Training to failure

[xariusleloft]

How many of you train to failure or recommend training to failure?  I'm talking about nearly every set you do of every exercise you perform failure.  Not just one set but all 12 or 16 or even 20 that you hit per body part.  I have heard many controversial things regarding training to failure (damaging cns, no benefits, etc.) but would really like to hear your unbiased opinions.   Thanks everyone.

[pumpster]

You'll get all sorts of opinions. Realistically it's a continuum-the more intensity's put into each set, the less volume is needed and/or can be done. With higher volume, less of the sets are taken to failure-I used to do volume and trained to failure on each set, but with hindsight I don't think that volume and failure on each set's useful or viable. A lot of extra work for debatable upside. With low or moderate sets, training to failure on each set's viable. Adding post-failure reps further reduces the number of sets taken to failure.

Not going to failure on at least some sets leaves something on the table IMO, untapped potential. Those that have made gains without going to failure will never know what they've left unrealized, on top of which I'd never consider a workout emotionally and physically complete without pushing the limits somewhere along the way. The higher the ambition, the higher should be the intensity.

[GET_BIGGER]

I go to failure about 75% of the sets.

[xariusleloft]

Good posts, thank you.

[JPM]

Any hope of making steady increased progress in muscle size and strength is keyed around the recovery abilities.  The CNS will be the controling factor in this case. Going to failure can be self defeating if every set or exercise is taken to this extreme. Reaching a early sticking point, have that feeling of being burned out or even the lost of muscle size and strength can be the result for many. Stopping one or two reps before reaching that exercise failure point is like money in the bank for the next workout. You have given your CNS the opportunity to  function to it's best ability, to adaped to the new stress put upon it and to have the body grow and get stronger. . As the human body is an electro magnetic generator it will require that extra time to rebuild and meet the next demand (training) put upon it, not be overtaxed from workout to workout with not needed going to failure reps..
There are certain times when failure reps are used but that would not be on a regular training bases. These would be Higher reps breathing squat, DL, etc. Programs which use one or two sets at the most of a exercise and usually twice or three times a week. Checking your max on a exercise, force reps, drop sets, etc are others. But these would only to used on occasion, usually once or twice a month at the most, not as a regular scheme. And only on the last set of an exercise per muscle group.
In a perfect world at least one full rest day should be taken between any workout, insuring that enought rest and recovery has taken place. That's a 48 hour gap between sessions. After the third session an 72 hour rest period is required. That's why the standard three day a week workout (monday, wednsday and fridays  with a two day rest on saturday & sunday) has worked so well. Less is better in this regard. Good Luck.

[bmacsys]

Your not going to true muscular failure for 16 to 20 sets per bodypart. You would be in your local morgue. Sounds like failure to you is when reps start to get any degree of difficulty. You go to true momentary muscular failure on just one set of squats or deads and you will know what I am saying.

[JPM]

Going to failure is not when those final reps become extra hard and require more focus, that's  training with serious intent.  You may feel that you might have one or two good reps left before the bar can not be moved another inch (failure) with an ALL OUT EFFORT on your part. Or even having a spotter help you move the bar to complete a rep or two. That is not needed because your begin recuiting the CNS more and not the muscular system it's self. That is when the recovery system becomes over taxed and not always ready for the next training session.  Less will always be more for the most part. Good Luck.

[kicker]

I reach failure only on my last heavy set of each exercise.  For, me this is enough to test the limits yet not feel burnt out during the rest of the workout.  I believe if you truly reach failure on a set you shouldn't be able to repeat another set with the same number of reps.

[Jr. Yates]

I reach failure only on my last heavy set of each exercise.  For, me this is enough to test the limits yet not feel burnt out during the rest of the workout.  I believe if you truly reach failure on a set you shouldn't be able to repeat another set with the same number of reps.

I agree.

[Cavalier22]

i used to go failure on almost every set at decently high volume, and would also throw in drop sets and such.  in hindsight it was overtraining but what can you do

[pumpster]

I believe if you truly reach failure on a set you shouldn't be able to repeat another set with the same number of reps.

That's true about the number of reps, but it's quite possible that an additional set or two beyond the first one still has added value.

[Mr. Intenseone]

Bottomline....it eventually causes injury.

[pumpster]

Bottomline....it eventually causes injury.

Following that logic, one can remove all stress by not training at all and taking up yoga. Breathe in!

Injuries I've experienced were caused by the stresses created by the nature of particular exercises, going too heavy using low reps, and/or from insufficient warm-up. Nothing to do with failure, when the muscles and joints are thoroughly lubricated.

[Mr. Intenseone]

Following that logic, one can remove all stress by not training at all and taking up yoga. Breathe in!

LOL....okay, whatever dude!

[pumpster]

Kool man.

[xariusleloft]

Well, that sucks.

I have been training for the last year taking every set to failure (with the exception of SLDL's).  And yes, complete positive (concentric) failure.  For instance, my last workout I supersetted dips w/ chins.  After failing with bodyweight I did about six negatives on each set, for three sets.  Next I went to incline db press with bent over rows and took them to complete positive failure (couldn't do any more).  And so forth for bb bench press and behind neck pulldowns, pullovers, upright rows (with drop sets), and Military presses.  All at three sets to failure with some additions of static strips or drop sets on the last set of each.

So it seems that the consensus so far is to take each set a rep shy of positive (concentric) failure in an effort to keep the CNS at its optimum to help speed recovery and growth (hypertrophy and strength)?

Thanks for clarifying this for me.

[pumpster]

So it seems that the consensus so far is to take each set a rep shy of positive (concentric) failure in an effort to keep the CNS at its optimum to help speed recovery and growth (hypertrophy and strength)?

I don't know where you got that. What you're doing sounds good except that you're doing both volume AND going to failure a lot, a good recipie for burnout and lack of improvement. The only problem I can see  is the combination of high numbers of sets with intensity-it should be one or the other. If you're going to use that intensity I'd suggest moderate sets instead.

Tie the number of times your sets go to failure to the amount of volume you're doing-the less the number of sets, the higher the percentage of sets should be taken to failure.

My experience, if you do moderate sets in the 7-8 set range for smaller muscles, 9-10 sets for larger muscles, then most or all sets go to  failure and to negative failure on the last set, as you're doing. Works very well. I don't know about going quite as far into negative territory as you're doing, but if it works..
The more volume you're doing the less  the body can take of burning the candle at both ends, it's over-training. If you're doing volume ie german volume training, then by it's nature a good percentage of sets are stopped prior to failure, are essentially warmups.
It's really a continuum-number of sets determines intensity & failure percentage. Go beyond that and it's tough on the central nervous system and eventually, on your general energy level and progress. IMO moderate numbers of sets in the fashion you're doing them is ideal, with the focus on increasing the weight. I used to do volume and train as you did, but I've since found that it's not as efficient as less sets done explosively and intensely. I'm getting just as sore on 1/3 the number of sets I used to use, while going to failure on most or all sets and making each set count more.

[xariusleloft]

thanks pumpster, that helps clarify it some.  But, small muscle groups I usually hit 9 sets and large groups 12.  At this rate what would be the recommended number of times to hit failure? on the last set of each? 

I appreciate your posts, thanks. 

[pumpster]

9 & 12 sets is close enough, still moderate sets.

Keep in mind that this is just my experience, after years of doing volume. I go to positive failure all of the time, but not in a gruelling way, just going to the very last full rep. Some claim going to failure isn't necessary, which doesn't make sense to me.

What you're doing sounds good, given that you're already doing moderate sets, not volume-going to failure almost all or all of the time, then on the last set of each exercise, to negative failure. The only thing is the negative failure part-if you're going to positive failure on the other sets, going as far as you are into negative failure on the last one sounds gruelling. Bottom line's progress, if you can handle it and are improving, it's good. If not, I'd pull back from negative failure some of the time, to maintain energy towards doing more reps or more weight.

One other thing to consider would be to remove one exercise from each muscle-do 6 sets for arms, 9 for lats/chest. Try for a few workouts, but using the exact approach you're using, and see if less sets allows you to focus more on increasing weight or reps.

Another thing to try is compound supersets, hitting the same muscle with two consecutive sets, with only 5-8 seconds between sets. In this case, very little if any negative failure reps!

Have you tried alternates to negatives-partials or rest-pause reps..I find them less gruelling than negatives or negative failure.

[xariusleloft]

Thanks pumpster, that helps alot.  I only do the negatives on the bodyweight exercises to ensure I get a total of 10 to 12 reps.  On all the other exercises I don't do negs. and instead shock with static strips, partials, rest/pause, or forced reps.  Right now I am doing push/pull supersetting to increase my heart rate at the same time and shed some fat.

So, I'll stick with what I am doing and cut down on a few sets or exercises and take note of any differences.  Thanks for your help.

xarius.

[JPM]

Xariusleloft is100% correct. Keep the set of any execise one or two reps away from the actual state of total failure. Allow the all important CNS optimum opportunity from not being overtaxed and the positive opportunity to function as it is designed to do. Do train with serious intent but not to the point of excess nervious exhaustion, depleating the potentional recovery abilities of the CNS. If you find yourself shaking (hands, arms, etc) or completely drained after a heavy workout, that may be a clue to the overworking of the nervious system.

Most everyone will not need more than 6 sets for any larger muscle group (legs & back) or medium size (chest & delts..they act as a unit so should be trained that way) groups.  Even smaller muscle groups (triceps & biceps) would only require 2 or 3 sets at most. The ideal weekly split (if you must have one) would  be for the upper body together one day and the lower together for another day. Having  one day for the triceps & biceps or delts, for example, is counterproductive for most trainee's in the long run. Good luck.

[Ursus]

cycle your weights trust me

[JPM]

As Goudy said, absolutely cycle your weights. Periodization does have it's place also. Three reps can do something 18 reps can't and vice versa. Most everything in weight training can be judged on a personal bases and should be. You get to make the rules as to what works for you through experience and change. Too many BB'ers go by blind faith as to what the "experts" say and what the latest training fad might be. Good Luck