jose raymond offseason

[The_Iron_Disciple]

How long do you go off for? Try going off for a year or more (preferably 2 years, but 1 is usually enough). Completely off. And then compare it to where you were when you started (in terms of body fat and muscle mass, not just your weight on the scale).

I went back and re-read your post. And, quite honestly, your spot on. I took a year off ( just went back on a few weeks ago ). And in that time I went from 260 lbs or so at around 10 % bf to 260 lbs with 20 % bodyfat. Body composition completely changed. And now I am 270 at around 15 % bf after having " got back in the game " ( diet, training, supplements ).

So I agree with you. But still kinda crazy that Jose shrunk that quickly within a couple months. It's almost as if these these bodybuilders of today are just inflated with water.

[Cutlet767]

I went back and re-read your post. And, quite honestly, your spot on. I took a year off ( just went back on a few weeks ago ). And in that time I went from 260 lbs or so at around 10 % bf to 260 lbs with 20 % bodyfat. Body composition completely changed. And now I am 270 at around 15 % bf after having " got back in the game " ( diet, training, supplements ).

So I agree with you. But still kinda crazy that Jose shrunk that quickly within a couple months. It's almost as if these these bodybuilders of today are just inflated with water.

The thing is, the way the drugs work is mostly in composition changes. A lot of guys still hold the same weight when they come off, but the mass is gone... the steroids build this distinct level of muscle DENSITY whereby all the fat between the muscle is burned off and replaced with the new fibers and thus you essentially become a more muscular 260lbs. Try to think of it like putting air in a balloon vs putting concrete in a balloon. That's why you "feel" heavier on cycle as well. It's that density.. Muscle is denser and hence, "feels" heavier. That's exactly what is happening... the muscle just gets more dense, eliminating the body fat as well in the process. Of course, the muscle gets bigger as well, but it's really the density that allows us to distinguish between say for example the smaller guys who are like 190lbs ripped (at say 6ft) and on drugs vs the smaller guys who are 190lbs ripped who are not on drugs. You can usually always tell the difference. The naturally ripped 190 just looks "hollow" rather than SOLID.

You can obviously still gain weight through the added mass as you up the dose and build a lot of new fibers, but at some point that weight gain stops, and then you just get more and more dense... That's why bodybuilders say they're getting "harder" during prep. That's part of what causes the "hardening" effect, along with the all-day pumps you get.

[BigNJ]

just another in a long line of reasons why 'professional bodybuilding' is a joke.

And bodybuilders still argue that bodybuilding is not all drugs LOL

[The_Iron_Disciple]

The thing is, the way the drugs work is mostly in composition changes. A lot of guys still hold the same weight when they come off, but the mass is gone... the steroids build this distinct level of muscle DENSITY whereby all the fat between the muscle is burned off and replaced with the new fibers and thus you essentially become a more muscular 260lbs. Try to think of it like putting air in a balloon vs putting concrete in a balloon. That's why you "feel" heavier on cycle as well. It's that density.. Muscle is denser and hence, "feels" heavier. That's exactly what is happening... the muscle just gets more dense, eliminating the body fat as well in the process. Of course, the muscle gets bigger as well, but it's really the density that allows us to distinguish between say for example the smaller guys who are like 190lbs ripped (at say 6ft) and on drugs vs the smaller guys who are on 190lbs ripped who are not on drugs. You can usually always tell the difference.

You can obviously still gain weight through the added mass as you up the dose and build a lot of new fibers, but at some point that weight gain stops, and then you just get more and more dense... That's why bodybuilders say they're getting "harder" during prep. That's part of what causes the "hardening" effect, along with the all-day pumps you get.

Solid post

Do you feel insulin and growth hormone play their roles as well ?? For instance, isn't gh supposed to create new muscle fibers ? Perhaps one could use gh as a bridge ?

[Cutlet767]

Solid post

Do you feel insulin and growth hormone play their roles as well ?? For instance, isn't gh supposed to create new muscle fibers ? Perhaps one could use gh as a bridge ?

Yeah, the Growth Hormone is so anabolic in combination with AAS because it creates brand new cells, whereas AAS just makes the cells bigger. So, again back to the baloons. With AAS you're blowing up the balloon with concrete.. but then what if we added new balloons and blew them all up at the same time....

Insulin just shuttles nutrients extremely quickly and efficiently into the muscles eliminating the limits to which the muscles grow that exist even just using AAS alone. It's insanely anabolic. Following the balloon analogy, in a way you're increasing the balloon's capacity to hold concrete and making it bigger at the same time, creating a gigantic muscle. In combination with AAS and GH, training a couple days a week as you normally would naturally, and a ton of food. Well, you can get pretty big in the span of only a few months even.

A lot of the pros built all the competitive size they all have in less than 3 years. 5 years is a good solid number for continuous use of all these compounds. They then essentially maintain that size with elevated testosterone on a regular bases (Test in any of the available esters) and add the hardeners during the "cutting" phase because those DHT derivatives dry out the physique due to anti-estrogenic nature (they don't aromatise, so you don't get the bloat etc) and harden it in a different way than simply running Sustanon alone would (DHT is way more anabolic than Test). In 5 years they were already big enough that the additional mass didn't really matter. Just look at a lot of guys like Dexter and Jay.. they've looked the same for decades. Sometimes bigger and less conditioned. Sometimes a little smaller. But, essentially look the same to a non-trained eye. Those who grew slower, either had a slower genetic response, or didn't use enough.

(edit here: should also add that just like with natural training, with AAS of course you get the freaks like Ronnie who genetically have the capacity to blow up better. And this is where genetic response to drugs comes in. This is the core of pro bodybuilding. genetic response to the drugs in whatever combination that proves to be the most anabolic for you along with the food intake... but anyone can eat... and yeah, the training... but anyone can train. Then of course you factor in the genetic shape of the muscles, insertions and all that jazz that makes you look better than your friend, when you're both natural and untrained anyways. Just genetic variations in the joints, muscle shape andinsertions and skeletal structure).

So in summary:

AAS: Bigger cells
GH: New cells
Insulin: Considerably bigger cells, with added capacity for new size

When you understand why these guys look the way they do, you look at pro bodybuilding with completely different eyes.

[heenok]

DHT is NOT anabolic at all, its just a strongly androgenic byproduct of testosterone.
If it was the case people would grow out of taking proviron, which isnt the case sadly.

[Cutlet767]

DHT is NOT anabolic at all, its just a strongly androgenic byproduct of testosterone.
If it was the case people would grow out of taking proviron, which isnt the case sadly.

DHT is proven to be anabolic (it does have some anabolic activity)... but its AAS derivatives (Anadrol, Tren etc) are a lot more anabolic than pure Testosterone. Tren is around 500 times more anabolic.

[BayGBM]

When you understand why these guys look the way they do, you look at pro bodybuilding with completely different eyes.

But you are still looking.  Why is that?

[Cutlet767]

But you are still looking.  Why is that?

The same reason you go to a circus. To see freaks.

[The_Iron_Disciple]

Yeah, the Growth Hormone is so anabolic in combination with AAS because it creates brand new cells, whereas AAS just makes the cells bigger. So, again back to the baloons. With AAS you're blowing up the balloon with concrete.. but then what if we added new balloons and blew them all up at the same time....

Insulin just shuttles nutrients extremely quickly and efficiently into the muscles eliminating the limits to which the muscles grow that exist even just using AAS alone. It's insanely anabolic. Following the balloon analogy, in a way you're increasing the balloon's capacity to hold concrete and making it bigger at the same time, creating a gigantic muscle. In combination with AAS and GH, training a couple days a week as you normally would naturally, and a ton of food. Well, you can get pretty big in the span of only a few months even.

A lot of the pros built all the competitive size they all have in less than 3 years. 5 years is a good solid number for continuous use of all these compounds. They then essentially maintain that size with elevated testosterone on a regular bases (Test in any of the available esters) and add the hardeners during the "cutting" phase because those DHT derivatives dry out the physique due to anti-estrogenic nature (they don't aromatise, so you don't get the bloat etc) and harden it in a different way than simply running Sustanon alone would (DHT is way more anabolic than Test). In 5 years they were already big enough that the additional mass didn't really matter. Just look at a lot of guys like Dexter and Jay.. they've looked the same for decades. Sometimes bigger and less conditioned. Sometimes a little smaller. But, essentially look the same to a non-trained eye. Those who grew slower, either had a slower genetic response, or didn't use enough.

(edit here: should also add that just like with natural training, with AAS of course you get the freaks like Ronnie who genetically have the capacity to blow up better. And this is where genetic response to drugs comes in. This is the core of pro bodybuilding. genetic response to the drugs in whatever combination that proves to be the most anabolic for you along with the food intake... but anyone can eat... and yeah, the training... but anyone can train. Then of course you factor in the genetic shape of the muscles, insertions and all that jazz that makes you look better than your friend, when you're both natural and untrained anyways. Just genetic variations in the joints, muscle shape andinsertions and skeletal structure).

So in summary:

AAS: Bigger cells
GH: New cells
Insulin: Considerably bigger cells, with added capacity for new size

When you understand why these guys look the way they do, you look at pro bodybuilding with completely different eyes.

Very cool explanation. And I'm impressed that you can take a somewhat complex subject and make it very easy to understand. Will be saving this post of yours, Cutlet. You need to post more, my friend.

[Cutlet767]

Very cool explanation. And I'm impressed that you can take a somewhat complex subject and make it very easy to understand. Will be saving this post of yours, Cutlet. You need to post more, my friend.

Not to say anyone who decides to take all these drugs is going to look good (Bostin Loyd looks like shit and always has frankly even on stage at his "best", considering what he takes), but with enough commitment to consistent use of the drugs in the right combinations and just training all the time as you normally would naturally (4 days a week is enough...) + eating more, and you can get pretty far... The problem people (people being, dedicated naturals with a liberal view on gear use) face is, no one really wants to look like the pros do. Not many people want to sentence themselves to a lifetime of dependency on drugs, and a lot of people just don't want to be associated with the social stigma of being an obvious steroid user. It's the stigma, the fear of needles and the side effects, both short and long term, media hysteria etc that really puts most people off.

Also diminishing returns with regards to the doses kicks in much earlier than people would expect for many people... There's only so much of the drugs the body can use... People doing 10 grams etc just wasting their time.

[heenok]

DHT is proven to be anabolic (it does have some anabolic activity)... but its AAS derivatives (Anadrol, Tren etc) are a lot more anabolic than pure Testosterone. Tren is around 500 times more anabolic.

DHT derivatives (winstrol, masteron, primo, anavar) are actually much weaker drugs than the aromatizing one and the 19-nors
Most of those can be used by WOMEN
only exception is anadrol, on paper its a DHT but actually very estrogenic

take two people, put one on a 8 week test prop cycle (100mg ED), and the other on a 8 week mast prop cycle (100mg ED too)
at the end of the cycle the one using test will have gained much much more muscle than the masteron

by the way tren is not a DHT derivative its a 19-nor
and probably the strongest injectable there is

[Cutlet767]

DHT derivatives (winstrol, masteron, primo, anavar) are actually much weaker drugs than the aromatizing one and the 19-nors
Most of those can be used by WOMEN
only exception is anadrol, on paper its a DHT but actually very estrogenic

take two people, put one on a 8 week test prop cycle (100mg ED), and the other on a 8 week mast prop cycle (100mg ED too)
at the end of the cycle the one using test will have gained much much more muscle than the masteron

by the way tren is not a DHT derivative its a 19-nor
and probably the strongest injectable there is

Hmm, good insight. Yes you're right about the DHT derivatives being weaker. What I was thinking of was 19-nor (Tren) being more anabolic...

[Simple Simon]

Yeah, the Growth Hormone is so anabolic in combination with AAS because it creates brand new cells, whereas AAS just makes the cells bigger. So, again back to the baloons. With AAS you're blowing up the balloon with concrete.. but then what if we added new balloons and blew them all up at the same time....

Insulin just shuttles nutrients extremely quickly and efficiently into the muscles eliminating the limits to which the muscles grow that exist even just using AAS alone. It's insanely anabolic. Following the balloon analogy, in a way you're increasing the balloon's capacity to hold concrete and making it bigger at the same time, creating a gigantic muscle. In combination with AAS and GH, training a couple days a week as you normally would naturally, and a ton of food. Well, you can get pretty big in the span of only a few months even.

A lot of the pros built all the competitive size they all have in less than 3 years. 5 years is a good solid number for continuous use of all these compounds. They then essentially maintain that size with elevated testosterone on a regular bases (Test in any of the available esters) and add the hardeners during the "cutting" phase because those DHT derivatives dry out the physique due to anti-estrogenic nature (they don't aromatise, so you don't get the bloat etc) and harden it in a different way than simply running Sustanon alone would (DHT is way more anabolic than Test). In 5 years they were already big enough that the additional mass didn't really matter. Just look at a lot of guys like Dexter and Jay.. they've looked the same for decades. Sometimes bigger and less conditioned. Sometimes a little smaller. But, essentially look the same to a non-trained eye. Those who grew slower, either had a slower genetic response, or didn't use enough.

(edit here: should also add that just like with natural training, with AAS of course you get the freaks like Ronnie who genetically have the capacity to blow up better. And this is where genetic response to drugs comes in. This is the core of pro bodybuilding. genetic response to the drugs in whatever combination that proves to be the most anabolic for you along with the food intake... but anyone can eat... and yeah, the training... but anyone can train. Then of course you factor in the genetic shape of the muscles, insertions and all that jazz that makes you look better than your friend, when you're both natural and untrained anyways. Just genetic variations in the joints, muscle shape andinsertions and skeletal structure).

So in summary:

AAS: Bigger cells
GH: New cells
Insulin: Considerably bigger cells, with added capacity for new size

When you understand why these guys look the way they do, you look at pro bodybuilding with completely different eyes.

For a self confessed natty you seem to be pretty well versed in the use of hormones.

Why the interest in something you are not interested in?

[Cutlet767]

For a self confessed natty you seem to be pretty well versed in the use of hormones.

Why the interest in something you are not interested in?

"natty" is a subjective term. I use everything that isn't an exogenous hormone or a precursor to one. The reason I refrain from using them is because of the dependency on using them just to maintain. When you stop, you lose the benefits. And the benefits are just too many to deal with losing just because you can't use the drug anymore.

I'm interested in them, because I find them fascinating. And I follow bodybuilding because I find it entertaining.

[njflex]

"natty" is a subjective term. I use everything that isn't an exogenous hormone or a precursor to one. The reason I refrain from using them is because of the dependency on using them just to maintain. When you stop, you lose the benefits. And the benefits are just too many to deal with losing just because you can't use the drug anymore.

I'm interested in them, because I find them fascinating. And I follow bodybuilding because I find it entertaining.

nice work here cutlet..

[Simple Simon]

"natty" is a subjective term. I use everything that isn't an exogenous hormone or a precursor to one. The reason I refrain from using them is because of the dependency on using them just to maintain. When you stop, you lose the benefits. And the benefits are just too many to deal with losing just because you can't use the drug anymore.

I'm interested in them, because I find them fascinating. And I follow bodybuilding because I find it entertaining.

Interesting, whats your current "stack"?

[Cutlet767]

Interesting, whats your current "stack"?

Preworkout, Creatine and whey protein. I've tried the usual Prime, Triubulus, and have seen some benefit in using DAA. There's a noticeable benefit in using creatine. I'm able to get more reps on most lifts than if I didn't supplement with. But, I've trained without all of these as well, and whilst I notice a drop in performance (especially without pre workout), it's not big enough for me to depend on them to get my workouts in and make gains. Now if I could find a bodybuilder who can say the same about gear, even if he happened to be a genetic anomaly that can maintain the gains built with gear when he's off it, I'd still be impressed. Shit, even if you could still manage to get ripped and impressive at a lower body weight and look comparable to what you did when you were ripped on gear but smaller (and completely clean) I'd still be impressed. None of them can.

In before someone cites Levrone. Very unreliable source, even though he claims he did his first transformation "naturally", just look at what he looks like now compared to that transformation to give you an idea of whether he was actually drug free as he claimed. Slightly higher doses of TRT is not drug free.

[Archer77]

His organs are expanding.

[spiro]

When you come off, you lose everything and then SOME. That's just what happens. It comes off FAST depending on how long it takes for the drugs to clear from your system fully.

Some pro bodybuilders have come off and had a little something left, but generally they all look like shit off compared to even natural guys. Usually because they don't have the natural androgen levels (Testosterone to Estrogen) to promote and maintain substantial lean mass to fat ratio. Looking at the science behind it, you can understand why it's not possible to look good off the drugs no matter if you "keep training" with a "good diet". Stupid talk on steroid boards giving kids false hope.

These guys are abusing shit. DHT derivatives etc. They all cause epic shut down (Masteron, Tren, EQ, Winny all DHT derivatives shut you down badly. Yeah you still function with the Test base, but when they all come out, you are shut down to hell). The fat stores intra-muscularly mostly when you come off gear (and it's especially obvious when they try to get lean again), rather than between the skin and muscle in the usual way. That's why they all look like shit off no matter what they do.

Without the gear, the male body is running on empty. It's no longer about the gym or about your food, you just become medically fucked up because you destroyed your natural androgens. The true key to building muscle and losing fat in the absence of gear. The gym is the least of your worries.

A lot of them don't even know what they are truly getting themselves into, or don't care. Fucking stupid.

ON a side note, even as little as 1 cycle for 2-3 weeks can cause a long term fuck up to your body (not for everyone, but how the fuck would you know if it will happen to you or not), which is why those who decide to use anything hormonal should just lock themselves in and throw away the key.

Jesus not this shit again. That's why you go on trt numbnuts. I'd rather be jacked 20-50 and then go on trt then be natty my whole life. Being natural is boring. It's not for everyone that is why you fucking stay on something even if it's just ten mg of dbols a day.

If you have your shit together a good job etc gear makes life a lot more fun. My personal plan which I have done successfully for the last decade is use moderate dose and then cruise when you need a break. I plan on doing this until 50. Once I'm 50 I will reavulate. If I'm having any health issues drop down to trt.

[Simple Simon]

Preworkout, Creatine and whey protein. I've tried the usual Prime, Triubulus, and have seen some benefit in using DAA. There's a noticeable benefit in using creatine. I'm able to get more reps on most lifts than if I didn't supplement with. But, I've trained without all of these as well, and whilst I notice a drop in performance (especially without pre workout), it's not big enough for me to depend on them to get my workouts in and make gains. Now if I could find a bodybuilder who can say the same about gear, even if he happened to be a genetic anomaly that can maintain the gains built with gear when he's off it, I'd still be impressed. Shit, even if you could still manage to get ripped and impressive at a lower body weight and look comparable to what you did when you were ripped on gear but smaller (and completely clean) I'd still be impressed. None of them can.

In before someone cites Levrone. Very unreliable source, even though he claims he did his first transformation "naturally", just look at what he looks like now compared to that transformation to give you an idea of whether he was actually drug free as he claimed. Slightly higher doses of TRT is not drug free.

Lol, fucking creatine, I knew you were going to write that.
Temp water bloat, it does absolutely fuck all.

You are critical about the temp benefits of steroids and losing all plus more when you come off.
Wake up call, bodybuilding is temporary, you can take all the supps you like but when you stop taking them and stop lifting and eating like a bodybuilder it all comes off again.

You carry on spending all your money on bullshit test boosters and I will carry on a with a shot a week of test that costs less than a dollar.

Natty for the wrong reasons of peace.

[Deadlifted]

Hope the baby will be safely delivered, looks like he might even have twins! 

[spiro]

Lol, fucking creatine, I knew you were going to write that.
Temp water bloat, it does absolutely fuck all.

You are critical about the temp benefits of steroids and losing all plus more when you come off.
Wake up call, bodybuilding is temporary, you can take all the supps you like but when you stop taking them and stop lifting and eating like a bodybuilder it all comes off again.

You carry on spending all your money on bullshit test boosters and I will carry on a with a shot a week of test that costs less than a dollar.

Natty for the wrong reasons of peace.

No kidding when I was natty and stopped training for a week I lost all my "gains" lol what gains a bit of abs and chest. Being on isn't for everyone but you can't knock it until you try it. It makes training worth it. You get what you put into your training. I use to bust my ass natty and barely looked like I lifted a weight with clothes on. My arms sucked ass. My arms are big now I look great year round. I'm healthy and feel great and I love the attention. It's actually everything I hoped for.

[Cutlet767]

Lol, fucking creatine, I knew you were going to write that.
Temp water bloat, it does absolutely fuck all.

You are critical about the temp benefits of steroids and losing all plus more when you come off.
Wake up call, bodybuilding is temporary, you can take all the supps you like but when you stop taking them and stop lifting and eating like a bodybuilder it all comes off again.

You carry on spending all your money on bullshit test boosters and I will carry on a with a shot a week of test that costs less than a dollar.

Natty for the wrong reasons of peace.

Creatine works. I don't need it though. All these supps obviously become useless to you when you're blasting Test...

It doesn't "come off" when you stop lifting and eating like a bodybuilder when you train naturally. Jabbing yourself every day or every other day just to maintain your look is, in my opinion, stupid and extremely laughable.

No kidding when I was natty and stopped training for a week I lost all my "gains" lol what gains a bit of abs and chest. Being on isn't for everyone but you can't knock it until you try it. It makes training worth it. You get what you put into your training. I use to bust my ass natty and barely looked like I lifted a weight with clothes on. My arms sucked ass. My arms are big now I look great year round. I'm healthy and feel great and I love the attention. It's actually everything I hoped for.

How many years did you train consistently for naturally? What was your diet? This just sounds like a cop-out... sounds like you just don't know how to train and eat properly.... Based on this post it just looks to me like you were looking for a shortcut and were impatient. Nothing wrong with that, but it just shows you have a weak mind.

[Hulkotron]

Preworkout, Creatine and whey protein. I've tried the usual Prime, Triubulus, and have seen some benefit in using DAA. There's a noticeable benefit in using creatine. I'm able to get more reps on most lifts than if I didn't supplement with. But, I've trained without all of these as well, and whilst I notice a drop in performance (especially without pre workout), it's not big enough for me to depend on them to get my workouts in and make gains. Now if I could find a bodybuilder who can say the same about gear, even if he happened to be a genetic anomaly that can maintain the gains built with gear when he's off it, I'd still be impressed. Shit, even if you could still manage to get ripped and impressive at a lower body weight and look comparable to what you did when you were ripped on gear but smaller (and completely clean) I'd still be impressed. None of them can.

In before someone cites Levrone. Very unreliable source, even though he claims he did his first transformation "naturally", just look at what he looks like now compared to that transformation to give you an idea of whether he was actually drug free as he claimed. Slightly higher doses of TRT is not drug free.

Have you tried not taking any of this shit for a while and monitoring your progress?

I suggest giving it a go if not.