bodypart schedule.......workouts and exercise selection vary from workout to workout, as do poundages..........all depends on how I feel on any given day.

[wes]

Do You Guys think is it possible to make gains on 6 days in week lifting?  

( You don't grow in the gym and other theories like this...   )

Of course,as long as sleep/rest,and nutrition are in order.

It also helps if you`re on gear,and your propensity or lack thereof for putting on muscle mass,ie.,GENETICS.

[Submissionfytr]

If anyone understood the scientific method they would understand the superiority of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer used to formulating their programs. Dorian proved that with below perfect genetics (compared to Wheeler, Levrone and company) a program designed with high intensity and maximum recovery (don't care if u count his warm ups as sets, they were warm ups for him and more importantly he rested a day after working out with weights, this is key) he could beat the worlds best, most genetically gifted , who by most accounts were using double or triple the gear he was using.

[Palpatine Q]

If anyone understood the scientific method they would understand the superiority of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer used to formulating their programs. Dorian proved that with below perfect genetics (compared to Wheeler, Levrone and company) a program designed with high intensity and maximum recovery (don't care if u count his warm ups as sets, they were warm ups for him and more importantly he rested a day after working out with weights, this is key) he could beat the worlds best, most genetically gifted , who by most accounts were using double or triple the gear he was using.

You should write childrens books

[wes]

You should write childrens books

[pellius]

Based on the fact that Mentzer died barely over 40, and the high volume trainers mostly are still alive, I prefer volume, its great cutting too, spending long sessions in the gym lifting weight after weight feels good.

Mentzer was just shy of 50 yo and his training protocol had nothing to do with his mortality.

Lets make a list of all the bodybuilders that have had premature deaths over the last five years and see how many were volume or HIT trainers.
All were volume trainers. But again it had nothing to do with their deaths.

Jeeze, talk about stretching the "facts" to coincide with your world view.

[pellius]

Having trained at Temple Gym for about 15 years I grew up on HIT but after I left and tried volume training I've made so much more progress. Just got to find what works for you, all that heavy duty 6-8 reps a set stuff just doesn't do it for me.

So if you don't train to positive failure how intense do you take a set. Say you can do 200 pounds for ten reps failing to complete an 11th rep. How many reps would you do? 7? 8? 9?

[dyslexic]

Mike's death at his age had nothing to do with Arthur Jones or H.I.T. ~


Even if it really had to do with nothing more than his illicit obsession for meth, I would be more inclined to blame his insane friendship as a Guinea Pig for Dan Duchaine than anything else.


People spend more time analyzing these days than actually working. I guess with the internet and "social media" that is so much easier to do....


I don't remember questioning the weights much... ever. I just remember lifting, eating, sleeping and growing... over and over and over again.

Then we started feeling the need to really "name" everything we did, whether it be a Weider name (which pretty much covered the spectrum) or even today... getting into something as stupid as FST7 and acting like it really carries some credence that another style doesn't.

The only thing that really doesn't work is: inconsistency, light weights, lack of motivation, enthusiasm and desire... and talking too much.


I guess the only other thing that really doesn't work either is... this thing called "natural" bodybuilding. It's an oxymoron. Morons. 

[oldtimer1]

Same here......totally instinctive training for me, other than a set bodypart schedule.......workouts and exercise selection vary from workout to workout, as do poundages..........all depends on how I feel on any given day.

I remember you kept a blog of your training here I believe. So it's instinctive but you wrote down the workout as you went along or after? I can count on my hand how many times I have  trained instinctive. I know so many successful lifters do. Yates said if he trained instinctively he would take a nap instead of hitting the gym. The list of top bodybuilders who use instinctive training is huge.

[Vince B]

If anyone understood the scientific method they would understand the superiority of Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer used to formulating their programs. Dorian proved that with below perfect genetics (compared to Wheeler, Levrone and company) a program designed with high intensity and maximum recovery (don't care if u count his warm ups as sets, they were warm ups for him and more importantly he rested a day after working out with weights, this is key) he could beat the worlds best, most genetically gifted , who by most accounts were using double or triple the gear he was using.

The scientific method is never based on anecdotal experiences. So even if Dorian was successful that hardly proves that Heavy Duty is the best training method. Besides, what about longevity and safety? Any method that causes muscle or connective tissue injuries is hardly a good method. I am convinced that HIT is false. Arthur Jones was perhaps the smartest man to lift a weight and concoct a theory about hypertrophy. His theory is false. High Intensity is not what builds the most muscle mass. How do we know? Well, have a look at what everyone who is big is doing. Volume. There is no other way. HIT has been around for around 45 years. If it produced champions that is how everyone would be training. It never happened. Of course, the HIT believers would say that those who failed via HIT didn't do it right. They didn't lift with enough intensity. Nope, volume with significant resistances and special exercises is what builds large muscles. What a shame because it would have been nice to have those short, brief workouts instead of having to do volume.

[Vince B]

I remember you kept a blog of your training here I believe. So it's instinctive but you wrote down the workout as you went along or after? I can count on my hand how many times I have  trained instinctive. I know so many successful lifters do. Yates said if he trained instinctively he would take a nap instead of hitting the gym. The list of top bodybuilders who use instinctive training is huge.

Seriously, if hypertrophy were related to instinct then we might as well give up talking about it. There is no such thing as instinctive training. How would you describe such training to a scientist so he could test that theory?

[oldtimer1]

Seriously, if hypertrophy were related to instinct then we might as well give up talking about it. There is no such thing as instinctive training. How would you describe such training to a scientist so he could test that theory?

A tested theory is a fact. There are no facts about training protocol. If there was a factual best way to scientifically train we all would be doing the same split, same reps and same exercises. Bodybuilders are not exercise scientists. Some of the dumbest guys around are successful bodybuilders.

Maybe a better way to describe instinctive training would be to label it listening to your recovery. No successful runners run according to heart rate monitors all though I'm sure a few use this tool from time to time. In general if they feel good they push it and if they don't they do what they can do.

Many successful bodybuilders go to the gym with no game plan except they know it's back day. They might start off with chins knowing they started last workout with pulldowns. Next might be narrow V grip low pulley rows and the last workout was barbell rows etc. Maybe they decide on the fly last time was high reps now they are going for 6 to 8 reps. As long as they are perceptively and factually working hard they are stimulating positive adaptation.  

[JasonH]

So if you don't train to positive failure how intense do you take a set. Say you can do 200 pounds for ten reps failing to complete an 11th rep. How many reps would you do? 7? 8? 9?

But I do train to positive failure, always. Is that still classed as HIT regardless of how many reps you do? Sounds like I do a combination of HIT and volume training, as stated by Viking in his reply to me above. Positive failure for me usually involves taking a weight I can do 12-15 reps with and repping out to that point before any negatives or forced reps.

[oldtimer1]

I have been a HIT guy forever but I see the light now. I started HIT protocol in 1977 then followed it for decade after decade. The way I see it if you do one warm up set of say curls, then do your one set to failure of 10 reps did you truly stimulate all muscle fibers? I say no.

A more productive method would be to do 4 sets of 10 reps for barbell curls. The first you stop at 10 knowing you could have reached failure at say 16. The second set you stop at 10 reps this time you could have gotten 13 reps to failure. The third you hit  ten reps and now it's really tough. You could have gotten that 11 rep. On you last set you fail at 9 or 10 reps. Training like this is training for muscular endurance and that's what I believe stimulates muscle growth the best.

If you like HIT train with it. HIT enthusiasts are filled with pompous egotists who think they are scientists because they follow with almost religious fervor Jones and Darden. Jones and Darden biggest deception is that they looked for volume champs then they used their pictures to promote their training protocol. To this day guys still think Sergio Oliva is a HIT guy because he was paid to go down to Florida for a couple of weeks by Jones.  Anyone who has seen Sergio train can attest he trained with volume his whole career. Mentzer and Viator were both observed doing a lot more sets in the gym than what was written.  David Young trained in the same gym as Viator and said he counted 16 sets for one body part. Mentzer was another who after he finished competing pushed one set to failure per body part and many days of rest when he never trained that way during his competitive years.

[Damios]

Of course,as long as sleep/rest,and nutrition are in order.

It also helps if you`re on gear,and your propensity or lack thereof for putting on muscle mass,ie.,GENETICS.

So i don't know why people says "not more than 3/4/5 days! you're going to overtrain even on 1g+ AAS, you grow in home, not in gym etc."

How many days do Guys train typically when you are in "Instinctive Training"? And why no less and no more?

[dyslexic]

Seriously, if hypertrophy were related to instinct then we might as well give up talking about it. There is no such thing as instinctive training. How would you describe such training to a scientist so he could test that theory?

I think we should all start explaining our deepest, darkest and most intimate "feelings" to our muscles....


The end result would be the same.


Ayn Rand's theory/philosophy on life was absurd, and so is H.I.T. when followed with the precision that "objectivity" demanded... and supposedly "science"


Arthur Jones and Mike Mentzer were both geniuses by their own right.


Superior mentality does not give an edge in fitness. And why do we call computer hacks "Geeks?" or those with superior mentality in school "Nerds?"


If it really took a superior amount of intelligence to build copious amounts of muscle....


There would be no such thing as a "Mr. Olympia"

[oldtimer1]

Even HIT guys use perceived exhaustion as a guide to days off.

Regarding Mentzer being a genius, why is this true? I know he told everyone he was repeatedly. He did drop out or flunk out of premed. He made me think and influenced my ideas on training more than any other bodybuilder.

I don't think anyone could say Jones wasn't smart. The question remains the same though. Was Jones right? With all of his knowledge he was a small out of shape looking guy for most of his years. He seemed to be in decent shape for a brief span in his early life. You would think for a guy who knew the answers in exercise he would have applied it to himself during Nautilus's hey day. Yet during Nautilus's prime years he couldn't have weighed over 155lbs and looked really bad.