5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death

[RRKore]

By this logic, iif  someone is caught speeding and then shot by the cops with a rocket launcher, that person plays a part in their own death. Not only would shooting the speeder with a rocketlauncher be an overreaction, but it would be an ILLEGAL overreaction. Cops have the right to get physical with resisters, but that particular hold is illegal because this particular outcome is completely foreseeable. Police officers, in theory at least, are supposed to be trained to handle difficult situation without resorting to illegal tactics. The outcome of this situation lies solely in the hands of the cop who performed the illegal chokehold.

The victim's parents are also partially responsible.  If the victim had never been born, then he'd never have been shot with the rocket.

[Dos Equis]

The chokehold is illegal. It's illegal because it can lead to death unexpectedly. The man's being irate played no more a part in his death than him being an oxygen-consuming organism did. Saying the man played a role in his own death IS an intellectually dishonest attempt to justify the cop's actions. (I know intellectual dishonesty is your stock-in-trade, BB, but even for you this is weak.)

Your position is illogical.  If you are saying he would have been put in a chokehold had he not been irate and resisted arrest, then you are being intellectually dishonest.  

And if you actually read what I said, I specifically said the fact the man played a role in his own death does not justify illegal behavior by cops (assuming what they did was illegal).

Don't confuse an explanation with justification.

[tonymctones]

Maybe.  After all, he was a large and scary Hebrew.

Lol indeed, yes he was

As it's a maybe though and we have no reason to believe they would especially with a camera in their face and tons of witness I think the answer is no they wouldnt have

[tonymctones]

Don't confuse an explanation with justification.

Too late for that, nobody seems to understand you can condemn both his actions and the cops actions.

[Al Doggity]

Your position is illogical.  If you are saying he would have been put in a chokehold had he not been irate and resisted arrest, then you are being intellectually dishonest.  

Right....because you neverrrr hear about cops abusing their authority.

And if you actually read what I said, I specifically said the fact the man played a role in his own death does not justify illegal behavior by cops (assuming what they did was illegal).

Don't confuse an explanation with justification.

Google . Explanation-a reason or justification given for an action or belief.

[tonymctones]

The victim's parents are also partially responsible.  If the victim had never been born, then he'd never have been shot with the rocket.

Again not a equivalent scenario...if a person is pulled over for speeding and then refuses orders and then resists arrest yes that person plays a role in the escalation of the situation and had responsibility for the outcome as well.

Again would the cops have gotten physical and put him in a chokehold if he had followed orders and not resisted?

[tonymctones]

Right....because you neverrrr hear about cops abusing their authority

Hahah so it's your assertion that the cops where going to put him in a choke hold regardless of whether or not he refused orders and resisted arrest.

Lol well I can see how your retarded ass comes to the conclusion that his actions didn't escalate the situation then.

Fucking wow!!!

[Dos Equis]

Too late for that, nobody seems to understand you can condemn both his actions and the cops actions.

Correct. 

[RRKore]

Lol indeed, yes he was

As it's a maybe though and we have no reason to believe they would especially with a camera in their face and tons of witness I think the answer is no they wouldnt have

FWIW, Gracie brothers Rener and Ryron did a "Gracie breakdown" of the whole incident.  Holy fuck Rener is too long-winded for me to have watched the whole thing but I gather that they conclude that the "choke" wasn't what killed the guy.
Instead it was the weight of all the officers on top of a seriously overweight dude with asthma.  

BTW, they have done some Gracie breakdowns of other fairly well-known streetfight videos that are much more entertaining than this one.

[Al Doggity]

That was the point of the comparison. logicmaster. It's a technique called "reduction to absurdity". There is no scenario in which a cop shooting a motorist with a rocket launcher is partially the motorist's fault.

[tonymctones]

FWIW, Gracie brothers Rener and Ryron did a "Gracie breakdown" of the whole incident.  Holy fuck Rener is too long-winded for me to have watched the whole thing but I gather that they conclude that the "choke" wasn't what killed the guy.
Instead it was the weight of all the officers on top of a seriously overweight dude with asthma. 

BTW, they have done some Gracie breakdowns of other fairly well-known streetfight videos that are much more entertaining than this one.

Hmmm pretty cool, didn't know they did things like this. I will probably kill a few hours with this.

[tonymctones]

That was the point of the comparison. logicmaster. It's a technique called "reduction to absurdity". There is no scenario in which a cop shooting a motorist with a rocket launcher is partially the motorist's fault.

Goodness you're a fucking idiot

Nobody is justifying the cops excessive use of force you FUCKING MORON!!!!

[Dos Equis]

Right....because you neverrrr hear about cops abusing their authority.


Google . Explanation-a reason or justification given for an action or belief.

I never said cops don't abuse their authority.  

You are confused.  Explaining why something happened does not by itself justify conduct.  Take someone who turns out to be a career criminal (like the guy who is the subject of this story).  It's highly possible he came from a dysfunctional environment (absent father, drugs, poverty, etc.).  That would help explain why he became a career criminal, because a person's upbringing is a predictor of success and failure.  But it wouldn't justify any of his crimes.

[RRKore]

Hmmm pretty cool, didn't know they did things like this. I will probably kill a few hours with this.

The MMA ones are sometimes very good. 

One thing that might get on your nerves is that you can tell that Rener is the son of Rorion (who is/was a lawyer), lol.

[Al Doggity]

Goodness you're a fucking idiot

Nobody is justifying the cops excessive use of force you FUCKING MORON!!!!

You have done that several times in this thread.

[tonymctones]

The MMA ones are sometimes very good.  

One thing that might get on your nerves is that you can tell that Rener is the son of Rorion (who is/was a lawyer), lol.

I think id be more interested in the street fight ones

[tonymctones]

You have done that several times in this thread.

Like I said you're a fucking idiot. Have a nice day shit stain.

[Al Doggity]

I never said cops don't abuse their authority.  

You are confused.  Explaining why something happened does not by itself justify conduct.  Take someone who turns out to be a career criminal (like the guy who is the subject of this story).  It's highly possible he came from a dysfunctional environment (absent father, drugs, poverty, etc.).  That would help explain why he became a career criminal, because a person's upbringing is a predictor of success and failure.  But it wouldn't justify any of his crimes.

Yes, but when you get to the point where you are saying that the victims of his crimes play a part in being his victims through interacting with him, then you are attempting to justify his crimes.

[Dos Equis]

Yes, but when you get to the point where you are saying that the victims of his crimes play a part in being his victims through interacting with him, then you are attempting to justify his crimes.

Arguably.  That's not my position and it doesn't sound like tony is taking that position either. 

Do you think the man would have been put in a chokehold if he was not irate and didn't resist arrest?

[RRKore]

I think id be more interested in the street fight ones

Check this one then.  (Go to about 3:32 to skip the plug for their seminars):

[Al Doggity]

Arguably.  That's not my position and it doesn't sound like tony is taking that position either. 

Do you think the man would have been put in a chokehold if he was not irate and didn't resist arrest?

Let me ask you this...
and I feel it's a direct comparison, but if you disagree, just tell me why.

If a child misbehaves and a parent or teacher beats that child until it dies,  does the child play a part in its death.

My opinion: only in the most rudimentary sense in that the child may have been a catalyst for the parent's temper at that particular moment. The parent is in a position of authority. They don't get the benefit of behaving on the level of a child to deal with a child's behavior. If a cop overreacts to a situation using an illegal tactic, when that tactic results in death, it's that cops fault. It's not a split. You say you're not justifying the cop's actions, but when you say that the cop used the chokehold because of the victim's actions, that is what you are doing. He was supposedly a trained cop. The nature of the job is to deal with people who are difficult. He shouldn't have resorted to n illegal and deadly move.

[RRKore]

Arguably.  That's not my position and it doesn't sound like tony is taking that position either. 

Do you think the man would have been put in a chokehold if he was not irate and didn't resist arrest?

He might have been.  Cops being violent with folks who are complying is hardly unheard of.  In this particular case, the guy was large and scary enough to be threatening to many cops even if he'd been reciting nursery rhymes. 

Check out youtube if you want to see evidence of this kind of thing happening.

Probably what bugs some folks is that it seems like some folks would rather focus on the relatively minor mistakes made by the dead man instead of the major mistakes made by the cops.  A lot of folks, I think, will do this because they have an agenda of some kind.

I don't really think Tony's doing this, btw.  If I were to try to get into Tony's head, I'd say he's saying what he's saying because he's thinking to himself about how he'd try to avoid getting killed if he were in the same situation as the big black dead guy.  And, clearly, total compliance is the best strategy if the goal is to come out of the situation alive.

Lastly, though, it's a sad state of affairs when one has to totally comply with some idiotic/dishonest cops over some illegal cigarette allegations simply to stay alive.

[Dos Equis]

Let me ask you this...
and I feel it's a direct comparison, but if you disagree, just tell me why.

If a child misbehaves and a parent or teacher beats that child until it dies,  does the child play a part in its death.

My opinion: only in the most rudimentary sense in that the child may have been a catalyst for the parent's temper at that particular moment. The parent is in a position of authority. They don't get the benefit of behaving on the level of a child to deal with a child's behavior. If a cop overreacts to a situation using an illegal tactic, when that tactic results in death, it's that cops fault. It's not a split. You say you're not justifying the cop's actions, but when you say that the cop used the chokehold because of the victim's actions, that is what you are doing. He was supposedly a trained cop. The nature of the job is to deal with people who are difficult. He shouldn't have resorted to n illegal and deadly move.

I don't believe comparing the actions of a child with those of a career criminal is a direct comparison.  No, I don't think a child who misbehaves at school and then is beaten at home contributed to his or own death.  I'm talking about this particular situation.    

Also, you didn't answer my question: Do you think this particular man would have been put in a chokehold if he was not irate and didn't resist arrest?

[Dos Equis]

He might have been.  Cops being violent with folks who are complying is hardly unheard of.  In this particular case, the guy was large and scary enough to be threatening to many cops even if he'd been reciting nursery rhymes. 

Check out youtube if you want to see evidence of this kind of thing happening.

Probably what bugs some folks is that it seems like some folks would rather focus on the relatively minor mistakes made by the dead man instead of the major mistakes made by the cops.  A lot of folks, I think, will do this because they have an agenda of some kind.

I don't really think Tony's doing this, btw.  If I were to try to get into Tony's head, I'd say he's saying what he's saying because he's thinking to himself about how he'd try to avoid getting killed if he were in the same situation as the big black dead guy.  And, clearly, total compliance is the best strategy if the goal is to come out of the situation alive.

Lastly, though, it's a sad state of affairs when one has to totally comply with some idiotic/dishonest cops over some illegal cigarette allegations simply to stay alive.

I'm sure cops have abused their authority in the past.  This particular dude is clearly not one of those folks who was being cooperative. 

One of the rules of society is you don't fight with cops.  If they want to arrest you, and you believe you're innocent, the time to fight it is NOT when they're trying to put handcuffs on.  That's plain stupid. 

[RRKore]

I'm sure cops have abused their authority in the past.  This particular dude is clearly not one of those folks who was being cooperative. 

One of the rules of society is you don't fight with cops.  If they want to arrest you, and you believe you're innocent, the time to fight it is NOT when they're trying to put handcuffs on.  That's plain stupid. 

If "abusing their authority in the past" includes physical abuse that still goes on today, then I agree.

In fact, except for you introducing the the word "fighting" when talking about this guy dying, I agree with your whole post. 

In the guy's defense, though, he'd been previously arrested 31 times*, all for non-violent offenses, so he was probably at the end of his rope, emotionally.

You can sympathize, can't you?  I mean, as pissy as you get here on this board, BB, I'd bet you aren't beyond acting similarly.  (You probably ARE smart enough to back off and shut up when you see that arresting you and not just hassling you is the intent of the cops, though.)

*31 times arrested probably means at least a couple of times that number hassled but not arrested.  Not helped at all by the big dead guy's memorable appearance, I'm thinking;  Like Naimond with his distinctive hair in The Wire, some guys are liable to draw more attention than others just because they look different/memorable.