Author Topic: Ronald on Immigration  (Read 2424 times)

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2014, 07:09:40 PM »
You are reporting and spinning stats you likely got from some liberal rag, which is what I found when I plugged the information in Google.  Is that why you didn't post a link?   

If you believe we have 600,000 fewer illegals coming across the border than 40 years ago then you are incredibly uninformed.  Have you been around the country, particularly to border states?  I've seen the results in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.  Nobody who is paying attention (and isn't spouting some agenda) believes that we have had this monumental decrease in illegal immigration.  Absurd. 

Oh you need a link?

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jul/24/deirdre-imus/deirdre-imus-more-illegal-immigrants-pouring-now-u/

Or how about

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/U.S.%20Border%20Patrol%20Fiscal%20Year%20Apprehension%20Statistics%201960-2013.pdf

 ::)

Tell me again how I am spinning anything as I pasted the same numbers they gave.

 ::)

flipper5470

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2014, 07:57:48 PM »
So...what you're saying is that Obama has fucked this country up so badly that even the dirtiest, poorest Mexican doesn't want to move here?

Dos Equis

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2014, 08:11:40 PM »
Oh you need a link?

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/jul/24/deirdre-imus/deirdre-imus-more-illegal-immigrants-pouring-now-u/

Or how about

http://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/U.S.%20Border%20Patrol%20Fiscal%20Year%20Apprehension%20Statistics%201960-2013.pdf

 ::)

Tell me again how I am spinning anything as I pasted the same numbers they gave.

 ::)

No I don't need a link.  I didn't ask for one.  I doubt you decided to just go research statistics.  A number of liberal rags posted these numbers and spun them just like you did.  The numbers do not say illegal immigration has plummeted as you claim.  They simply show apprehensions have plummeted.  That means we are doing a much poorer job of securing the border.

RRKore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2014, 09:14:14 PM »
You are reporting and spinning stats you likely got from some liberal rag, which is what I found when I plugged the information in Google.  Is that why you didn't post a link?   

If you believe we have 600,000 fewer illegals coming across the border than 40 years ago then you are incredibly uninformed.  Have you been around the country, particularly to border states?  I've seen the results in California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.  Nobody who is paying attention (and isn't spouting some agenda) believes that we have had this monumental decrease in illegal immigration.  Absurd. 

First rate reasoning, BB.  Because everyone knows that once the immigrants get here they just die and go away before they're here a 2nd year, right? 

Also, isn't it common knowledge that crossing the border causes them to become infertile and incapable of reproducing once they're here? 

So, yeah, if the immigrant enclaves in the border states are bigger and more visible than before, it can only mean that the annual number of immigrants must be higher now than ever before.

RRKore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2014, 09:16:14 PM »
The numbers are BS when you put them in context. 

Translation:  The numbers are not truthy enough for BB.

RRKore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2014, 09:23:44 PM »
Yes, you are claiming this:


The numbers are based on apprehensions.  The fact fewer illegals are being apprehended under Obama doesn't mean fewer illegals are crossing the border.    This is about the most retarded thing I've read on the board this week.  But it's only Wednesday . . . .

Fair point.  Now, what do you know about how many border patrol folks there are now vs 40 years ago?

Because if there are now far less border patrol folks, that would begin to explain why there so many fewer apprehensions today even if there are actually just as many (or more) folks trying to cross the border. 

RRKore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2014, 09:26:26 PM »
No I don't need a link.  I didn't ask for one.  I doubt you decided to just go research statistics.  A number of liberal rags posted these numbers and spun them just like you did.  The numbers do not say illegal immigration has plummeted as you claim.  They simply show apprehensions have plummeted.  That means we are doing a much poorer job of securing the border.

Cognitive dissonance at its finest right here, boyee.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2014, 05:56:15 AM »
Cognitive dissonance at its finest right here, boyee.

HAHAHAHA  you have to remember that Beach lives in LALA Land which is rife with delusions and deflections, but short on common sense and logic.

US Customs and Borders site being a liberal rag.  HAHAHAHA.

Dude has been on a roll lately showcasing his stupidity.  More than usual that is.  Spin and whine.... that is the tactic when there is nothing else to say but yet he just has to post SOMETHING.  So rather than post credible stats that argue the opposite of the USC&B link, he just has to post the nonsense that is in his head.   ::)  Gotcha.

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2014, 08:41:54 AM »
No I don't need a link.  I didn't ask for one.  I doubt you decided to just go research statistics.  A number of liberal rags posted these numbers and spun them just like you did.  The numbers do not say illegal immigration has plummeted as you claim.  They simply show apprehensions have plummeted.  That means we are doing a much poorer job of securing the border.

Dems are masters of spinning data and using fuzzy numbers to 'prove their point'. Even if these numbers are accurate-which i doubt- it shows only 'apprehensions', which is completely seperate from the actual numbers who are pouring in.

Ive lived in texas since then, and its clear as day what is going on now to anyone living in a border state. I cannot go ANYWHERE now without hearing more spanish than english. These arent just native hispanic americans either, they are foreign nationals. Ive never seen anything like what is going on now.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2014, 08:46:19 AM »
Dems are masters of spinning data and using fuzzy numbers to 'prove their point'. Even if these numbers are accurate-which i doubt- it shows only 'apprehensions', which is completely seperate from the actual numbers who are pouring in.

Ive lived in texas since then, and its clear as day what is going on now to anyone living in a border state. I cannot go ANYWHERE now without hearing more spanish than english. These arent just native hispanic americans either, they are foreign nationals. Ive never seen anything like what is going on now.

Still don't see a link to any numbers reflecting otherwise.  All I see is your useless spiel and whining.  Which the only thing it proves is you are a partisan idiot.

Guess you will have to try again. 

Dos Equis

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2014, 08:52:07 AM »
Dems are masters of spinning data and using fuzzy numbers to 'prove their point'. Even if these numbers are accurate-which i doubt- it shows only 'apprehensions', which is completely seperate from the actual numbers who are pouring in.

Ive lived in texas since then, and its clear as day what is going on now to anyone living in a border state. I cannot go ANYWHERE now without hearing more spanish than english. These arent just native hispanic americans either, they are foreign nationals. Ive never seen anything like what is going on now.

Correct.  I don't really doubt the numbers that are being reported, but the way some of these airheads are spinning them is the issue.  As I said earlier, anyone who believes we have seen illegal immigration plummet is uninformed. 

But it is difficult to reason with partisan hacks.   

RRKore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2014, 08:55:41 AM »
...
These arent just native hispanic americans either, they are foreign nationals.
...

How can you tell? 

I mean, isn't it one of the big complaints about hispanic immigrants in general that they persist in speaking Spanish and don't assimilate quickly enough?

So, if you see a spanish-speaking woman at, say, the laundromat who has 4 little kids with her, isn't it possible that what you're seeing is 1 Mexican national and 4 US citizens instead of 5 Mexican nationals?

Just because spanish-speakers are more visible doesn't mean there are more coming over the border.

BTW, I don't mean any of this to suggest that there's no problem.  I just mean to refute the argument of some that because they see more Hispanics than ever these days it means that there must be more coming over the border despite creditable sources indicating that this isn't the case.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2014, 08:58:07 AM »
Let's try your logic here.

There were MORE apprehensions of illegals under Reagan when we had fewer resources and staff on duty for the border.  Correct?

We have LESS apprehensions under Obama even though there are more resources and staff devoted to the border today.  Correct?

But we have MORE immigrants coming into the country today.  Correct?

More immigrants arriving + less apprehensions = majority of immigrants must be legal since only illegals are apprehended.   ::)

Are you seriously telling me that is your line of thinking?  If so, you really need to find a link and let it do the talking for you cause we all know bullshit when we read it.  And that is what you are trying to spread with nothing to back it up.  

 

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2014, 09:00:41 AM »
How can you tell? 

I mean, isn't it one of the big complaints about hispanic immigrants in general that they persist in speaking Spanish and don't assimilate quickly enough?

So, if you see a spanish-speaking woman at, say, the laundromat who has 4 little kids with her, isn't it possible that what you're seeing is 1 Mexican national and 4 US citizens instead of 5 Mexican nationals?

Just because spanish-speakers are more visible doesn't mean there are more coming over the border.

BTW, I don't mean any of this to suggest that there's no problem.  I just mean to refute the argument of some that because they see more Hispanics than ever these days it means that there must be more coming over the border despite creditable sources indicating that this isn't the case.

Speculation and profiling only goes so far.  If speaking another language besides English is an indication of the person being here illegally, then I can drive 30 miles down to Miami and be in the capital of illegals as everyone either speaks Spanish or Portuguese.   ::)

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2014, 09:03:07 AM »
How can you tell?  

I mean, isn't it one of the big complaints about hispanic immigrants in general that they persist in speaking Spanish and don't assimilate quickly enough?

So, if you see a spanish-speaking woman at, say, the laundromat who has 4 little kids with her, isn't it possible that what you're seeing is 1 Mexican national and 4 US citizens instead of 5 Mexican nationals?

Just because spanish-speakers are more visible doesn't mean there are more coming over the border.

BTW, I don't mean any of this to suggest that there's no problem.  I just mean to refute the argument of some that because they see more Hispanics than ever these days it means that there must be more coming over the border despite creditable sources indicating that this isn't the case.

Because ive lived in south texas my whole and its plain as day. Everyone here can immediately tell who is local and who is not from around here. Different dialect, different way of dressing, different mannerisms and behavior, etc..

Also the last few years other little details...mexican banks not found here before have been popping up near malls, more signs and stores putting things in spanish, more commercials on tv in spanish featuring latin americans, huge sections of sporting goods stores now selling soccer jerseys where before there were none, latin american pop stars/celebrities showing up in ads, schools being swamped with immigrant kids, whole neighborhoods being bought out by rich mexican nationals..basically we are seeing a gradual transformation into a latin american enclave.

RRKore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2014, 09:19:21 AM »
Correct.  I don't really doubt the numbers that are being reported, but the way some of these airheads are spinning them is the issue.  As I said earlier, anyone who believes we have seen illegal immigration plummet is uninformed. 

... 

So you're saying that you don't believe the significant reduction of apprehensions indicates a significant reduction in the number of people trying to illegally cross the borders?  

And you hold this belief why?  Because the number of immigrants you see is greater than ever?

You do realize, don't you, that just because there are significantly less coming over the border annually than in years past this does not at all mean anyone is saying there aren't more illegal immigrants living here than ever before, right?  

Sheesh, the number living here will continue to increase as long as the #of illegal immigrants for any given year exceeds the number already living here who die, leave the country, or convert to legal status.  I'm gonna guess that those 2 numbers aren't close at all so of course the total number of illegal immigrants we have living here is going to climb each year.

Folks saying that all these illegals there seeing must indicate that there are more coming over the border than ever before remind me of little kids who can't grasp that 1 dime is more valuable than 9 pennies.

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2014, 09:30:24 AM »
lol... i fucking hate us...

We play the Dumb card whenever its beneficial.

"It only says apprehensions"

As if there isn’t a direct correlation between the two... ::)

We fucking suck bro.
We turn in to Sherlock Holmes when numbers don’t support your predetermined stance on a subject.
We totally ignore the source (or lack thereof) validity and or support articles that fall in line with how we already think.
We are doomed.  I’m moving back to the mountains of Puerto Rico

RRKore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2014, 09:35:37 AM »
Because ive lived in south texas my whole and its plain as day. Everyone here can immediately tell who is local and who is not from around here. Different dialect, different way of dressing, different mannerisms and behavior, etc..

Also the last few years other little details...mexican banks not found here before have been popping up near malls, more signs and stores putting things in spanish, more commercials on tv in spanish featuring latin americans, huge sections of sporting goods stores now selling soccer jerseys where before there were none, latin american pop stars/celebrities showing up in ads, schools being swamped with immigrant kids, whole neighborhoods being bought out by rich mexican nationals..basically we are seeing a gradual transformation into a latin american enclave.
Respectfully, JM all that means is that the ones here aren't leaving (or dying off very quickly).

(And that means that living in Mexico sucks so much that the poor illegals don't realize how much Texas sucks, lol.)

Also, I question how you'd be able to tell if a kid born in the USA to an illegal immigrant younger than about 3rd grade is a local or not if he or she is only speaking Spanish. 

I grew up in CA and I've been surprised before in public (like at a laundromat, or on BART) when a grade school kid with his family who's been speaking only Spanish busts out with some perfect but slightly accented English when his mom has him talk to a non-Mexican about something.

Businesses are just trying to make money.  If Spanish speaking people have money then it just makes sense for businesses to cater to that market by speaking their language. 

From a purely cultural standpoint (not a nationally economic one), I don't really get what the objection is.  Yeah, "Texas" culture will change in the border areas, but is that necessarily a bad thing?  I love Tex-Mex food, for example.  Also, many Mexican females are purty.

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2014, 09:37:48 AM »
So you're saying that you don't believe the significant reduction of apprehensions indicates a significant reduction in the number of people trying to illegally cross the borders?  

And you hold this belief why?  Because the number of immigrants you see is greater than ever?

You do realize, don't you, that just because there are significantly less coming over the border annually than in years past this does not at all mean anyone is saying there aren't more illegal immigrants living here than ever before, right?  

Sheesh, the number living here will continue to increase as long as the #of illegal immigrants for any given year exceeds the number already living here who die, leave the country, or convert to legal status.  I'm gonna guess that those 2 numbers aren't close at all so of course the total number of illegal immigrants we have living here is going to climb each year.

Folks saying that all these illegals there seeing must indicate that there are more coming over the border than ever before remind me of little kids who can't grasp that 1 dime is more valuable than 9 pennies.

The number of apprehensions is dependent on many factors, such as how many border patrol resources are available at the time, and how they are being directed; it could be back then they simply followed the law and caught almost everyone coming and sent them back, whereas now they are being directed not enforce much of the law. This seems to be the consensus from the agents themselves, who repeatedly say their hands are being tied from above. It is both entirely possible, likely even, that the vast majority of illegals coming now are not apprehended at all, and are therefore not reflected in the 'official' numbers.

Similar to the obama admin and their ilk claiming he has 'deported more than any other president', when we all know its a clever play on numbers and is complete bs. They pay lip service to the law and enforcement practices and make sure their 'official numbers' look respectable...but then proceed to release the vast majority back into society.

Same shit as the gun control idiots- they push the numbers '30,000' killed by guns in this country!!' Then you look and see that they included in that number 13,000 suicides, criminals shot by cops, the boston bomber terrorist, and almost all the rest are gang bangers killing gang bangers.

LurkerNoMore

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #44 on: July 31, 2014, 09:43:33 AM »
lol... i fucking hate us...

We play the Dumb card whenever its beneficial.

"It only says apprehensions"

As if there isn’t a direct correlation between the two... ::)

We fucking suck bro.
We turn in to Sherlock Holmes when numbers don’t support your predetermined stance on a subject.
We totally ignore the source (or lack thereof) validity and or support articles that fall in line with how we already think.
We are doomed.  I’m moving back to the mountains of Puerto Rico


QFT

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2014, 09:50:46 AM »
Respectfully, JM all that means is that the ones here aren't leaving (or dying off very quickly).


There is a huge difference between native hispanics, who are fully assimilated americans, and the masses of foreign nationals. It is very telling that even among native hispanics there is much outrage and resentment at what is currently going on; they are american citizens too, whose tax dollars are going to support an influx of foreign kids instead of their own kids, and they resent the fact that they are seeing these people waving mexican flags and making demands. Most of their grandparents came over legally, because they wanted to be a part of america and what it stood for, instead of their corrupt, failed nation of mexico. They willfully assimilated into america, are proud to be americans, watch the fucking dallas cowboys and have american flags in their yard. They are as pissed as any other americans to see the audacity and entitlement complex of these foreigners who want to come here and make demands, but are still loyal to mexico and their home countries. Most of these people dont want to become americans, they just want to take advantage of it. They dont want to assimilate, and there are so many of them now, THEY DONT NEED TO.
Therefore this is fundamentally different because instead of them assimilating to america, this part of america is assimilating to THEM. And the more it goes like that, this region will become less and less like america, and more like the third world nation they came from.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2014, 10:04:22 AM »
So you're saying that you don't believe the significant reduction of apprehensions indicates a significant reduction in the number of people trying to illegally cross the borders?  

And you hold this belief why?  Because the number of immigrants you see is greater than ever?

You do realize, don't you, that just because there are significantly less coming over the border annually than in years past this does not at all mean anyone is saying there aren't more illegal immigrants living here than ever before, right?  

Sheesh, the number living here will continue to increase as long as the #of illegal immigrants for any given year exceeds the number already living here who die, leave the country, or convert to legal status.  I'm gonna guess that those 2 numbers aren't close at all so of course the total number of illegal immigrants we have living here is going to climb each year.

Folks saying that all these illegals there seeing must indicate that there are more coming over the border than ever before remind me of little kids who can't grasp that 1 dime is more valuable than 9 pennies.

I'm saying it because it's true, as anyone with an ounce of common sense and real world experience will tell you.  John Matrix tried to explain it to you. 

It's not the number of immigrants you see.  That's just you being you (making stuff up).  It's the sheer number of illegal aliens, the people who live in border towns who experience it, the change in policy by the administration, etc.  You should talk to people like JM (as I have) and you get a better understanding of what is happening in the country.

Dos Equis

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2014, 10:06:59 AM »
lol... i fucking hate us...

We play the Dumb card whenever its beneficial.

"It only says apprehensions"

As if there isn’t a direct correlation between the two... ::)

We fucking suck bro.
We turn in to Sherlock Holmes when numbers don’t support your predetermined stance on a subject.
We totally ignore the source (or lack thereof) validity and or support articles that fall in line with how we already think.
We are doomed.  I’m moving back to the mountains of Puerto Rico


People disagree with you, so you pick up your bat and ball and go home?  Weak.

You started this thread with a clip that didn't support some veiled claim that Reagan supported amnesty. 

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2014, 10:10:26 AM »
There is a huge difference between native hispanics, who are fully assimilated americans, and the masses of foreign nationals. It is very telling that even among native hispanics there is much outrage and resentment at what is currently going on; they are american citizens too, whose tax dollars are going to support an influx of foreign kids instead of their own kids, and they resent the fact that they are seeing these people waving mexican flags and making demands. Most of their grandparents came over legally, because they wanted to be a part of america and what it stood for, instead of their corrupt, failed nation of mexico. They willfully assimilated into america, are proud to be americans, watch the fucking dallas cowboys and have american flags in their yard. They are as pissed as any other americans to see the audacity and entitlement complex of these foreigners who want to come here and make demands, but are still loyal to mexico and their home countries. Most of these people dont want to become americans, they just want to take advantage of it. They dont want to assimilate, and there are so many of them now, THEY DONT NEED TO.
Therefore this is fundamentally different because instead of them assimilating to america, this part of america is assimilating to THEM. And the more it goes like that, this region will become less and less like america, and more like the third world nation they came from.

Melting pot, mang.  Sounds like you're just impatient but we're all entitled to our own opinions.  

Also, like I alluded to earlier, their are concrete economic reasons for not wanting open borders that supersede all the cultural concerns (in my mind, anyway).

TBH, some of their culture's ways are likely superior to ours, anyway.  For instance, when it comes to tight family bonds and taking care of their elderly, I think Mexican culture is much better.

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Re: Ronald on Immigration
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2014, 10:13:38 AM »