Author Topic: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?  (Read 29295 times)

NelsonMuntz

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2017, 07:25:33 AM »
Steve Reeves at age 15

"

DooM_

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2017, 07:46:53 AM »
Steve Reeves at age 15



has slight gyno , was obviously using experimental steroids  ::)

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #102 on: September 19, 2017, 01:26:55 PM »
Yer arse in parsley.   JCG himself was quite open about his testosterone experimentation in the 40's and 50's.

Grimek tried testosterone in the late 50 under Zeigler NOT 40s don't know where you got that from? and he said it didn't do anything for him.

illuminati

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #103 on: September 19, 2017, 01:50:49 PM »
Yeah I have a view that's based on facts , others have theirs based on hearsay/opinions. There is a pretty well established time-line for drug use in the sport. When someone says " He was on Dianabol " that's a laughable statement considering it wasn't even invented until almost a decade after he retired.

I'll stick with facts.



I get Reeves is your hero & you believe him to be whiter than white - if it floats your boat Good for you.
I see him as a good physique with decent genetics - if he did or didn't partake in drugs of any kind I really
Could not care less either way.

You have a view based on facts - Fair enough
Then the Fact that 1990 Mr O was Drug Tested- Fact is those athletes were not using drugs
Just like all sports people who take part in Drug Tested events.
You may believe that to be true - I don't believe it.
Drug testing Facts or not.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #104 on: September 19, 2017, 01:56:28 PM »

I get Reeves is your hero & you believe him to be whiter than white - if it floats your boat Good for you.
I see him as a good physique with decent genetics - if he did or didn't partake in drugs of any kind I really
Could not care less either way.

You have a view based on facts - Fair enough
Then the Fact that 1990 Mr O was Drug Tested- Fact is those athletes were not using drugs
Just like all sports people who take part in Drug Tested events.
You may believe that to be true - I don't believe it.
Drug testing Facts or not.


Quote
I get Reeves is your hero & you believe him to be whiter than white - if it floats your boat Good for you.

I don't have any " heros " However if anyone in this " sport " can be seen as a positive influence it's Steve Reeves.

Quote
You have a view based on facts - Fair enough
Then the Fact that 1990 Mr O was Drug Tested- Fact is those athletes were not using drugs


No! because it's a fact that drug tests can be circumvented.

illuminati

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2017, 02:22:19 PM »
I don't have any " heros " However if anyone in this " sport " can be seen as a positive influence it's Steve Reeves.
 

No! because it's a fact that drug tests can be circumvented.




" I don't have any " heros " However if anyone in this " sport " can be seen as a positive influence it's Steve Reeves." --

That's your opinion - I can think of many others as positive influences on this sport & some have likely used
or admitted using drugs of one kind or another.

"No! because it's a fact that drug tests can be circumvented " --

Yes indeed they can - it doesn't stop these sports people from repeatedly saying they havnt used drugs.

So we can surmise that it's a Fact very very many of them are lying both now & always  -
extreme desire / dedication / will power, Wanting to be the best - doesn't always make for a very honest person especially as the uninformed Masses want to believe these people are not using drugs of one kind or another.

Hypocrisy when most of the masses Drink alcohol/ smoke cigarettes/ cannabis/ heroin
Take every available prescription & over the counter drug they can to make them feel better
and get through their days.

But sportspeople can't use drugs.  ::)

Like I said you believe what you want.
It Makes zero difference to me.
 ;)

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2017, 02:27:34 PM »




I don't have any " heros " However if anyone in this " sport " can be seen as a positive influence it's Steve Reeves.

That's your opinion - I can think of many others as positive influences on this sport & some have likely used
or admitted using drugs of one kind or another.

No! because it's a fact that drug tests can be circumvented

Yes indeed they can - it doesn't stop these sports people from repeatedly saying they havnt used drugs.

So we can surmise that very very many of them tell lies - extreme desire / dedication / will power
Wanting to be the best - doesn't always make for a very honest person especially as the uninformed
Masses want to believe these people are not using drugs of one kind or another.

Hypocrisy when most of the masses Drink alcohol/ smoke cigarettes/ cannabis/ heroin
Take every available prescription & over the counter drug they can to make them feel better
and get through their days.

But sportspeople can't use drugs.  ::)


I have no problem with steroids , I don't use them personally and think they should be legal for all adults to use. But again , the time-line doesn't work for Reeves.

Anna Recksiek

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2017, 06:45:54 PM »



I don't know if he was using anything or not but if he was he was a shitty responder. He's not really that big and I know quite a few people that are way bigger and still look like shit compared to Reeves. We all know the guys with overdeveloped front delts, weak triceps and no hamstrings.

Reeves structure was proportionate for bodybuild like Flex. There are high school kids that are totally natural that are his size. It wasn't how much muscle he carried it was the way his frame carried it.
Compare a prime Reeves to the current Mr. O.
Who would you rather look like?

Never1AShow

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #108 on: September 19, 2017, 07:05:43 PM »
Grimek tried testosterone in the late 50 under Zeigler NOT 40s don't know where you got that from? and he said it didn't do anything for him.

Doesn't that just prove he was a liar?  Millions of people use testosterone, obviously because it does something for them.

Fact - bodybuilders have been lying about this forever because they don't want people to give credit to drugs versus hard work.  I've heard Craig Titus claim natural on TV Cripes sakes, that don't make it true.

tommywishbone

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2017, 08:20:20 PM »
Oh let's just say he was natural and call it a day.
a

Hypertrophy

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2017, 08:25:10 PM »
Oh let's just say he was natural and call it a day.

^this

Vince B

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2017, 08:43:46 PM »
I don't think a consensus of Getbiggers is the test for the truth of whether or not a champion from 1947 used testosterone or any other muscle enhancing drugs.

So what do we go by? Yes, testosterone and some other male hormone drugs were available in the 1940s and there was a popular book about the hormone and what it could do for men.
If we go by what the bodybuilders do today we would all assume those guys took whatever would help them win titles.
If we assume some got assistance from drugs what evidence do we have? There were NO reports or claims or charges of any bodybuilders using testosterone to build muscle. Nothing emerged
even after all of those guys died. No one said a word. That alone should be sufficient. I can tell you that by 1960 we all heard about steroids but no one fessed up. It didn't take long for that
information to be spread via magazines and other bodybuilders. It was considered cheating and not anything to be proud of. Some bodybuilders and weight lifters were using steroids after 1958.

The other way to look for evidence is to look for side effects like gynecomastia. Look at Steve Reeves and you won't find any signs of drug use.
Therefore we have to give those champions the benefit of the doubt and assume they were natural. That fits in with what we knew about what bodybuilding was all about in the past. In those
days bodybuilders were proud to be healthy, strong, and fit. The last thing that was acceptable was to cheat in some way and spoil the lifestyle. In those days if you had big muscles you were looked
down on as being muscle bound, egotistical, not that bright, and maybe even gay. They didn't need another reason for the public to have against what they did.

Trev

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2017, 02:45:56 AM »

He's dead and nobody will ever know for sure - However this level of size is achievable over time naturally. Use him as an ideal physique to shoot for and forget about all the useless questions.

DooM_

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #113 on: September 20, 2017, 04:04:40 AM »
his broad shoulders and structure with narrow waist made him look bigger , otherwise his level of muscle looks naturally attainable in those photos

illuminati

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #114 on: September 20, 2017, 08:03:01 AM »
I don't think a consensus of Getbiggers is the test for the truth of whether or not a champion from 1947 used testosterone or any other muscle enhancing drugs.

So what do we go by? Yes, testosterone and some other male hormone drugs were available in the 1940s and there was a popular book about the hormone and what it could do for men.
If we go by what the bodybuilders do today we would all assume those guys took whatever would help them win titles.
If we assume some got assistance from drugs what evidence do we have? There were NO reports or claims or charges of any bodybuilders using testosterone to build muscle. Nothing emerged
even after all of those guys died. No one said a word. That alone should be sufficient. I can tell you that by 1960 we all heard about steroids but no one fessed up. It didn't take long for that
information to be spread via magazines and other bodybuilders. It was considered cheating and not anything to be proud of. Some bodybuilders and weight lifters were using steroids after 1958.

The other way to look for evidence is to look for side effects like gynecomastia. Look at Steve Reeves and you won't find any signs of drug use.
Therefore we have to give those champions the benefit of the doubt and assume they were natural. That fits in with what we knew about what bodybuilding was all about in the past. In those
days bodybuilders were proud to be healthy, strong, and fit. The last thing that was acceptable was to cheat in some way and spoil the lifestyle. In those days if you had big muscles you were looked
down on as being muscle bound, egotistical, not that bright, and maybe even gay. They didn't need another reason for the public to have against what they did.




Vince - I don't agree with your points of view.

No proof as to whether he did or didn't
and I don't care either way.

Fact is mankind & his competitive nature / desire to be the best has from day one
sought ways to improve his performance.

It is not a recent thing at all.

Just drug testing & this whole natural load of bollocks thing.

oldgolds

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #115 on: September 20, 2017, 08:17:43 AM »
Not a natty....Just another liar.....Like John Grimek...and Marvin Eder...and a bunch of them.

Dave D

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #116 on: September 20, 2017, 08:20:03 AM »
I think he was a natural faker.

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #117 on: September 20, 2017, 02:13:39 PM »
The History of Steroids in Bodybuilding
Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'. When I see ignorance being masqueraded as fact I almost always feel compelled to join the discussion and refute some of the often outrageous statements being hurled about. I'm going to recap what's known about the history of anabolic steroid use in sports so I can refer people to this entry rather than go through it time and time again.

All reliable sources - publications by Terry Todd, John Fair, Randy Roach, Bill Starr, etc, as well as interviews and letters from John Ziegler, John Grimek, Bill March, etc - indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955. These 'trials' were short-lived, however, as the results were disappointing and testosterone use was deemed ineffective and carried the risk of harmful side-effects. A statistical analysis of Olympic-style Weightlifting performances published in the International Journal of the History of Sport concluded that Soviet athletes likely first used testosterone sometime between 1952 and 1956.

Dr. John Ziegler, physician for the U.S. Olympic Weightlifting team (i.e. the York team), described in interviews of learning about the Soviet use of testosterone injections at the 1954 World Weightlifting Championships in Vienna, Austria in October of that year. Some time after returning home, Ziegler convinced York affiliated lifters John Grimek, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara to be test subjects and receive testosterone injections. By Grimek's account, the results were disappointing. In a private letter, dated at the time, Grimek spoke of seeing nothing in the way of gains and quiting the injections because he felt he was actually regressing. Jim Park received only one injection which he claimed did nothing for him physically, but made him incredibly horny. It is unclear as to Kuzahara's experience but, in any case, it was not positive enough to warrant continued use and further experimentation was ceased. In light of the terrible side effects that Ziegler had heard of and witnessed Soviet users suffering, and lack of significant results in his own test subjects, no further experimentation with testosterone was tried by the York (U.S.) Weightlifting team for the duration of the 1950s.

This was not the end of Ziegler's involvement with steroids, however. Ziegler began work with CIBA Pharmaceuticals in 1955 to develop a testosterone derivative that would carry the anabolic properties of testosterone without the undesirable side effects. Preliminary results began coming in by 1956, and Dianabol was released to the U.S. prescription drug market in 1958 for use in wasting conditions. CIBA's competitor, Searle, beat them to the market, however, and introduced Nilevar, the first synthetic anabolic/androgenic steroid, to the prescription drug market in 1956 (used as a polio treatment).

In late 1959 (some claim as early as 1958, some as late as 1960) Ziegler decided to try the new Dianabol on some of the non-medal contending York lifters and enlisted Grimek to convince a few lifters to begin taking it under his (Ziegler's) supervision. Lower level or non-competitive lifters were chosen for the initial trials so as not to risk marring the performance of medal contenders at the upcoming 1960 Olympics (Dianabol was, at that time, a relatively untested drug and York chief Bob Hoffman was said to have feared trying it on his top lifters). Bill March, Tony Garcy, John Grimek, Ziegler himself and later Lou Riecke were the first Guinea Pigs, and the results were much more promising this time around.

From there, Dianabol use quickly spread to the entire York Weightlifting team. Now, up-and-coming York lifters and Strength and Health magazine writers such as Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs started letting the secret out to the bodybuilding community, and by the early-to-mid 1960s almost all high-level competitive bodybuilders were taking steroids in the weeks leading up to contests. This pre-contest cycling scheme by bodybuilders was based on the Weightlifters' practice of escalating steroid use in the weeks leading up to lifting meets - the logic being that just as the lifters wanted to be at their best (strongest) come meet day, bodybuilders wanted to peak at their biggest on the day of the contest. It didn't take long for steroid use to spill into the 'off-season' as well, as this allowed bodybuilders to build more ultimate muscle mass.

The man who would go on to become the first Mr. Olympia, Larry Scott, gained 8 pounds of muscle in two months between the 1960 Mr. Los Angeles (in which he placed third), and the 1960 Mr. California (which he won, defeating the two men who had placed above him in the Mr. Los Angeles two months earlier). A year earlier he had won the Mr. Idaho weighing just 152 pounds. Larry credits Rheo Blair, and his protein powder, as being instrumental in his sudden improvement. However, considering Larry's dramatic gains from that point onward, and Blair's reported possession of Nilevar a few years earlier before he even moved to California, it is quite likely that this time in 1960 also marks Larry's first usage of steroids (something to which he admits but, to my knowledge, hasn't specified the date).

But the early 1960s did't mark the true origins of bodybuilder's regular use of steroids, however. In an early edition of his book Getting Stronger, Bill Pearl told of meeting Arthur Jones (founder of the Nautilus line of training equipment and father of the "HIT" style of training) in 1958 and learning of Nilevar from him. After a little further investigation, Pearl began a twelve-week cycle of the steroid and gained 25 pounds. At around that same time, Irvin Johnson (aka Rheo H. Blair - 'father' of the first protein powders) is said to have had Searle's Nilevar in his possession, though he isn't believed to have been widely distributing it to bodybuilders at that time.

So what can we gather from all of this? First of all, no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958. From there it seems that knowledge of Nilevar and Dianabol to build muscle and strength was kept relatively in the closet until the early 1960s. After all, Hoffman did not want outside athletes to know his lifters' secrets and he was using their sudden gains via Dianabol to promote his supplement line and isometric training courses and racks. Bill Starr wrote that until he was a national calibre lifter with York in the early 1960s he had never heard of steroids. Reg Park (Mr. Universe 1951, 1958, 1965) said that the first he heard of them were in connection with rumours about East German and Soviet athletes during the 1960 Olympics, though he later heard of "steroids" being used on British POWs from Singapore in WWII as they were being nursed back to health in Australian hospitals. Chet Yorton (Mr. America 1966, Mr. Universe 1966, 1975) has said that he first heard of steroids (Nilevar) in 1964, and decided not to risk using them - Yorton went on to become one of the sports most outspoken campaigners against steroid use and founder of the first drug-tested, natural bodybuilding federation. The condition of national and world level bodybuilders appears to have taken a visible leap between 1960 to 1964.

As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes only, before that time. De Kruif himself made no connection between testosterone and possible athletic applications - his arguments were purely from the perspective of using testosterone to improve the vitality and health of aging men and those with specific conditions.

It has been said that John Grimek, upon reading publications such as de Kruif's, was inquiring about testosterone in the 1940s. But he would have had nothing other than a possible hunch that it could be used for athletic purposes, and no source or opportunity to experiment with it. It wasn't until 1954/1955 with Ziegler, that Grimek wrote of getting his first testosterone injections. It stands to reason that if even Grimek had no access to testosterone, and no knowledge of other top level bodybuilders or lifters using it before this - and as editor of Strength and Health magazine and second in command at York he certainly was in a position to know - then it is very unlikely that anyone in the west was using it for athletic/physique purposes before late 1954/1955. Given that these early experiments were unsuccessful and brief (likely because they knew little about dosing for increased strength and muscle mass), it is most likely that the first western bodybuilders began steroid use not with testosterone itself, but with Nilevar, sometime after 1956 to 1958. From there, Dianabol enters the picture at the elite level and by 1964 even the muscle magazines, such as Iron Man, were writing about what they called the "tissue building drugs".

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

For these reasons it can be stated with some certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using testosterone or steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58 (Pearl won the Mr. USA and Mr. Universe titles in 1956 before his knowledge of Nilevar). Some athletes' careers from the era, such as Reg Park's, do span the introduction of steroids into bodybuilding. In Park's case, he competed at 214 pounds when he won the Mr. Universe title in 1951, he weighed 215 when he won it the second time in 1958, and 216 when he placed 3rd in 1971 (at age 43 - he returned again in 1973 to place 2nd). If Park did jump on the steroid bandwagon when he learned of them in 1960, then they produced one pound of muscle in 11 years for him.

Vince B

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #118 on: September 20, 2017, 04:36:19 PM »
Here is a photo of Steve that I edited.

oldgolds

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #119 on: September 23, 2017, 07:29:17 AM »
The History of Steroids in Bodybuilding
Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'. When I see ignorance being masqueraded as fact I almost always feel compelled to join the discussion and refute some of the often outrageous statements being hurled about. I'm going to recap what's known about the history of anabolic steroid use in sports so I can refer people to this entry rather than go through it time and time again.

All reliable sources - publications by Terry Todd, John Fair, Randy Roach, Bill Starr, etc, as well as interviews and letters from John Ziegler, John Grimek, Bill March, etc - indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955. These 'trials' were short-lived, however, as the results were disappointing and testosterone use was deemed ineffective and carried the risk of harmful side-effects. A statistical analysis of Olympic-style Weightlifting performances published in the International Journal of the History of Sport concluded that Soviet athletes likely first used testosterone sometime between 1952 and 1956.

Dr. John Ziegler, physician for the U.S. Olympic Weightlifting team (i.e. the York team), described in interviews of learning about the Soviet use of testosterone injections at the 1954 World Weightlifting Championships in Vienna, Austria in October of that year. Some time after returning home, Ziegler convinced York affiliated lifters John Grimek, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara to be test subjects and receive testosterone injections. By Grimek's account, the results were disappointing. In a private letter, dated at the time, Grimek spoke of seeing nothing in the way of gains and quiting the injections because he felt he was actually regressing. Jim Park received only one injection which he claimed did nothing for him physically, but made him incredibly horny. It is unclear as to Kuzahara's experience but, in any case, it was not positive enough to warrant continued use and further experimentation was ceased. In light of the terrible side effects that Ziegler had heard of and witnessed Soviet users suffering, and lack of significant results in his own test subjects, no further experimentation with testosterone was tried by the York (U.S.) Weightlifting team for the duration of the 1950s.

This was not the end of Ziegler's involvement with steroids, however. Ziegler began work with CIBA Pharmaceuticals in 1955 to develop a testosterone derivative that would carry the anabolic properties of testosterone without the undesirable side effects. Preliminary results began coming in by 1956, and Dianabol was released to the U.S. prescription drug market in 1958 for use in wasting conditions. CIBA's competitor, Searle, beat them to the market, however, and introduced Nilevar, the first synthetic anabolic/androgenic steroid, to the prescription drug market in 1956 (used as a polio treatment).

In late 1959 (some claim as early as 1958, some as late as 1960) Ziegler decided to try the new Dianabol on some of the non-medal contending York lifters and enlisted Grimek to convince a few lifters to begin taking it under his (Ziegler's) supervision. Lower level or non-competitive lifters were chosen for the initial trials so as not to risk marring the performance of medal contenders at the upcoming 1960 Olympics (Dianabol was, at that time, a relatively untested drug and York chief Bob Hoffman was said to have feared trying it on his top lifters). Bill March, Tony Garcy, John Grimek, Ziegler himself and later Lou Riecke were the first Guinea Pigs, and the results were much more promising this time around.

From there, Dianabol use quickly spread to the entire York Weightlifting team. Now, up-and-coming York lifters and Strength and Health magazine writers such as Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs started letting the secret out to the bodybuilding community, and by the early-to-mid 1960s almost all high-level competitive bodybuilders were taking steroids in the weeks leading up to contests. This pre-contest cycling scheme by bodybuilders was based on the Weightlifters' practice of escalating steroid use in the weeks leading up to lifting meets - the logic being that just as the lifters wanted to be at their best (strongest) come meet day, bodybuilders wanted to peak at their biggest on the day of the contest. It didn't take long for steroid use to spill into the 'off-season' as well, as this allowed bodybuilders to build more ultimate muscle mass.

The man who would go on to become the first Mr. Olympia, Larry Scott, gained 8 pounds of muscle in two months between the 1960 Mr. Los Angeles (in which he placed third), and the 1960 Mr. California (which he won, defeating the two men who had placed above him in the Mr. Los Angeles two months earlier). A year earlier he had won the Mr. Idaho weighing just 152 pounds. Larry credits Rheo Blair, and his protein powder, as being instrumental in his sudden improvement. However, considering Larry's dramatic gains from that point onward, and Blair's reported possession of Nilevar a few years earlier before he even moved to California, it is quite likely that this time in 1960 also marks Larry's first usage of steroids (something to which he admits but, to my knowledge, hasn't specified the date).

But the early 1960s did't mark the true origins of bodybuilder's regular use of steroids, however. In an early edition of his book Getting Stronger, Bill Pearl told of meeting Arthur Jones (founder of the Nautilus line of training equipment and father of the "HIT" style of training) in 1958 and learning of Nilevar from him. After a little further investigation, Pearl began a twelve-week cycle of the steroid and gained 25 pounds. At around that same time, Irvin Johnson (aka Rheo H. Blair - 'father' of the first protein powders) is said to have had Searle's Nilevar in his possession, though he isn't believed to have been widely distributing it to bodybuilders at that time.

So what can we gather from all of this? First of all, no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958. From there it seems that knowledge of Nilevar and Dianabol to build muscle and strength was kept relatively in the closet until the early 1960s. After all, Hoffman did not want outside athletes to know his lifters' secrets and he was using their sudden gains via Dianabol to promote his supplement line and isometric training courses and racks. Bill Starr wrote that until he was a national calibre lifter with York in the early 1960s he had never heard of steroids. Reg Park (Mr. Universe 1951, 1958, 1965) said that the first he heard of them were in connection with rumours about East German and Soviet athletes during the 1960 Olympics, though he later heard of "steroids" being used on British POWs from Singapore in WWII as they were being nursed back to health in Australian hospitals. Chet Yorton (Mr. America 1966, Mr. Universe 1966, 1975) has said that he first heard of steroids (Nilevar) in 1964, and decided not to risk using them - Yorton went on to become one of the sports most outspoken campaigners against steroid use and founder of the first drug-tested, natural bodybuilding federation. The condition of national and world level bodybuilders appears to have taken a visible leap between 1960 to 1964.

As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes only, before that time. De Kruif himself made no connection between testosterone and possible athletic applications - his arguments were purely from the perspective of using testosterone to improve the vitality and health of aging men and those with specific conditions.

It has been said that John Grimek, upon reading publications such as de Kruif's, was inquiring about testosterone in the 1940s. But he would have had nothing other than a possible hunch that it could be used for athletic purposes, and no source or opportunity to experiment with it. It wasn't until 1954/1955 with Ziegler, that Grimek wrote of getting his first testosterone injections. It stands to reason that if even Grimek had no access to testosterone, and no knowledge of other top level bodybuilders or lifters using it before this - and as editor of Strength and Health magazine and second in command at York he certainly was in a position to know - then it is very unlikely that anyone in the west was using it for athletic/physique purposes before late 1954/1955. Given that these early experiments were unsuccessful and brief (likely because they knew little about dosing for increased strength and muscle mass), it is most likely that the first western bodybuilders began steroid use not with testosterone itself, but with Nilevar, sometime after 1956 to 1958. From there, Dianabol enters the picture at the elite level and by 1964 even the muscle magazines, such as Iron Man, were writing about what they called the "tissue building drugs".

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

For these reasons it can be stated with some certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using testosterone or steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58 (Pearl won the Mr. USA and Mr. Universe titles in 1956 before his knowledge of Nilevar). Some athletes' careers from the era, such as Reg Park's, do span the introduction of steroids into bodybuilding. In Park's case, he competed at 214 pounds when he won the Mr. Universe title in 1951, he weighed 215 when he won it the second time in 1958, and 216 when he placed 3rd in 1971 (at age 43 - he returned again in 1973 to place 2nd). If Park did jump on the steroid bandwagon when he learned of them in 1960, then they produced one pound of muscle in 11 years for him.



Grimek had 18 inch arms and low body fat.....Impossible drug free.....lots of naive people on here....They wanna believe...

NarcissisticDeity

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #120 on: September 23, 2017, 07:32:52 AM »
The History of Steroids in Bodybuilding
Periodically on the various internet bodybuilding forums someone makes a completely baseless statement about steroid use, when it started, and who was using them back in the 'old days'. When I see ignorance being masqueraded as fact I almost always feel compelled to join the discussion and refute some of the often outrageous statements being hurled about. I'm going to recap what's known about the history of anabolic steroid use in sports so I can refer people to this entry rather than go through it time and time again.

All reliable sources - publications by Terry Todd, John Fair, Randy Roach, Bill Starr, etc, as well as interviews and letters from John Ziegler, John Grimek, Bill March, etc - indicate that experimentation with testosterone for athletic purposes began in the U.S. sometime in either late 1954 or 1955. These 'trials' were short-lived, however, as the results were disappointing and testosterone use was deemed ineffective and carried the risk of harmful side-effects. A statistical analysis of Olympic-style Weightlifting performances published in the International Journal of the History of Sport concluded that Soviet athletes likely first used testosterone sometime between 1952 and 1956.

Dr. John Ziegler, physician for the U.S. Olympic Weightlifting team (i.e. the York team), described in interviews of learning about the Soviet use of testosterone injections at the 1954 World Weightlifting Championships in Vienna, Austria in October of that year. Some time after returning home, Ziegler convinced York affiliated lifters John Grimek, Jim Park and Yaz Kuzahara to be test subjects and receive testosterone injections. By Grimek's account, the results were disappointing. In a private letter, dated at the time, Grimek spoke of seeing nothing in the way of gains and quiting the injections because he felt he was actually regressing. Jim Park received only one injection which he claimed did nothing for him physically, but made him incredibly horny. It is unclear as to Kuzahara's experience but, in any case, it was not positive enough to warrant continued use and further experimentation was ceased. In light of the terrible side effects that Ziegler had heard of and witnessed Soviet users suffering, and lack of significant results in his own test subjects, no further experimentation with testosterone was tried by the York (U.S.) Weightlifting team for the duration of the 1950s.

This was not the end of Ziegler's involvement with steroids, however. Ziegler began work with CIBA Pharmaceuticals in 1955 to develop a testosterone derivative that would carry the anabolic properties of testosterone without the undesirable side effects. Preliminary results began coming in by 1956, and Dianabol was released to the U.S. prescription drug market in 1958 for use in wasting conditions. CIBA's competitor, Searle, beat them to the market, however, and introduced Nilevar, the first synthetic anabolic/androgenic steroid, to the prescription drug market in 1956 (used as a polio treatment).

In late 1959 (some claim as early as 1958, some as late as 1960) Ziegler decided to try the new Dianabol on some of the non-medal contending York lifters and enlisted Grimek to convince a few lifters to begin taking it under his (Ziegler's) supervision. Lower level or non-competitive lifters were chosen for the initial trials so as not to risk marring the performance of medal contenders at the upcoming 1960 Olympics (Dianabol was, at that time, a relatively untested drug and York chief Bob Hoffman was said to have feared trying it on his top lifters). Bill March, Tony Garcy, John Grimek, Ziegler himself and later Lou Riecke were the first Guinea Pigs, and the results were much more promising this time around.

From there, Dianabol use quickly spread to the entire York Weightlifting team. Now, up-and-coming York lifters and Strength and Health magazine writers such as Bill Starr and Tommy Suggs started letting the secret out to the bodybuilding community, and by the early-to-mid 1960s almost all high-level competitive bodybuilders were taking steroids in the weeks leading up to contests. This pre-contest cycling scheme by bodybuilders was based on the Weightlifters' practice of escalating steroid use in the weeks leading up to lifting meets - the logic being that just as the lifters wanted to be at their best (strongest) come meet day, bodybuilders wanted to peak at their biggest on the day of the contest. It didn't take long for steroid use to spill into the 'off-season' as well, as this allowed bodybuilders to build more ultimate muscle mass.

The man who would go on to become the first Mr. Olympia, Larry Scott, gained 8 pounds of muscle in two months between the 1960 Mr. Los Angeles (in which he placed third), and the 1960 Mr. California (which he won, defeating the two men who had placed above him in the Mr. Los Angeles two months earlier). A year earlier he had won the Mr. Idaho weighing just 152 pounds. Larry credits Rheo Blair, and his protein powder, as being instrumental in his sudden improvement. However, considering Larry's dramatic gains from that point onward, and Blair's reported possession of Nilevar a few years earlier before he even moved to California, it is quite likely that this time in 1960 also marks Larry's first usage of steroids (something to which he admits but, to my knowledge, hasn't specified the date).

But the early 1960s did't mark the true origins of bodybuilder's regular use of steroids, however. In an early edition of his book Getting Stronger, Bill Pearl told of meeting Arthur Jones (founder of the Nautilus line of training equipment and father of the "HIT" style of training) in 1958 and learning of Nilevar from him. After a little further investigation, Pearl began a twelve-week cycle of the steroid and gained 25 pounds. At around that same time, Irvin Johnson (aka Rheo H. Blair - 'father' of the first protein powders) is said to have had Searle's Nilevar in his possession, though he isn't believed to have been widely distributing it to bodybuilders at that time.

So what can we gather from all of this? First of all, no bodybuilder or lifter was using synthetic steroids before 1956 - they didn't exist. Most likely, only the very highest level West Coast bodybuilders knew of them by 1958. From there it seems that knowledge of Nilevar and Dianabol to build muscle and strength was kept relatively in the closet until the early 1960s. After all, Hoffman did not want outside athletes to know his lifters' secrets and he was using their sudden gains via Dianabol to promote his supplement line and isometric training courses and racks. Bill Starr wrote that until he was a national calibre lifter with York in the early 1960s he had never heard of steroids. Reg Park (Mr. Universe 1951, 1958, 1965) said that the first he heard of them were in connection with rumours about East German and Soviet athletes during the 1960 Olympics, though he later heard of "steroids" being used on British POWs from Singapore in WWII as they were being nursed back to health in Australian hospitals. Chet Yorton (Mr. America 1966, Mr. Universe 1966, 1975) has said that he first heard of steroids (Nilevar) in 1964, and decided not to risk using them - Yorton went on to become one of the sports most outspoken campaigners against steroid use and founder of the first drug-tested, natural bodybuilding federation. The condition of national and world level bodybuilders appears to have taken a visible leap between 1960 to 1964.

As for testosterone itself, Paul de Kruif's 1945 book "The Male Hormone" is often cited as "proof" that bodybuilders knew of and were using testosterone in the 1940s. But even though testosterone had been identified by researchers and isolated in laboratory settings as early as the 1930s, it didn't receive FDA approval as a prescription drug until 1950 and, therefore, was produced only sporadically and in small batches for research purposes only, before that time. De Kruif himself made no connection between testosterone and possible athletic applications - his arguments were purely from the perspective of using testosterone to improve the vitality and health of aging men and those with specific conditions.

It has been said that John Grimek, upon reading publications such as de Kruif's, was inquiring about testosterone in the 1940s. But he would have had nothing other than a possible hunch that it could be used for athletic purposes, and no source or opportunity to experiment with it. It wasn't until 1954/1955 with Ziegler, that Grimek wrote of getting his first testosterone injections. It stands to reason that if even Grimek had no access to testosterone, and no knowledge of other top level bodybuilders or lifters using it before this - and as editor of Strength and Health magazine and second in command at York he certainly was in a position to know - then it is very unlikely that anyone in the west was using it for athletic/physique purposes before late 1954/1955. Given that these early experiments were unsuccessful and brief (likely because they knew little about dosing for increased strength and muscle mass), it is most likely that the first western bodybuilders began steroid use not with testosterone itself, but with Nilevar, sometime after 1956 to 1958. From there, Dianabol enters the picture at the elite level and by 1964 even the muscle magazines, such as Iron Man, were writing about what they called the "tissue building drugs".

For a western bodybuilder or lifter to be using testosterone before late 1954/1955 he would had to have known more about the biochemistry of testosterone and it's potential effects than any western sports physician - and have had access to what was then a relatively little known prescription drug. He would also had to have known more about how to effectively dose it than John Ziegler, who would go on to co-develop Dianabol just a few years later. As for before late 1954/1955, nobody in the west can say for sure exactly when the Soviets began using testosterone, but the likely date is sometime before October 1954 and possibly as early as 1952.

As mentioned, testosterone was first approved for prescription as a cancer, wasting and burn treatment in the U.S. in 1950. Before that it was classified as an experimental drug and not available even to physicians. For a bodybuilder to be using testosterone before 1950 he would not only had to have known more about the biochemistry, dosing and potential usage of it than anybody else in the world (including the research scientists working with it), but also have had access to what was then an experimental drug, isolated sporadically in limited amounts for controlled research purposes, and not produced in quantity.

For these reasons it can be stated with some certainty that Steve Reeves, Clancy Ross, John Grimek, Jack Delinger, Reg Park, John Farbotnik, George Eiferman, etc - who all won major physique titles before the Soviets began using testosterone and before synthetic steroids were introduced in 1956 - were not using testosterone or steroids at the time of their Mr. America, Mr. USA and Mr. Universe wins. Furthermore, it is unlikely that any major title winner was a steroid user before 1957-58 (Pearl won the Mr. USA and Mr. Universe titles in 1956 before his knowledge of Nilevar). Some athletes' careers from the era, such as Reg Park's, do span the introduction of steroids into bodybuilding. In Park's case, he competed at 214 pounds when he won the Mr. Universe title in 1951, he weighed 215 when he won it the second time in 1958, and 216 when he placed 3rd in 1971 (at age 43 - he returned again in 1973 to place 2nd). If Park did jump on the steroid bandwagon when he learned of them in 1960, then they produced one pound of muscle in 11 years for him.






Quote
Grimek had 18 inch arms and low body fat.....Impossible drug free.....lots of naive people on here....They wanna believe...

Impossible for YOU perhaps. And I agree lots of naive people on here who want to believe EVERYONE was on since the dawn of creation. If you have something of substance to add feel free , We have a well established time-line of drug use in strength/bodydbuilding and Reeves predates that.


stuntmovie

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #121 on: September 23, 2017, 08:03:37 AM »
TOMMYWISHBONE, The following is solely based on my personal experience. .........I knew Reeves back in the 1950's and talked with him and worked with him a few times up until he passed away. He was always impressed by my bench prsss ability when I was in my teens.

He was a friend of my dad's which I have written about years ago.

Here are the three reason why I believe that Steve was a 'natural'.

1. Genetically ...He was gifted. In the late 1950's one of the Oakland, Ca. newspapers interviewed his mother who claimed that her son never had a cold, nor a cavity. (She also said lots more good stuff which I have long forgotten.)

2. At one time shortly before he passed away we had an hour long conversation about the current use of steroids within the athletic world and Steve got very emotional and said that it will be a major problem in the future and even possibly cause the demise of bodybuilding.

3. The world of athletic competition was entirely different way back then!
To the best of my knowledge and as explained be a couple of experts in the field (close friends), roids were 'sort of a secret' maintained within the world of olympic lifting ..... mainly within the USSR.

Roids and the use of roids were 'almost entirely' a mystery within the bodybuilding world ... the number of whom was relatively minor than the vast numbers today.

4. Reeves sure don't look like he ever used any type of steroid ....even at his best!

Thanks for reading , TW

PS ,,,, Let me know if you want to know who those "experts" are/were. You might even know or have known them yourself.

 


The Scott

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Re: Do you think that Steve Reeves was a fake natty?
« Reply #122 on: September 23, 2017, 08:04:50 AM »
Reeves looks about as drugged up as Phil Heath looks drug free.  Steve Reeves was one of the most handsome and well built men of all time.  This is not a case of jealousy overtaking people but maybe, just maybe it all boils down to sour grapes.