Just booked my ticket to go see Richard Dawkins next week.

[SF1900]

The problem is scientific methods are incompatible with the transcendant yet ironically are demanded to be forcefit into discussions of spirituality.  Natural methods can't measure or replicate supernatural properties (God).  Since God stands outside the natural, testable, observable world and he must be approached on his terms as set forth in scripture.  Either you are willing and desire to do so or you aren't and don't.   You don't demand things of God, you willfully submit to him....that's when he reveals himself......on his terms, not the world's.  

Proof is a subjective concept and is negotiable. Individuals differ in the amounts and types of validation to proof something.

And on that note, proving whether or not God exists, according to your strict terms, is impossible.

If that's the case, all we can do is agree to disagree.

[Man of Steel]

And on that note, proving whether or not God exists, according to your strict terms, is impossible.

If that's the case, all we can do is agree to disagree.

That's just it....they aren't my terms....they're God's.  In the end, if you choose not to abide by his terms then yes there's little else to say.

I desired to know the reality of God and I surrendered to him, prayed to him, honestly sought him.....and he responded in a way that changed me.

[The True Adonis]

That's just it....they aren't my terms....they're God's.  In the end, if you choose not to abide by his terms then yes there's little else to say.

I desired to know the reality of God and I surrendered to him, prayed to him, honestly sought him.....and he responded in a way that changed me.

You changed yourself, you just don`t realize it.

[SF1900]

That's just it....they aren't my terms....they're God's.  In the end, if you choose not to abide by his terms then yes there's little else to say.

I desired to know the reality of God and I surrendered to him, prayed to him, honestly sought him.....and he responded in a way that changed me.

And if they are Gods terms, then all scientific methods will be pointless, because as you stated, he is impossible to measure.

Again, agree to disagree. You claim that you surrendered to God and youre changed. And I claim that believing in God has done nothing for me and not believing has positively changed me. That is my subjective world. No one can say its true or false, but me.

So, again, why even debate then? lol

[Man of Steel]

You changed yourself, you just don`t realize it.

To be honest, from your chair, that is a fair conclusion to reach.

I can only assure you that the Lord entered my life and the Holy Spirit of God has filled me and changed me from the inside out almost instantly.

I can share with you evidence that validates the bible via archeological findings, non-biblical contemporaneous writings that validate Christ's divinity and resurrection, prophetic scripture that has been fulfilled, to my personal divine experiences with God and not to forget the millions of other personal testimonies of other folks divine appointments.  

It's up to each individual to truly be proactive and evaluate that information.  

If folks that have no belief refuse to proactively evaluate what believer's present them and simply stick to "I refuse to believe unless validated with naturalistic, scientific methods only" then what many assume to be true will often be proven to be true if all they seek after is what they desire to be true.

[Man of Steel]

And if they are Gods terms, then all scientific methods will be pointless, because as you stated, he is impossible to measure.

Again, agree to disagree. You claim that you surrendered to God and youre changed. And I claim that believing in God has done nothing for me and not believing has positively changed me. That is my subjective world. No one can say its true or false, but me.

So, again, why even debate then? lol

Because millions of others have claimed the same or similar as I have.....we make up a huge body of evidence.

E-kul says it's simply mass delusion, but that's an avoidance tactic.....a brush off.

Why debate?  As I mentioned to TA we're called to share our faith and as I noted in another thread yesterday and many prior to it:

All a believer can do when speaking to an atheist is try and understand their perspective, give insights into objections they have, answer questions where able and simply demonstrate that the believer represents Christ.  

The discussion can feel pointless to some, but I don't speak about my faith hoping to convert an atheist to Christ.  Now, if that happens then awesome, but I'm under no delusion that it will....firm choices have been made.  

I'm speaking to those that haven't made a choice and that aren't speaking because they may not know what to say.  Atheists and agnostics are at the forefront of most discussion because they have made a definite choice about God and choose to voice it and engage theists.  I use those dialogues as opportunities to provide the other side of the coin - the Christian answer to the atheist question.  I'm not always successful, but I learn as I go.

[SF1900]

Because millions of others have claimed the same or similar as I have.....we make up a huge body of evidence.

E-kul says it's simply mass delusion, but that's an avoidance tactic.....a brush off.

Why debate?  As I mentioned to TA we're called to share our faith and as I noted in another thread yesterday and many prior to it:

All a believer can do when speaking to an atheist is try and understand their perspective, give insights into objections they have, answer questions where able and simply demonstrate that they represent Christ.  

The discussion can feel pointless to some, but I don't speak about my faith hoping to convert an atheist to Christ.  Now, if that happens then awesome, but I'm under no delusion that it will....firm choices have been made.  

I'm speaking to those that haven't made a choice and that aren't speaking because they may not know what to say.  Atheists and agnostics are at the forefront of most discussion because they have made a definite choice about God and choose to voice it and engage theists.  I use those dialogues as opportunities to provide the other side of the coin - the Christian answer to the atheist question.  I'm not always successful, but I learn as I go.

Sorry, the fact that millions of people have found god does not mean he exists. Millions of people often believe things and it does not necessarily make it true. There are many sociohistorical reasons why people believe in god that have nothing to do with scientific evidence. I am sure if we dig deep enough, we can find sociological and anthropological reasons as to why God has survived and continues until this day. This is may provide evidence for another phenomena, but it does not provide evidence that a God actually exists. And sorry to say, but that line of reasoning (millions of people have experienced god and therefore we make up a huge body of evidence) has already been taken to task many of times. This in no way proves a God exists from a scientific standpoint.

I only get involved when theists try to violate separation of church and state. If you want to believe in your own home or church, I do not care. But leave your God to you. I don't want it in my life or in my laws. Plain and simple.

[Man of Steel]

Sorry, the fact that millions of people have found god does not mean he exists. Millions of people often believe things and it does not necessarily make it true. There are many sociohistorical reasons why people believe in god that have nothing to do with scientific evidence. I am sure if we dig deep enough, we can find sociological and anthropological reasons as to why God has survived and continues until this day. This is may provide evidence for another phenomena, but it does not provide evidence that a God actually exists. And sorry to say, but that line of reasoning (millions of people have experienced god and therefore we make up a huge body of evidence) has already been taken to task many of times.

I only get involved when theists try to violate separation of church and state. If you want to believe in your own home or church, I do not care. But leave your God to you. I don't want it in my life or in my laws. Plain and simple.

There's nothin to be sorry about.

Again, the body of believers sharing their divine experiences is not aligned with scientific evidence, but that doesn't negate it as evidence.  It just doesn't meet your standard of criteria in that you want scientific, natural methods of man to prove out the transcendant and divine.  

Can't produce God in a test tube and centrifuge or even the Hadron Collider.

Yes, you can use use sociology and anthropology to make a case for the history of religion...no argument.  

[SF1900]

There's nothin to be sorry about.

Again, the body of believers sharing their divine experiences is not aligned with scientific evidence, but that doesn't negate it as evidence.  It just doesn't meet your standard of criteria in that you want scientific, natural methods of man to prove out the transcendant and divine.  

Can't produce God in a test tube and centrifuge or even the Hadron Collider.

Yes, you can use use sociology and anthropology to make a case for the history of religion...no argument.  

Okay, I misspoke. It is evidence, its just not good or sufficient evidence to prove the existence of a God, according to my standards.

Their experiences align more with subjective reality. Not objective reality.

[Man of Steel]

Okay, I misspoke. It is evidence, its just not good or sufficient evidence to prove the existence of a God, according to my standards.

Their experiences align more with subjective reality. Not objective reality.

I understand what you're saying. 

[SF1900]

I understand what you're saying. 

As stated previously, I "believe" that the experience of god can better be explained by sociology, biology, philosophy, psychology,anthropology, etc, as opposed to the actual existence of a god.

But I have not done this research, so I can't speak on specifics. In my opinion, it makes more sense to align the belief in a God due to sociohistorical reasons.

[Man of Steel]

As stated previously, I "believe" that the experience of god can better be explained by sociology, biology, philosophy, psychology,anthropology, etc, as opposed to the actual existence of a god.

But I have not done this research, so I can't speak on specifics. In my opinion, it makes more sense to align the belief in a God due to sociohistorical reasons.

Ok, I hear you.  I just want folks to cut to the chase, humble themselves, surrender to his terms and seek him earnestly.  Saves a ton of time!!  


Unfortunately time is something we're not guaranteed to have a lot of.

[SF1900]

Ok, I hear you.  I just want folks to cut to the chase, humble themselves, surrender to his terms and seek him earnestly.  Saves a ton of time!! 

Eh, I'll pass on that one. Im too busy watching bodybuilding videos. Maybe tomorrow. 

[Man of Steel]

Eh, I'll pass on that one. Im too busy watching bodybuilding videos. Maybe tomorrow.  

Hey, we all gotta have some glittery-panty, muscle pagaent time! 

[Man of Steel]

surly its Gods wants not yours that matter?

As a believer I represent Christ and spread his good news.  I align my will according to his.

[Man of Steel]

knowing gods will  is a lifetime activity which when engaged with allows me to let other people lead their lives as they and their god (s etc ) see fit

I would go further and suggest that understanding God's full will couldn't be accomplished within a 1000 lifetimes.  I do agree that understanding God's will take the rest of my life, but he has provided specific glimpses that are easily understandable immediately.

I spread his gospel and let others lead their lives however they see fit (they're free to choose to live however).  If challenged on facets of my faith I try and respond out of respect for the challenger as best I'm able....I don't always succeed.

[BigCyp]

I am skilled in getting people to open up very early on, it is rare for me to meet someone and not soon discover their inner workings and core beliefs.  Because I am very selective who I choose to spend time with, I make it a habit to learn about others quickly.

Oh brother.