Author Topic: Calories  (Read 14366 times)

wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Calories
« Reply #125 on: February 12, 2009, 02:03:17 PM »
i have studies that show you do spare more muscle with high fat diets than with high carb, but over 3-4 months the difference is only around a pound or 2, so not really worth the effort of eating dry boring meat everyday IMO.

Were both equal in protein? Was the high fat diet keto?
Would be interested in links if online. 8)

Fatpanda

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9676
  • One getbigger to rule them all.
Re: Calories
« Reply #126 on: February 12, 2009, 02:04:36 PM »
Were both equal in protein? Was the high fat diet keto?
Would be interested in links if online. 8)

pm me your email - i have a great book i'll send you  8) it has all the studies you need.

actually its the best book i've read on nutrition.
175lbs by 31st July

lovemonkey

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7750
  • Two kinds of people; Those that can extrapolate
Re: Calories
« Reply #127 on: February 12, 2009, 02:06:35 PM »
pm me your email - i have a great book i'll send you  8) it has all the studies you need.

actually its the best book i've read on nutrition.

Oh brother.  ::)

The only subject you enlighten anyone on is force feeding.
from incomplete data

Christopher Belinksky

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
  • The Coach loves sticky studs!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Calories
« Reply #128 on: February 12, 2009, 02:09:45 PM »
calories i have addressed.
keto diets - no, i was on one for around 8 months, felt weak, tired, craved carbs the whole time. lost strength, shoulder joints were inflammed and dry, weight loss stalled - even on 1000 cals.

it may be healthier in terms of lipid profiles etc, but i feel 100x better on carbs. i'm stronger, i'm sleeping better ( no more insomnia), and losing weight at 3000cals.

go figure  :-\

 ???

when in ketosis you are more energetic than ever, your body has endless fuel.
you never crave carbs, ketogenic diets are anti inflamatory, weight loss stalled?   ???
and you were on it for 8 months?  ???

can you post your diet?

lovemonkey

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7750
  • Two kinds of people; Those that can extrapolate
Re: Calories
« Reply #129 on: February 12, 2009, 02:10:39 PM »
can you post your diet?

Mcdonalds and fried lard. Repeat.
from incomplete data

Christopher Belinksky

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
  • The Coach loves sticky studs!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Calories
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2009, 02:15:24 PM »
Were both equal in protein? Was the high fat diet keto?
Would be interested in links if online. 8)

ketogenic diets are protein sparing, on a balanced diet, once your body runs out of carbs, it will release cortisol to rise the blood sugar
by breaking down amino acids, this doesn't happen when you are in ketosis.

wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Calories
« Reply #131 on: February 12, 2009, 02:24:16 PM »
ketogenic diets are protein sparing, on a balanced diet, once your body runs out of carbs, it will release cortisol to rise the blood sugar
by breaking down amino acids, this doesn't happen when you are in ketosis.

That's a theory on a certain scientific aspect but not a study on body composition. Plus most bodybuilders seem to do fine on high protein diets that include carbs. I did worse on a keto diet.

big L dawg

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5729
  • i always tell the truth even when i lie...
Re: Calories
« Reply #132 on: February 12, 2009, 02:28:43 PM »
Dave Tate dropped 2 pounds of fat a week on 5100kcal.

-Hope this helps.  :o Btw you should do some research before you pollute the boards with your bs claims.

lost 2 pounds of fat a week.or 2 pounds a week?there's a big difference.
DAWG

dr.chimps

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 28635
  • Chimpus ergo sum
Re: Calories
« Reply #133 on: February 12, 2009, 02:34:42 PM »
lost 2 pounds of fat a week.or 2 pounds a week?there's a big difference.
Dave Tate is a Westside lifter -ie. heavy gear. His 'transformation' is impressive and is documented on-line, but let's be honest, unless you're Luke Wood, losing some pounds on serious gear and using thyroids is not exactly rocket science.     

Ursus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11338
  • Getbig!
Re: Calories
« Reply #134 on: February 12, 2009, 02:35:11 PM »
so far around 3500

dr.chimps

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 28635
  • Chimpus ergo sum
Re: Calories
« Reply #135 on: February 12, 2009, 02:39:27 PM »
so far around 3500
Any of that amount from non-bread viands?   :D

Fatpanda

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 9676
  • One getbigger to rule them all.
Re: Calories
« Reply #136 on: February 12, 2009, 02:41:30 PM »
Any of that amount from non-bread viands?   :D

2000cals is from guiness  ;D
175lbs by 31st July

Ursus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11338
  • Getbig!
Re: Calories
« Reply #137 on: February 12, 2009, 02:44:37 PM »
Any of that amount from non-bread viands?   :D

breakfast...100g of oats with milk

2 bananas, 2 powerade drinks and a small chocolate bar

large subway meal with crisps and coke

2x minced steak burritto

2x packets of skittles, mars duo, coke

tonight i will eat...more bread, oats and a mars duo along with some tuna

dr.chimps

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 28635
  • Chimpus ergo sum
Re: Calories
« Reply #138 on: February 12, 2009, 02:49:39 PM »
breakfast...100g of oats with milk

2 bananas, 2 powerade drinks and a small chocolate bar

large subway meal with crisps and coke

2x minced steak burritto

2x packets of skittles, mars duo, coke

tonight i will eat...more bread, oats and a mars duo along with some tuna
Good on you, Goudy. Enjoy. I'm *ahem* older than you, and if I ate like you I'd need an epinephrine injection.  :D

Ursus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11338
  • Getbig!
Re: Calories
« Reply #139 on: February 12, 2009, 02:50:15 PM »
dude, i like your posts.

what age are you and where abouts are you from. this sounds queer but i was wondering lol

wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Calories
« Reply #140 on: February 12, 2009, 02:58:10 PM »
breakfast...100g of oats with milk

2 bananas, 2 powerade drinks and a small chocolate bar

large subway meal with crisps and coke

2x minced steak burritto

2x packets of skittles, mars duo, coke

tonight i will eat...more bread, oats and a mars duo along with some tuna

Hell yeah Goudy that makes me hungry again.

Christopher Belinksky

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
  • The Coach loves sticky studs!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Calories
« Reply #141 on: February 12, 2009, 03:02:12 PM »
I tried low carb diets and keto diets. I tried just about every diet there is.

That aside, you got any reference to scientific studies on body composition that would prove that (for most people) a keto diet preserves more muscle compared to a high protein diets that includes carbs?

The other points you mentioned are irrelevant for body composition but I would also be interested in studies on those points.

 ???

on the anabolic diet, testosterone and HGH are elevated, insulin and cortisol are decreased
so it is rerelvant

Christopher Belinksky

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
  • The Coach loves sticky studs!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Calories
« Reply #142 on: February 12, 2009, 03:05:10 PM »
breakfast...100g of oats with milk

2 bananas, 2 powerade drinks and a small chocolate bar

large subway meal with crisps and coke

2x minced steak burritto

2x packets of skittles, mars duo, coke

tonight i will eat...more bread, oats and a mars duo along with some tuna

not hating, but if you are 250 pounds (like you claim), you have over 60 pounds of fat to lose to be in contest shape, even at your height
you would not be over 200 on stage.

Christopher Belinksky

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
  • The Coach loves sticky studs!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Calories
« Reply #143 on: February 12, 2009, 03:07:28 PM »
That's a theory on a certain scientific aspect but not a study on body composition. Plus most bodybuilders seem to do fine on high protein diets that include carbs. I did worse on a keto diet.

I have seen you on Muscular Development, we argued enough about this subject on there, you saw the proof  ;)

Ursus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11338
  • Getbig!
Re: Calories
« Reply #144 on: February 12, 2009, 03:12:11 PM »
not hating, but if you are 250 pounds (like you claim), you have over 60 pounds of fat to lose to be in contest shape, even at your height
you would not be over 200 on stage.

I weighed myself at 240lbs in clothes earlier so maybe 233lbs.

To be in contest shape i would have a good 20lbs to lose

wavelength

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10156
  • ~~~
Re: Calories
« Reply #145 on: February 12, 2009, 03:14:04 PM »
on the anabolic diet, testosterone and HGH are elevated, insulin and cortisol are decreased
so it is rerelvant

If this is true and has a significant effect on body composition it would show up in a study about body composition. If not, it's obviously irrelevant for body composition.

I have seen you on Muscular Development, we argued enough about this subject on there, you saw the proof  ;)

Can't remember. Experts with scientific background disagree on the topic. Most experts lean towards a diet that includes carbs. Most bodybuilders follow a diet that includes carbs. My body composition got worse on a keto diet. Some people do well on it though.

Christopher Belinksky

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
  • The Coach loves sticky studs!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Calories
« Reply #146 on: February 12, 2009, 03:58:25 PM »
If this is true and has a significant effect on body composition it would show up in a study about body composition. If not, it's obviously irrelevant for body composition.

Can't remember. Experts with scientific background disagree on the topic. Most experts lean towards a diet that includes carbs. Most bodybuilders follow a diet that includes carbs. My body composition got worse on a keto diet. Some people do well on it though.

In this age of the obesity epidemic, some careful work reported in the May issue of the Journal by Johnston et al (1) provides more information to help solve the problem. With strict controls in a 6-wk trial, they directly compared 2 diets: a ketogenic very-low carbohydrate (KLC) diet and a nonketogenic low-carbohydrate (NLC) diet. They concluded that the KLC and NLC diets were equally effective in reducing body weight and insulin resistance, but the KLC diet was associated with several adverse metabolic and emotional effects. Thus, the use of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted. This conclusion is amplified by the article's title and by its final sentence: "Patients should know that there is no apparent metabolic advantage associated with ketosis during dieting."

As shown in Table 1 of the article by Johnston et al, the 2 diets were equal in energy content (1500 kcal/d). The major nutrients provided daily by the KLC and NLC diets, respectively, were as follows: 33 and 157 g carbohydrate, 125 and 117 g protein, 100 and 50 g total fat, 35 and 13 g saturated fat, 34 and 16 g monounsaturated fat, 14 and 7 g polyunsaturated fat, 15 and 30 g fiber, and 620 and 230 mg cholesterol. Could some of the adverse metabolic effects reported in this study support the long-expressed concerns about the high-fat Atkins diet? Specifically, should the conclusion of Johnston et al have been that a ketogenic diet that is high in saturated fat and cholesterol is not warranted for weight loss? It can be shown that a blanket rejection of ketogenic diets for weight loss is not warranted.

It is safe to assume that no species could have survived millions of years if its members could not tolerate occasional brief periods of natural starvation, which itself is ketogenic. In fact, everyone approaches ketogenesis in the sleep portion of every diurnal cycle. If only water is ingested, stores of liver glycogen decrease steadily to zero in the first 12–24 h (2, 3). The body then must rely heavily on its vital gluconeogenesis capability to meet the needs of the body for glucose when carbohydrate is not available in sufficient amounts from the diet or from glycogen reserves. A supply of glucose is necessary, especially for the nervous system and erythrocytes. Death usually results if gluconeogenesis fails (2). At the same time, concentrations of insulin and glucose decrease (glucose decreases toward 3 mmol/L) while glucagon increases. These changes initiate a strong increase in the concentration of free fatty acids as the body switches from the fed state to the starved state. Although slightly delayed, the concentration of blood ketone bodies increases from a negligible value to 2 mmol/L (2, 3). As noted decades ago, after 3 d, hunger decreases considerably as the concentration of these ketone bodies continues to increase to >4 mmol/L (3, 4). Ketosis arises because the major fuel being burned is fat from body stores. The brain spares some glucose by using these ketone bodies. This mild ketosis is the body's natural adaptation to starvation and is not to be confused with the dangerous ketoacidosis associated with untreated type 1 diabetes. When zero calories are ingested, the maximum possible rate of weight loss occurs, and there will likely not be a flat weight-loss plateau. Of course, the ingestion of zero calories for an extended time is not healthful because of the total lack of vital nutrients of all kinds.

The protein-sparing modified fast (PSMF) is a human-engineered variation on natural starvation designed to extend the period of rapid weight loss and low hunger while preventing the body from catabolizing itself. Because of the special biochemical importance of glucose, essentially the same changes as described above for starvation take place if little glucose-producing food (carbohydrate) is ingested, despite the fact that protein and fat are still being ingested. Ketostix (Bayer Corporation, Elkhart, IN) can be used to verify the presence of ketosis in 3 d. Enough protein must be eaten to provide for the usual daily needs for amino acids plus enough to supply the now-required gluconeogenesis. The total amount of protein needed is not large, 1.3 g protein/kg ideal body wt (5). In this 1976 article, Bistrian et al conclude that "For diabetics with some endogenous insulin reserve, the PSMF offers significant advantages for weight reduction, including preservation of lean body mass (as reflected in nitrogen balance) and withdrawal of exogenous insulin." The small amount of carbohydrate allowed must be chosen carefully to maximize the nutrients per gram of carbohydrate.

A controlled study compared reports of appetite and symptoms in 28 obese subjects randomly assigned to either a 500-kcal PSMF or a 1200-kcal balanced diet (6). During the first comparison month, the subjects who consumed the PSMF lost significantly more weight and reported significantly less hunger than did the subjects who consumed the balanced diet; the former group reported significantly greater problems with cold intolerance, constipation, dizziness, dry skin, and fatigue. A ketogenic diet was developed early in the 20th century to successfully treat children with drug refractory epilepsy (7). A direct comparison showed that saturated fat is undesirable even when a high-fat ketogenic diet is required, as in special treatments of refractory epilepsy (8). A 2-wk carefully controlled inpatient study showed that a ketogenic diet was beneficial for the control of weight and blood glucose concentrations in diabetic patients. Cutting carbohydrate consumption to 20 g/d produced a spontaneous reduction in calories of 1000 kcal/d with little change in hunger, diet satisfaction, or energy levels (9).

Clearly, one major advantage of the ketogenic diet is that it allows the calorie intake to be cut drastically without producing ravenous hunger. A suggestion for extending the benefits of ketogenic weight-loss diets would be to alternate 1–3 wk of the PSMF with longer periods of the Heller plan (10). The Heller plan allows for one full, healthful, balanced meal plus snacks daily that follow a PSMF protocol. This would enable the consumption of useful amounts of vital plant foods while taking the body back and forth through the entire cycle of emptying (23 h) and refilling (1 h) the liver's glycogen stores.

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS

No conflicts of interest were reported.

REFERENCES


Johnston CS, Tjonn SL, Swan PD, White A, Hutchins H, Sears B. Ketogenic low-carbohydrate diets have no metabolic advantage over nonketogenic low-carbohydrate diets. Am J Clin Nutr 2006;83:1055–61.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
Murray RK, Granner DK, Mayes PA, Rodwell VW. Harpers illustrated biochemistry. 26th ed. New York, NY: Lange Medical Books/McGraw-Hill, 2003.
Bender, DA. Introduction to nutrition and metabolism. 3rd ed. New York, NY: Taylor & Francis, 2002.
Ezrin C, Kowalski RE. The type II diabetes diet book. Los Angeles, CA: Lowell House, 1995.
Bistrian BR, Blackburn GL, Flatt JP, Sizer J, Scrimshaw NS, Sherman M. Nitrogen metabolism and insulin requirements in obese diabetic adults on a protein-sparing modified fast. Diabetes 1976;25:494–504.[Abstract]
Wadden TA, Stunkard AJ, Day SC, Gould RA, Rubin CJ. Less food, less hunger: reports of appetite and symptoms in a controlled study of a protein-sparing modified fast. Int J Obes 1987;11:239–49.[Medline]
Mandel A, Ballew M, Pina-Garza JE, Stalmasek V, Clemens LH. Medical costs are reduced when children with intractable epilepsy are successfully treated with the ketogenic diet. J Am Diet Assoc 2002;102:396–8.[Medline]
Fuehrlein BS, Rutenberg MS, Silver JN, et al. Differential metabolic effects of saturated versus polyunsaturated fats in ketogenic diets. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2004;89:1641–5.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
Boden G, Sargrad K, Homko C, Mozzoli M, Stein TP. Effect of a low-carbohydrate diet on appetite, blood glucose levels, and insulin resistance in obese patients with type 2 diabetes. Ann Intern Med 2005;142:403–11.[Abstract/Free Full Text]
Heller RF, Heller RF, Vagnini FJ. The carbohydrate addict’s healthy heart program. New York, NY: Ballantine Publishing Group/Random House, 1999.

Ursus

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 11338
  • Getbig!
Re: Calories
« Reply #147 on: February 12, 2009, 03:59:27 PM »
noone will read that. i wouldnt.

Oh yea im around 4300 cals atm :)

Eyeball Chambers

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 14348
  • Would you hold still? You're making me fuck up...
Re: Calories
« Reply #148 on: February 12, 2009, 04:00:28 PM »
noone will read that. i wouldnt.

Oh yea im around 4300 cals atm :)

lol

Goudy could get into contest shape eating prime rib and baked potatoes every night for dinner.
S

tbombz

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19350
  • Psalms 150
Re: Calories
« Reply #149 on: February 12, 2009, 04:01:25 PM »
ketogenic diets are protein sparing, on a balanced diet, once your body runs out of carbs, it will release cortisol to rise the blood sugar
by breaking down amino acids, this doesn't happen when you are in ketosis.
im not on either side of the agrument, both work, however cortisol is released whether your dieting on low fat or low carb.