Author Topic: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death  (Read 54567 times)

Dos Equis

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #75 on: July 23, 2014, 01:39:55 PM »
If "abusing their authority in the past" includes physical abuse that still goes on today, then I agree.

In fact, except for you introducing the the word "fighting" when talking about this guy dying, I agree with your whole post. 

In the guy's defense, though, he'd been previously arrested 31 times*, all for non-violent offenses, so he was probably at the end of his rope, emotionally.

You can sympathize, can't you?  I mean, as pissy as you get here on this board, BB, I'd bet you aren't beyond acting similarly.  (You probably ARE smart enough to back off and shut up when you see that arresting you and not just hassling you is the intent of the cops, though.)

*31 times arrested probably means at least a couple of times that number hassled but not arrested.  Not helped at all by the big dead guy's memorable appearance, I'm thinking;  Like Naimond with his distinctive hair in The Wire, some guys are liable to draw more attention than others just because they look different/memorable.



I never get "pissy" on the board.  You're just hypersensitive.  I don't think I've ever been literally upset over anything anyone has said on here. 

I cannot sympathize with someone who has been arrested 31 times.  How the heck does that even happen?? 

And no, I'm not saying he deserved to die. 

Donny

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #76 on: July 23, 2014, 01:43:12 PM »
I never get "pissy" on the board.  You're just hypersensitive.  I don't think I've ever been literally upset over anything anyone has said on here. 

I cannot sympathize with someone who has been arrested 31 times.  How the heck does that even happen?? 

And no, I'm not saying he deserved to die. 
so you are a cop or ex cop ?

Dos Equis

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #77 on: July 23, 2014, 01:46:36 PM »
so you are a cop or ex cop ?

Nope.  But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night . . . .

Skip8282

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #78 on: July 23, 2014, 04:04:36 PM »
LMFAO I am in no way defending the cops. I am being intellectually honest is all.

A man has no right to get physical with his woman. The cops DO!!!!

Now the amount of physical force was OBVIOUSLY excessive that doesnt excuse the man escalating the situation.

Everyone in the situation could have handled themselves better, do you agree?


Getting 'physical' with the guy is not the issue.

Excessive force is the issue and the cops DO NOT have a right to do so, anymore than the abusive husband has a right to get 'physical'.

Blaming the victim for the actions of the abuser is completely absurd.


Skip8282

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #79 on: July 23, 2014, 04:06:40 PM »
Too late for that, nobody seems to understand you can condemn both his actions and the cops actions.





This has nothing to do with condemning his actions.  I don't think he should have resisted - unless the arrest was unlawful.

But that's not the issue here.

The issue is your attempt to blame the victim for the actions of the abuser.


tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #80 on: July 23, 2014, 04:22:49 PM »


This has nothing to do with condemning his actions.  I don't think he should have resisted - unless the arrest was unlawful.

But that's not the issue here.

The issue is your attempt to blame the victim for the actions of the abuser.


im not blaming him for their excessive actions, their actions where wrong no matter what. Fact of the matter is without his actions of refusing orders and resisting arrest none of that would have occured.

He helped create the enviroment where a physical altercation was needed. AGAIN THERE IS NO DENYING THIS

tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #81 on: July 23, 2014, 04:23:45 PM »

Getting 'physical' with the guy is not the issue.

Excessive force is the issue and the cops DO NOT have a right to do so, anymore than the abusive husband has a right to get 'physical'.

Blaming the victim for the actions of the abuser is completely absurd.
So you agree they cops had the right to get physical with him? not to the degree they did but to engage him physically?


tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #82 on: July 23, 2014, 04:25:51 PM »
Let me ask you this...
and I feel it's a direct comparison, but if you disagree, just tell me why.

If a child misbehaves and a parent or teacher beats that child until it dies,  does the child play a part in its death.

My opinion: only in the most rudimentary sense in that the child may have been a catalyst for the parent's temper at that particular moment. The parent is in a position of authority. They don't get the benefit of behaving on the level of a child to deal with a child's behavior. If a cop overreacts to a situation using an illegal tactic, when that tactic results in death, it's that cops fault. It's not a split. You say you're not justifying the cop's actions, but when you say that the cop used the chokehold because of the victim's actions, that is what you are doing. He was supposedly a trained cop. The nature of the job is to deal with people who are difficult. He shouldn't have resorted to n illegal and deadly move.
LMFAO if a crack head goes and robs a drug dealer and gets shot and killed, are the crack heads actions partly to blame for his death?

tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #83 on: July 23, 2014, 04:34:08 PM »
Probably what bugs some folks is that it seems like some folks would rather focus on the relatively minor mistakes made by the dead man instead of the major mistakes made by the cops.  A lot of folks, I think, will do this because they have an agenda of some kind.
the people focusing on it are the ones who have an issue seeing that without his resisting arrest and refusing orders that the physical confrontation would have never happend. I made one comment and BAM!!!

I don't really think Tony's doing this, btw.  If I were to try to get into Tony's head, I'd say he's saying what he's saying because he's thinking to himself about how he'd try to avoid getting killed if he were in the same situation as the big black dead guy.  And, clearly, total compliance is the best strategy if the goal is to come out of the situation alive.
Total compliance, where did this guy comply at all???

Its not about not getting killed, its about not making a shitty situation worse. Ive dealt with some dick cops in my time and you know they can give you a harder time if you act up.

Lastly, though, it's a sad state of affairs when one has to totally comply with some idiotic/dishonest cops over some illegal cigarette allegations simply to stay alive.
Again where did this guy comply at all???

Skip8282

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #84 on: July 23, 2014, 04:36:10 PM »
im not blaming him for their excessive actions, their actions where wrong no matter what. Fact of the matter is without his actions of refusing orders and resisting arrest none of that would have occured.

He helped create the enviroment where a physical altercation was needed. AGAIN THERE IS NO DENYING THIS


First, that's not a fact, that's your assumption.

You can never know what might have happened.  I thought you were pushing for us to be 'intellectually honest'.


Second, necessitating an escalation in force is not contributing to his own death.  In fact, it happens all the time, every day, throughout the world....and these people are not attempting to get themselves killed, lol.

We're just running in circles now, so have at the last word.

tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #85 on: July 23, 2014, 04:38:39 PM »
In the guy's defense, though, he'd been previously arrested 31 times*, all for non-violent offenses, so he was probably at the end of his rope, emotionally.

You can sympathize, can't you?  I mean, as pissy as you get here on this board, BB, I'd bet you aren't beyond acting similarly.  (You probably ARE smart enough to back off and shut up when you see that arresting you and not just hassling you is the intent of the cops, though.)

*31 times arrested probably means at least a couple of times that number hassled but not arrested.  Not helped at all by the big dead guy's memorable appearance, I'm thinking;  Like Naimond with his distinctive hair in The Wire, some guys are liable to draw more attention than others just because they look different/memorable.
I can sympathize with the guy. He has a wife and what 6 kids? trying to provide a living for them. That doesnt justify breakind the law 31 times and it doesnt justify resisting arrrest either.

tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #86 on: July 23, 2014, 04:43:15 PM »

First, that's not a fact, that's your assumption.

You can never know what might have happened.  I thought you were pushing for us to be 'intellectually honest'.


Second, necessitating an escalation in force is not contributing to his own death.  In fact, it happens all the time, every day, throughout the world....and these people are not attempting to get themselves killed, lol.

We're just running in circles now, so have at the last word.
Ok, its more than likely that a physical altercation would not have taken place if he was compliant with the cops...

If the escalation in force was a result of him creating a confrontation then yes he is partially to blame. He helped create the physical confrontation that lead to his death...that is a fact!!!

I never said he was trying to get himself killed, most people get in fights without the intent to get killed.

tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #87 on: July 23, 2014, 04:44:28 PM »
If they want to arrest you, and you believe you're innocent, the time to fight it is NOT when they're trying to put handcuffs on.  That's plain stupid. 

^^^^^^^^
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Skip8282

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #88 on: July 23, 2014, 05:34:01 PM »


On a related note, what IS an INDISPUTABLE FACT, is that come October 20, the Steelers will bring excessive force and pain down on the Texans.

tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #89 on: July 23, 2014, 06:20:10 PM »

On a related note, what IS an INDISPUTABLE FACT, is that come October 20, the Steelers will bring excessive force and pain down on the Texans.
hahah I feel like the steelers are overrated and the Texans are severly underrated going into this season. You lost sanders and got who? heyward bey? lance moore?

nah man the Texans defense will be much improved from last season (they pretty much have to be) and if andre plays the offense should be pretty formidable given hopkins 2nd year and foster in the back field.

Trust me my friend the Texans are gonna be as nice to rapelisburger as he is to a woman who follows him into the bathroom.

Didnt we break his ankle last time we played? or wait was that when duane brown broke james harrisons face?

RRKore

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #90 on: July 24, 2014, 01:09:19 AM »
Nope.  But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night . . . .

This was funny and I chuckled out loud.  Obviously you're not feeling pissy now.

RRKore

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #91 on: July 24, 2014, 01:26:08 AM »
...

Again where did this guy comply at all???

You don't think he complied some by not fighting?  If you disagree I'll watch it again but all I saw was that he started to turn away;  He didn't flail his arms or even try to run off like the world's biggest fullback (which would have made for a great vid).  The only danger he really posed to any of those cops was that he might fall on them.

BTW, I read that a couple of EMT's on the scene have been disciplined (suspended?) for not giving him aid on the street.  It's been alleged (haha, that's the weak way I have to put it because I'm too lazy to look for the link now) that the cops had the EMT's not try to resuscitate him on the street so as to try to avoid some responsibility for his death by being able to say that he was first pronounced dead in the ambulance on the way to the hospital.

Also, I've read that the NYPD chief was "irate" when he saw the video.  A sergeant who was on the scene might be getting in trouble for something like (fuck, I need to find the link tomorrow, I guess) "Not taking control of the situation" or some such shit.

BTW, s a guy who reads reddit's Bad_Cop_No_Donut forum pretty regularly (and has seen a lot of what look like police abuse videos), I'm surprised at all the attention this is getting but I'm happy about it. 

Hopefully folks will start getting riled up about all the dogs that are being shot for very little reason by cops these days next.

tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #92 on: July 24, 2014, 05:42:37 AM »
You don't think he complied some by not fighting?  If you disagree I'll watch it again but all I saw was that he started to turn away;  He didn't flail his arms or even try to run off like the world's biggest fullback (which would have made for a great vid).  The only danger he really posed to any of those cops was that he might fall on them.

Also, I've read that the NYPD chief was "irate" when he saw the video.  A sergeant who was on the scene might be getting in trouble for something like (fuck, I need to find the link tomorrow, I guess) "Not taking control of the situation" or some such
Are you kidding me???

That remind of the Chris rock bit where he says black guys are always proud about not going to jail. "I've got my GED, I work part time and I have never been to jail" the he points out the obvious "YOURE NOT SUPPOSED TO GO TO JAIL MOTHER FUCKER!!!!"

YOURE NOT SUPPOSED TO FIGHT OR RUN AWAY FROM THE COPS!!!

not doing so does not automatically mean you are complying with them.

Of course the chief was upset I would be as well. Those dumb asses totally mishandled the situation and resulted in the death of a civilian by their hands. I would be super fucking pissed if I was him.

T-REX007

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #93 on: July 24, 2014, 05:47:03 AM »
Remember the" ALAMO"   come September !

 ;D

Al Doggity

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #94 on: July 24, 2014, 07:01:42 AM »
LMFAO if a crack head goes and robs a drug dealer and gets shot and killed, are the crack heads actions partly to blame for his death?

Yes... that's because the drug dealer is a criminal! When dealing with a drug dealer who presumably has a history of illegal violence, there is not an expectation of resolving issues through legal measures.  When dealing with OFFICERS OF THE LAW, there is a very clear, very firm expectation of those officers behaving in a legal manner. so even if someone has a hand in escalating a situation, if the officer's reaction reaches the point where he overreacts using illegal stactics, the resulting death is entirely on that officer. Not partially the fault of his victim.

Al Doggity

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #95 on: July 24, 2014, 07:07:24 AM »
I never get "pissy" on the board.  You're just hypersensitive.  I don't think I've ever been literally upset over anything anyone has said on here. 

I cannot sympathize with someone who has been arrested 31 times.  How the heck does that even happen?? 

And no, I'm not saying he deserved to die. 

Part of the issue of this case is that witnesses claim that police only attempted to arrest the guy because they were familiar with him, not because he had broken any law that day. The officer who made the choke hold has a history of tampering with evidence and police reports. The NYPD has had to pay out on at least one lawsuit involving him.

Dos Equis

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #96 on: July 24, 2014, 09:14:26 AM »
This was funny and I chuckled out loud.  Obviously you're not feeling pissy now.

You laughed?  Good.  You must be off the rag? 

Dos Equis

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #97 on: July 24, 2014, 09:18:41 AM »
Part of the issue of this case is that witnesses claim that police only attempted to arrest the guy because they were familiar with him, not because he had broken any law that day. The officer who made the choke hold has a history of tampering with evidence and police reports. The NYPD has had to pay out on at least one lawsuit involving him.

They shouldn't have been arresting him unless he was committing or had committed a crime. 

That said, someone who has been arrested 31 times probably shouldn't be on the street.  Speaking in general terms, someone like that is a menace to society. 

Why does that cop still have a job if he was caught tampering with evidence? 

tonymctones

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #98 on: July 24, 2014, 12:13:34 PM »
Yes... that's because the drug dealer is a criminal! When dealing with a drug dealer who presumably has a history of illegal violence, there is not an expectation of resolving issues through legal measures.  When dealing with OFFICERS OF THE LAW, there is a very clear, very firm expectation of those officers behaving in a legal manner. so even if someone has a hand in escalating a situation, if the officer's reaction reaches the point where he overreacts using illegal stactics, the resulting death is entirely on that officer. Not partially the fault of his victim.
Wait first you say it's possible that he would have been put in a choke hold even if he was compliant....now you're saying that when dealing with cops you should believe they are going to act within the law? If you think the cops might have choked him out even if he cooperated then that needs to play into your expectations on how they will respond if you act up!!!

If they had used legal means like a taser and this guy died would he be partially to blame?

Al Doggity

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Re: 5 NYPD cops choke unarmed man to death
« Reply #99 on: July 24, 2014, 02:57:29 PM »
They shouldn't have been arresting him unless he was committing or had committed a crime. 

That said, someone who has been arrested 31 times probably shouldn't be on the street.  Speaking in general terms, someone like that is a menace to society. 

If he served his time, he has the right to be on the street. We know that at least 9 of those arrests were related to selling untaxed cigarettes-a truly victimless crime. It is not unreasonable to assume that the majority of his rap sheet involves similar offenses.

Quote
Why does that cop still have a job if he was caught tampering with evidence? 
Because he is a cop for the NYPD.