Obama is clearly pussing out (Malaysian Airlines flight)

[Roger Bacon]

Who benefits?

Russia certainly doesn't.

[WannaBePro]

how is it known that the separatists were given SAM by Russia? also how would it help their cause shooting this plane down?

I was watching TYT and Cenk gave some good reasons why Russia may have given surface-to-air missiles to the rebels <- I don't take that as gospel, but some interesting facts in there. But as for how it would help their cause. It doesn't. These rebels aren't military trained and can't tell a jet from a passenger airliner. There is a recording between their commander and some of the grunts when they find out that they hit a civilian plane, and everyone is shocked and trying to find a way to make it seem like it was the Malaysia flight's fault for being shot down (carrying spies and whatnot). http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/18/mh17-recording-russian-colonel-rebels-discuss-disaster-video. Russia is also holding the black box from the plane right now, which makes it seem like maybe they had something to do with it.

[WannaBePro]

Who benefits?

Russia certainly doesn't.

No one benefits. If Russia was smart they'd distance themselves from the rebels right about now.
The people who actually shot the rockets are idiots with weaponry they shouldn't be allowed to operate. No military training and all anger against Ukraine.

[DroppingPlates]

Obama is clearly... fucking with your mind

[Rami]

It's becoming obvious Russia has something over USA that can not be disclosed, that's why we see Obama obeying Putin's commands.

hot mic of peace

[Conker]

tbf the US has probably killed more innocents worldwide than all other nations put together in the last decade or so. so probably not really their place to start pointing the finger now.

[Shockwave]

tbf the US has probably killed more innocents worldwide than all other nations put together in the last decade or so. so probably not really their place to start pointing the finger now.

Lol, no, not a chance. Still not our place to be world police, but to say we've killed more innocents than every nation combined in the last decade is a little sensationalist.

[affeman]

Do really believe Obama makes these decisions?

This. It cracks me up when sheeple tend to think Obama is the most powerful man on the planet and has the power to decide AYNTHING of importance. Obama is an actor, that's it.

[Mr. MB]

tbf the US has probably killed more innocents worldwide than all other nations put together in the last decade or so. so probably not really their place to start pointing the finger now.

Fact check. Lets take Burundi (Africa) alone. 125,000+. Zero USA involvement except for humanitarian food and medicine drops. Millions have been killed in local, cross border and tribal warfare/revolution. Almost one million girl babies are snuffed each year in China. We can go on and on.

Has the USA killed innocents in and near battle fields and or a few hundred with drones? Yes. Were most of the innocents placed near armament by the local military as shields ( think Hamas) YES.

Take all the free USA medicine, natural disaster relief, agriculture/water well assistance away. Another million dead? What country would step up to fill our gap  if we were no more?

[Conker]

Lol, no, not a chance. Still not our place to be world police, but to say we've killed more innocents than every nation combined in the last decade is a little sensationalist.

well perhaps not directly but as a result of US military action the death toll is very high

"The death toll among Iraqis as a result of the US-led invasion has now reached an estimated 655,000, a study in the Lancet medical journal reports today."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/11/iraq.iraq

and i think those figs are quite conservative compared to others.

[Lustral]

No one benefits. If Russia was smart they'd distance themselves from the rebels right about now.
The people who actually shot the rockets are idiots with weaponry they shouldn't be allowed to operate. No military training and all anger against Ukraine.

ISIS have US weapons they seized from Iraq and probably US cash from central back in Mosul that will now be used in Syria and I'm sure at some stage against Americans. What happens when you arm these mercenaries.

Obama should use this as leverage to stop Russia doing the same thing arming militias in the future. People in Poland and some Baltic states are nervous watching the Ukraine situation and it was going unopposed. This should stop Russia trying to expand into the EU.

[Conker]

Fact check. Lets take Burundi (Africa) alone. 125,000+. Zero USA involvement except for humanitarian food and medicine drops. Millions have been killed in local, cross border and tribal warfare/revolution. Almost one million girl babies are snuffed each year in China. We can go on and on.

Has the USA killed innocents in and near battle fields and or a few hundred with drones? Yes. Were most of the innocents placed near armament by the local military as shields ( think Hamas) YES.

Take all the free USA medicine, natural disaster relief, agriculture/water well assistance away. Another million dead? What country would step up to fill our gap  if we were no more?

yeh but are any of these other blood thirsty tribes trying to take on the role of the world's moral compass?

[ChopperRider]

Granted, do I think that Obama should have a little more testicular fortitude and actually command respect across the world? Absolutely.

Do I think that he is confused and doesn't have a true foreign policy, which in turn makes us look foolish in our stance as a global power? Yes.

Do I think there is a perfect answer in how to properly deal with Russia? No. Putin is a bad mothefucker and I think that while we can beat the shit out of them in all out war, it won't be before a few of his nukes erase a few major US cities/states.

Russia is just too complicated. I think we would have more success in dealing with both Iran and North Korea, than we would towards Russia.

"1"

I agree.....and wish someone would shut John fucking McCain up and put him out to pasture.

[240 is Back]

They backed down from Kennedy.

i thought kennedy secretly conceded to their demand we pull missiles from Turkey, and 6 months later, he did?  that was the agreement they made to avoid WWIII?

I always thought JFK won the PR battle on this, but ruskies won the strategic goal.

[WannaBePro]

ISIS have US weapons they seized from Iraq and probably US cash from central back in Mosul that will now be used in Syria and I'm sure at some stage against Americans. What happens when you arm these mercenaries.

Obama should use this as leverage to stop Russia doing the same thing arming militias in the future. People in Poland and some Baltic states are nervous watching the Ukraine situation and it was going unopposed. This should stop Russia trying to expand into the EU.

As much as I'd like to agree, I think the US just doesn't care. Ukraine doesn't have any natural resources (oil), they've never been a sovereign nation for more than a few decades at a time (always under Polish or Russian rule), and they really have nothing else to offer other. I mean, Obama could engage in a dick-waving contest with Putin but in reality Putin is going to do what he wants and Obama is going to "condemn it" but do nothing about it.
I think, if anyone, it should be the EU making moves at this point, they're the ones being threatened by a Russian invasion.

[Lustral]

As much as I'd like to agree, I think the US just doesn't care. Ukraine doesn't have any natural resources (oil), they've never been a sovereign nation for more than a few decades at a time (always under Polish or Russian rule), and they really have nothing else to offer other. I mean, Obama could engage in a dick-waving contest with Putin but in reality Putin is going to do what he wants and Obama is going to "condemn it" but do nothing about it.
I think, if anyone, it should be the EU making moves at this point, they're the ones being threatened by a Russian invasion.

For one, the EU is dependent, as I stated above, on Russian gas and to a lesser extent oil. Any sanctions we impose hurt us.

Secondly, the EU is horribly reticent to take any decisive action, Brussels is full of unelected technocrats and bureaucrats who can't make a hard decision. Only the UK and, to some extent France, have a military of any use. Germany, the richest country, has nothing of use. I can't see it coming to conflict but walk softly and carry a big stick... where's the big stick though?

The last 6 years has shown just how inept the EU is - it aspires to be a single entity, always doomed to fail and despised by citizens of all countries, yet national leaders all pander to the voters of their nations while ignoring the greater good of the union. It is fucked.

[Bosch]

Do I think there is a perfect answer in how to properly deal with Russia? No. Putin is a bad mothefucker and I think that while we can beat the shit out of them in all out war, it won't be before a few of his nukes erase a few major US cities/states.

Russia is just too complicated. I think we would have more success in dealing with both Iran and North Korea, than we would towards Russia.

It is not that relevant who can beat who in case of Russia. That all out war you're talking about is not possible. Such talks could work on Syria or Iraq.
It is common knowledge that if 3rd World War will happen it will be nuclear war and if even main cities of opposing countries will be erased there is enough automatics and nuclear sites all around the world which will trigger on and plunge all planet into nuclear winter. For me such scenario seems kinda unrealistic, who the hell needs that? In modern world negotiations are the only way for coexistance between nuclear-weapon states.

[Mr.1derful]

It is so obvious separatists in Ukraine/Russian "volunteers" shot down the Malaysian Airlines flight. It is known that Russia recently gave separatists SAM with the capability to reach 15000m with a 45k range. Earlier there were news stories on Russian media re separatists shooting Ukrainian military airplane that were removed when it was learned it was a civilian airline.

Now Obama has called it a "terrible tragedy" after talking to Putin. I would be embarrassed if I was American. You are being walked on by Putin and laughed at. What a coward, he would have waved the Russians through in 1962 saying they were taking a vacation in Cuba.

It's also so obvious, according to Victoria Nuland herself, that the U.S spent $5 billion to overthrow Ukraine in a violent coup.  Ukraine should not be any of the West's business.  Putin and Russia have no benefit to gain from perpetrating an attack on a civilian airliner. 

[Lustral]

It's also so obvious, according to Victoria Nuland herself, that the U.S spent $5 billion to overthrow Ukraine in a violent coup.  Ukraine should not be any of the West's business.  Putin and Russia have no benefit to gain from perpetrating an attack on a civilian airliner. 

Agreed, but when they shot at it they thought it was a Ukrainian military craft, that's the problem with giving weapons to rebels, they don't have the information to go with the hardware they were donated. See my post re boasts on Russian media followed by deletion. This was 18 hours or so before US stance that it was separatists became public.

[Lustral]

Just heard some Aussie aviation expert on Sky News. He said it perfectly.


1) US are so anal about what you bring in bags (this new battery thing is complete bollox) yet they, and ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) said 32,000 feet was acceptable height to fly over this area. This plane was at 33k feet, they knew these missiles were in rebel hands yet were negligent, despite harassing passengers over irrelevant bullshit.


2) 28 Aussies died, this should not go unpunished/without reprimand. It IS an act of war; once we find out who did what we must act against them, albeit probably through diplomatic channels. You can't ignore English, Aussie and Dutch citizens dying like you can the Malaysians, shitty as that sounds.

[devilsmile]

Just heard some Aussie aviation expert on Sky News. He said it perfectly.


1) US are so anal about what you bring in bags (this new battery thing is complete bollox) yet they, and ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) said 32,000 feet was acceptable height to fly over this area. This plane was at 33k feet, they knew these missiles were in rebel hands yet were negligent, despite harassing passengers over irrelevant bullshit.


2) 28 Aussies died, this should not go unpunished/without reprimand. It IS an act of war; once we find out who did what we must act against them, albeit probably through diplomatic channels. You can't ignore English, Aussie and Dutch citizens dying like you can the Malaysians, shitty as that sounds.

no racist

[Lustral]

no racist

I'm sure planes crash in Burundi from time to time. Ethnocentricity my friend.

[devilsmile]

I'm sure planes crash in Burundi from time to time. Ethnocentricity my friend.

Got ya 

[Roger Bacon]

I read that the path this plane took actually wasn't a standard flight path. That this flight was diverted around 30 miles north of the common flight path? Anyone know if this is true?

[Lustral]

I read that the path this plane took actually wasn't a standard flight path. That this flight was diverted around 30 miles north of the common flight path? Anyone know if this is true?

No it was on right flight path, but advice ICAO gave was poor given situation there and what they knew of mercenary's capabilities.

My initial theory that it was Russian separatists has been all but confirmed.