Adrian Peterson indicted for child abuse

[pedro01]

that's why I said "ideally"

yes and newsflash the crime and punishment model is not the latest in child development circles.

The problem is - when people do studies on high rates of re-offenders, they use their data to prove the point "look - prison doesn't work - these people didn't learn their lesson inside"

Of course, that is the point they started out wanting to prove in the first place.

But they never look at how many people saw that punishment as a reason to not offend in the first place.

To be honest, if there was no punishment for crimes, I may well grab a gun and rob the local bank. Why not?  As it is, I choose not to be anally abused by some large hebrew for 15-20.

You can't look at rates of re-offending and say that punishment is not preventing crime.

[mr.turbo]

The problem is that there is no "ideal" reality, especially when you dealing with sentient beings, specifically human beings.

And yes, I know that...It's older than "spare the rod, spoil the child".

yes ok so it's just something to talk about which is what we're doing. It's useful to imagine improvements if you hope to make them real.

So another metaphor...trying to get away from treating your children like prisoners...can you think of any??

[ChopperRider]

Are you seriously "implying" that spanking kids will cure today's crime rate? lol. There are MANY reasons why today's teens are out of control. The fact of the matter is that many parents spank their children, yet their is still crime. There is still violence. I can almost guarantee that every person in the photo below was administered spankings and physical discipline. In fact, spanking is VERY common in low-income, urban communities. Yet, the crime rate is high among inner city kids. If spanking worked so well, why are these kids resorting to gangs and violence? It is quite clear that something else is going on that has absolutely nothing to do with giving your kids a few spanks.

Yes.....the only thing missing in those young boys' lives was being put in Timeout.

[Shockwave]

Yes.....the only thing missing in those young boys' lives was being put in Timeout.

Haha

[Parker]

yes ok so it's just something to talk about which is what we're doing. It's useful to imagine improvements if you hope to make them real.

So another metaphor...trying to get away from treating your children like prisoners...can you think of any??

Prisoners, you sure do reach for the hyperbole medal, don't you?

Yes, just open the doors and let them run wild. When they come home feed them, and be glad that they come home. If one doesn't, say to the other ones, "that means more food for you"

Whether it be admonishing with harsh words, time outs (oh brother), taking certain privileges away, taking certain things away, grounding them, sending them to bed with no dinner, etc, there is no "ideal" method.

This world is harsh, and there are rules for everything. If you lived in the wilderness, the consequences of not following certain rules can make you (eating certain plants) or get you killed or your family killed.  And that is the ultimate "punishment". So, in the world outside of humankind, there is also punishment.

[mr.turbo]

The problem is - when people do studies on high rates of re-offenders, they use their data to prove the point "look - prison doesn't work - these people didn't learn their lesson inside"

Of course, that is the point they started out wanting to prove in the first place.

But they never look at how many people saw that punishment as a reason to not offend in the first place.

To be honest, if there was no punishment for crimes, I may well grab a gun and rob the local bank. Why not?  As it is, I choose not to be anally abused by some large hebrew for 15-20.

You can't look at rates of re-offending and say that punishment is not preventing crime.

ok well to each his own..just pointing out that the "parenting" strategies we're discussing come straight out of the prison.

[mr.turbo]

Prisoners, you sure do reach for the hyperbole medal, don't you?

Yes, just open the doors and let them run wild. When they come home feed them, and be glad that they come home. If one doesn't, say to the other ones, "that means more food for you"

Whether it be admonishing with harsh words, time outs (oh brother), taking certain privileges away, taking certain things away, grounding them, sending them to bed with no dinner, etc, there is no "ideal" method.

This world is harsh, and there are rules for everything. If you lived in the wilderness, the consequences of not following certain rules can make you (eating certain plants) or get you killed or your family killed.  And that is the ultimate "punishment". So, in the world outside of humankind, there is also punishment.

You're the one used to break-in example. I'm just responding to your posts. Not trying to be inflammatory.

I agree the parents are responsible for protecting the kids and showing them how to move in the world.  This is more like teaching to me so you have to model the correct behavior then kids follow.  What you're saying is it's like trial and error with pedro style electric shocks when you're bad.  You can't claim this is required due to being in the real world  

Anyway so the consider this... the Kindergarten concept means Children's Garden in German which is modeled on an organic development notion...like flowers in a garden...maybe that's a better metaphor hmmm?

[Parker]

ok well to each his own..just pointing out that the "parenting" strategies we're discussing come straight out of the prison.

spanking and taking privileges away or doing extra chores existed long before prisons or our current penal system. Hell, some people actually want to be locked up...free meals, a roof over your head. In some places you have weights, dip bars---your own gym that you don't have to pay for and also medical. To these folks it's reward, not a punishment. One could say that the state in itself is being a parent for its bad wards, or children.

[mr.turbo]

spanking and taking privileges away or doing extra chores existed long before prisons or our current penal system. Hell, some people actually want to be locked up...free meals, a roof over your head. In some places you have weights, dip bars---your own gym that you don't have to pay for and also medical. To these folks it's reward, not a punishment. One could say that the state in itself is being a parent for its bad wards, or children.

true and even the schools these days are a lot like prisons in reality.

if the objective is to learn something there are many ways of going about it.

If you follow tennis Andre Agassi was a child prodigy.  His father built a court and a machine in the yard that fired 1 million tennis balls at the boy (not exaggerating).  Andre was great at tennis.  He Married Stefii Graf and they have kids with the best tennis genes imaginable but they won't put the kids into tennis because of how they suffered as kids!

[Howard]

Can you provide evidence it doesn't?

You can site some study, but then I can site a study that says it does.

There is no way anyone can tell for certain one way or the other, and to be honest, my anecdotal evidence is all I need because it's about MY kids.

See, that's the thing, I don't care about how you raise your kids, because if they end up in prison, that's on you. If my kid ends up in prison, then that's on me... I only want to keep MY son out of prison, I don't care a bit about yours.

So when your son is whatever he is, and my son is whatever he is, I only care about one of them.

Mine.

Adrian Peterson is raising his son how he sees fit... it's none of my business.

PS... since it's about football and whatever. I don't give a shit about the Ray Rice nonsense either... if a woman wants to be married to a guy that hit her, that's their business... Not mine.

Bunch of busy bodies.

FYI, most state employees ( teachers, police, social workers, etc) have MANDATORY REPORTING of any SUSPECTED child abuse laws as conditions of employment. The actual law doesn't agree with you.

[Howard]

Exactly.

Not enough parents whipping their kids asses like they used to back in the day.

Parents have gotten soft.

My older sis and I only got a few light wacks on the butt or  slaps on the hand.
We NEVER got hit with a stick or belt. My dad was a WWII and Korea vet and knew how to discipline us effectively.
She became an MD , Med school prof and mother of 3.
I became a physics prof with a doctorate in my field.
Neither one of us ever used illegal drugs, drank much booze or got locked up for a crime.

FYI, the majority of criminals in jails were hit or whipped as kids.

[Wolfox]

My older sis and I only got a few light wacks on the butt or  slaps on the hand.
We NEVER got hit with a stick or belt. My dad was a WWII and Korea vet and knew how to discipline us effectively.
She became an MD , Med school prof and mother of 3.
I became a physics prof with a doctorate in my field.
Neither one of us ever used illegal drugs, drank much booze or got locked up for a crime.

FYI, the majority of criminals in jails were hit or whipped as kids.

So you're saying you're a lifetime natural?

[Var City]

Yes.....the only thing missing in those young boys' lives was being put in Timeout.

and a future, and IQs, and... oh wait sarcasm? yes I SEE NOW.

lots of confirmation bias sheep opinions in this thread (not majority) but c'mon. step outside your past experiences for one moment.

would YOU hit a 4 year old kid like that?

i wouldn't. i'd never hit a kid. i was hit a bit when i was younger. in the same vain as this (less severe, not with a snatch... but with belts lightly).

well i don't think that taught me shit. i was stealing my parents cars at 12 to go out for a spin in front of their eyes cause they didn't remember where i was and i would just swap the pain killer stash from one spot to another and they would both go away and then i would steal the car at the furthest end of the garage and put it in neutral down the driveway then park and start it and dip out

then i was a drug addict

then i became rich by accident (no trust fund. parents are still alive and very well, thank god, and i wasn't raised like that. i went to harvard yes, and my dad paid for that shit, but i also made $400,000 exactly my junior year of college off basically meeting the right person at the right time and being able to write code on a professional level, and that wasn't even a fucking damned thing compared to what was coming @ 27 (last year).

so does getting beaten fuck you up later in life?

i dunno. i love my dad for beating me. then again my best night ever was getting absolutely pummelled after getting jumped at a townie bar in franklin, mass by 5 dudes, then my ribs broken at the end getting kicked by a girl in tims(bones broken, concussion, but gods of karma didn't let them touch my face for reasons obvious to not frustrate the god of man dime protection)

that shit made me very very happy

like the time i broke 26 bones that was actually living on the edge of life and death jaws of life cut open car air lift by helicopter to jacksonville hospital

the best memories though are the ones you really savor though. when you know, that they know, that you KNOW that's warm.

[mr.turbo]

dr.strangelove calling for var city...seems something has gone a bit backwards with you no? good luck forming healthy relationships tho

[Parker]

true and even the schools these days are a lot like prisons in reality.

if the objective is to learn something there are many ways of going about it.

If you follow tennis Andre Agassi was a child prodigy.  His father built a court and a machine in the yard that fired 1 million tennis balls at the boy (not exaggerating).  Andre was great at tennis.  He Married Stefii Graf and they have kids with the best tennis genes imaginable but they won't put the kids into tennis because of how they suffered as kids!

Ah, you mean where the it is the children/inmates who run the prison?

Or are you talking about the lockdown of inner city schools?
Prisons are pretty much built on the premise of keeping people in---with a lesser priority of keeping people out.
Schools not so much.

This was the same thing Tiger went thru...

As far as great tennis genes, I doubt it. There is no proof of that. Just like that there is no proof that Michael Jordan's sons would be better basketball players than him. The one thing that separated Michael Jordan above all basketball players was his drive to succeed, and he internalized when people put him down.

My older sis and I only got a few light wacks on the butt or  slaps on the hand.
We NEVER got hit with a stick or belt. My dad was a WWII and Korea vet and knew how to discipline us effectively.
She became an MD , Med school prof and mother of 3.
I became a physics prof with a doctorate in my field.
Neither one of us ever used illegal drugs, drank much booze or got locked up for a crime.

FYI, the majority of criminals in jails were hit or whipped as kids.

So what happened that created your intability terms of marriage? We often mimic what we know...
And when you talk about criminals in jails were hit or whipped as kids, are we talking about excessive whipping, abuse? Or getting hit for no reason? See, as a teacher you should know about the wide spectrum of things.

[mr.turbo]

Ah, you mean where the it is the children/inmates who run the prison?

Or are you talking about the lockdown of inner city schools?
Prisons are pretty much built on the premise of keeping people in---with a lesser priority of keeping people out.
Schools not so much.

This was the same thing Tiger went thru...

As far as great tennis genes, I doubt it. There is no proof of that. Just like that there is no proof that Michael Jordan's sons would be better basketball players than him. The one thing that separated Michael Jordan above all basketball players was his drive to succeed, and he internalized when people put him down.
So what happened that created your intability terms of marriage? We often mimic what we know...
And when you talk about criminals in jails were hit or whipped as kids, are we talking about excessive whipping, abuse? Or getting hit for no reason? See, as a teacher you should know about the wide spectrum of things.

just want to clarify and return to the point where we started which is about the *necessity* of punishment. Pedro makes the astute point that timeouts and spanking are the same thing. What follows naturally is that *ideally* we would not need any form of it. 

We punish criminals and animals.  I still have not heard anyone make a compelling case for why we need to punish young children. Unless you want to put them in the aforementioned categories.

 

[Wolfox]

X3. Great post.

A 4 year-old is so small and fragile. There's no excuse for this.

Its crazy to me how there are people here attempting to justify Petersons behavior. It's bat shit crazy. 

[Big Chiro Flex]

my sisters and i use to get the switch in the South but i don't remember any track marks.

Perhaps you should have gotten spanked a bit harder

[Parker]

just want to clarify and return to the point where we started which is about the *necessity* of punishment. Pedro makes the astute point that timeouts and spanking are the same thing. What follows naturally is that *ideally* we would not need any form of it.  

We punish criminals and animals.  I still have not heard anyone make a compelling case for why we need to punish young children. Unless you want to put them in the aforementioned categories.

 

you see, you get hung up on "punish"...

There is no "naturally" that follows, because nature in itself punishes. A wolf that cannot hunt starves. That wolf that tries to attack a rattlesnake gets bitten and dies.
You get too close to a hornet's nest, you get stun.
Punishment comes in many forms---it is the result of doing the wrong thing.

When you do wrong on here, you get sent to the timeout board or your account gets banned. Does that make you a criminal? No, it doesn't. A criminal is one who breaks the law of the land.

We punish those who do wrong, plan and simple. Children to adults. Now, as far as what form of punishment that is different. That there are consequences for bad behavior, and that there is reward for good behavior. If you want to argue that there is no compelling argument for punishing young children, then the opposite arguement would be that there is no compelling argument for rewarding young children.

*BTW, time out and a spanking are yes a form of punishment. But can be used as a progressive form of it punishment in itself.

[mr.turbo]

you see, you get hung up on "punish"...

There is no "naturally" that follows, because nature in itself punishes. A wolf that cannot hunt starves. That wolf that tries to attack a rattlesnake gets bitten and dies.
You get too close to a hornet's nest, you get stun.
Punishment comes in many forms---it is the result of doing the wrong thing.

When you do wrong on here, you get sent to the timeout board or your account gets banned. Does that make you a criminal? No, it doesn't. A criminal is one who breaks the law of the land.

We punish those who do wrong, plan and simple. Children to adults. Now, as far as what form of punishment that is different. That there are consequences for bad behavior, and that there is reward for good behavior. If you want to argue that there is no compelling argument for punishing young children, then the opposite arguement would be that there is no compelling argument for rewarding young children.

*BTW, time out and a spanking are yes a form of punishment. But can be used as a progressive form of it punishment in itself.

you're right. the same principles apply to rewarding children. The old school calls it "reinforcement".   I'll have to think about it some more but I'll leave you with this pic to consider.  This is was the state of the art 50 yrs ago. A perfect kid was supposed to emerge from the box!

[Wolfox]

This is some sharia law type shit. Wait...actually, I've never even heard of a 4 year old getting lashed in Islam 

[Nails]

This is some sharia law type shit. Wait...actually, I've never even heard of a 4 year old getting lashed in Islam 

[Wolfox]

Those pics are hosted by hoax slayer bro. The boy was actually a street performer doing a stunt.

[Nails]

Those pics are hosted by hoax slayer bro. The boy was actually a street performer doing a stunt.

oh, lol 

[Wolfox]

oh, lol 

Child labor laws of peace