NYPD Chokehold Cop - This should be the real Ferguson outrage

[The True Adonis]

If GB is a microcosm of reality, then it's pretty clear from reading this thread that white people hate-and care less-about unjustified killings of blacks by white cops.

If you have hate in your heart, that's fine.  So, pick the hill you guys want to die on, and live with your decision.

Not everything is about race you know.  Stop being a moron.

[Archer77]

Not everything is about race you know.  Stop being a moron.

We are all horrible people for having a different opinion than hers. 

[240 is Back]

I would not ban that technique at all.  From the video it would be harmless.  Kids at playgrounds are more aggressive than that. 

But it IS banned.  It IS against NYPD policy.  Just or unjust, it is the current policy, and the cop using that move knew it and was trained well not to use it.

Cop is either ignorant of policy (incompetent), or he doesnt give single fcks (insubordination).   Either way, he's a shitty cop and should be pushing paper, not bad guys.

[Archer77]

But it IS banned.  It IS against NYPD policy.  Just or unjust, it is the current policy, and the cop using that move knew it and was trained well not to use it.

Cop is either ignorant of policy (incompetent), or he doesnt give single fcks (insubordination).   Either way, he's a shitty cop and should be pushing paper, not bad guys.

 A chokehold is defined by the NYPD as “any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.”
 Garner did not die of asphyxiation. He was also talking during the incident. The preliminary autopsy showed no damage to Garner’s windpipe or neck bones.

I'm throwing this out there for people to chew on.

[240 is Back]

A chokehold is defined by the NYPD as “any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.”
 Garner did not die of asphyxiation. He was talking during the incident. The preliminary autopsy showed no damage to Garner’s windpipe or neck bones.

Doesn't matter if the move killed him, or if his death was due to being a gross fatass.  I already said don't charge the cop with murder or whatever.

I just said the cop should be kicked off the force.  Because he used a banned move.  This is undeniable.

Don't fire the dude for killing anyone.  Fire him for using a damn chokehold.  He opened up the NYPD for lawsuit, he broke NYPD rules, and that's something important. 

[Archer77]

Doesn't matter if the move killed him, or if his death was due to being a gross fatass.  I already said don't charge the cop with murder or whatever.

I just said the cop should be kicked off the force.  Because he used a banned move.  This is undeniable.

Don't fire the dude for killing anyone.  Fire him for using a damn chokehold.  He opened up the NYPD for lawsuit, he broke NYPD rules, and that's something important. 

I was just putting that information out there.

[Howard]

Should have listen to the cops..mabye his fat ass wouldn't be dead..

This x 100.

In a perfect world with perfect cops, the prefect amount of force would always be used to subdue a perp.
Cops are human and nobody should go out of there way to ignore or disrespect the officer's request.

In this case the video makes it clear, that the large man fails to comply with the cops demands.
If the cop turns out to be wrong, you take it up with his superior and file a formal complaint or sue.

The sad reality is, street people don't file suits or make formal complaints to officials.
Their norm is to settle things right there and then via verbal or physical confrontation.
The problem with THAT, is, it isn't how our legal system was meant to work.

FYI, big time organized crime, like the infamous mafia or corrupt officials knew how to work the system.
It's known as bribes and kick backs so the cops look the other way or ignore you.
Yes, the unauthorized selling of ciggs law is pretty dumb, but wtf.
What incentive does the cop have for ignoring him and letting him break this goofy law? NOTHING but grief and risk  losing his job.

[Thick Nick]

if the man refuses, you do what you are trained to do - take him down with a legal move.  Keep him on the ground with a legal move.  That fat man wasn't standing back up with 5 cops on his back.  The choke hold was banned and wasn't necessary. 

he wasn't getting away.  his fat ass was slow and weak and was already flat on ground.  They were zip tying him.  The choke hold was a PUNISHMENT, not a tactic for control.  He was choked not to save lives or stop an out-of-control situation.  The cop was pissed at this fat a-hole selling smokes and trying to walk away from a cop's order, and wanted him to feel some pain.


THAT Is the problem.   When cops decide they want to get a little extra in - and in some cases, the person getting an extra choke, kick, shove,  just happens to have health problems.   Death from chokehold WAS a foreseeable outcome - WHICH IS WHY IT WAS BANNED.


I dont get it... Excusing a deadly move because "Oh, he should have listened..."   Fuck that.  Cop used a deadly move on a man already getting zip tied on the concrete who posed no threat to anyone.  You give cops that kinda power, don't be surprised when cops are choking YOU because you took too long to pull over becuase you didn't see them behind you.  Dont give them that permission to use deadly moves when not needed, as punishment.

It's not about him getting away you dumb liberal turd. It's about him taking advantage of a hesitation and doing damage. Cop did nothing wrong... Don't fucking break the law, and if you do, don't resist arrest. It's not that hard.

[240 is Back]

It's not about him getting away you dumb liberal turd. It's about him taking advantage of a hesitation and doing damage. Cop did nothing wrong... Don't fucking break the law, and if you do, don't resist arrest. It's not that hard.

Yes, the cop DID something wrong.  He used an illegal move. 

I think we have a disconnect here on simple facts of the case.  The cop used a move that was banned.  This isn't something to be debated.  He did it.  We have clear video of it. 

I don't think cop belongs in jail.  I don't think the fat guy's family deserves a cent.  I do know the cop committed an action that was against NYPD policy.   There's video. 

[240 is Back]

It's not about him getting away you dumb liberal turd. It's about him taking advantage of a hesitation and doing damage. Cop did nothing wrong... Don't fucking break the law, and if you do, don't resist arrest. It's not that hard.

there are plenty of LEGAL actions for the cop to take, when a person resists, from takedowns to taser to shooting them.

But chokehold is NOT one of these actions.  Period.  The cop broke NYPD policy, and whether or not it contibuted to this death doesnt matter.   He broke the rules. 

It's not "dumb liberal turd" to wish for cops to follow the cop rules, is it?

[Archer77]

Was it a choke hold or a submission hold?   Was it his blood being cut off that triggered his heart issue? Does it matter? What is Garners part in this? Did Garner have a right to resist and object to the police presence?  What he was doing was illegal and he kept doing it after several run-ins with the cops.  


The encounter between Mr. Garner and plainclothes officers, from the 120th Precinct, began after the officers accused Mr. Garner of illegally selling cigarettes, an accusation he was familiar with. He had been arrested more than 30 times, often accused of selling loose cigarettes bought outside the state, a common hustle designed to avoid state and city tobacco taxes. In March and again in May, he was arrested on charges of illegally selling cigarettes on the sidewalk.


Community members gathered to pray in the Tompkinsville neighborhood where Mr. Garner died. Credit Robert Stolarik for The New York Times
For years, Mr. Garner chafed at the scrutiny by the police, which he considered harassment. In 2007, he filed a handwritten complaint in federal court accusing a police officer of conducting a cavity search of him on the street, “digging his fingers in my rectum in the middle of the street” while people passed by.

More recently, Mr. Garner told lawyers at Legal Aid that he intended to take all the cases against him to trial. “He was adamant he wouldn’t plead guilty to anything,” said Christopher Pisciotta, the lawyer in charge of the Staten Island office of Legal Aid.

Despite all the scrutiny from the police, most days Mr. Garner, a father of six, would stand on Bay Street, in the Tompkinsville neighborhood, his ankles visibly swollen, hawking loose Lucky cigarettes for 50 cents each.

On Thursday, when officers confronted him nearby and accused him of selling tobacco to a man in a red shirt, Mr. Garner reacted with exasperation, suggesting he was not going to cooperate. “I’m tired of it,” he said. “This stops today.”

“I didn’t do nothing,” Mr. Garner tells an officer. “Every time you see me, you want to harass me, you want to stop me.”

At one point he has his hands on his hips; at other points he is gesturing energetically. “Please just leave me alone,” he says. In the video, Mr. Garner can be seen crawling forward on the ground as an officer hangs on with his arm around Mr. Garner’s neck. Other officers surround Mr. Garner.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/nyregion/staten-island-man-dies-after-he-is-put-in-chokehold-during-arrest.html?_r=0

[Deacon Jeschin]

Where is the outrage. 





http://www.officer.com/news/12004432/nj-police-officer-dies-after-heart-attack


N.J. Police Officer Dies After Heart Attack
Officer.com News On Sep 17, 2014

The Newark, N.J. Police Department is mourning the death of a veteran officer who suffered a fatal heart attack while on duty Tuesday.

Officer Reinaldo Arocha Jr. went into cardiac arrest around 7:15 a.m. while working his usual post in the Fourth Precinct, according to The Star-Ledger.

The local donut shops and pizza parlors are outraged due to the knockoff in business since this guy dropped.

[Thick Nick]

Yes, the cop DID something wrong.  He used an illegal move. 

I think we have a disconnect here on simple facts of the case.  The cop used a move that was banned.  This isn't something to be debated.  He did it.  We have clear video of it. 

I don't think cop belongs in jail.  I don't think the fat guy's family deserves a cent.  I do know the cop committed an action that was against NYPD policy.   There's video. 

So enlighten us on what you prefer? Them to try and talk and grab him until he breaks one of thier faces first? Then is it ok to fight back? I never said it wasn't banned. I said it was right. FUCK THIS GUY HE RESISTED. Take him down hard before he do s damage first... Which is where this goes if you don't take him down.


Why don't you just say what you really want to say... You would rather see this guy break some cops face because he hesitated rather then take these animals out before they can do real damage.

Serious question... If the Mike Brown had charged the cop and he DIDNT shoot... What did you think he was gonna do? Kiss him? How about when he went for the gun? Trying to tickle him?

That's all this is about... You liberal idiots would be fine if this broke some cops face because they were trying to talk him down... Not a fucking word would be said. If say otherwise you are a liar.

[Archer77]

 Garner’s friends, he “had several health issues: diabetes, sleep apnea, and asthma so severe that he had to quit his job as a horticulturist for the city’s parks department. He wheezed when he talked and could not walk a block without resting, they said.”

Sounds to me like the guy was a bomb about to explode. 



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/19/nyregion/staten-island-man-dies-after-he-is-put-in-chokehold-during-arrest.html?_r=0

[Agnostic007]

well it would be nice if when cops are caught going against procedure and using an illegal tactic that has been banned, which then causes the death of a suspect who was engaged in a non-violent crime, and such incident is caught on VIDEO TAPE, that the expectation would be that the cop is indicted and fired...I think thats reasonable

I didn't watch the video dozens of times. I didn't hear from expert witnesses nor did I hear from witnesses on the scene. I don't know the exact criteria for indicting for murder or manslaughter in this case. But the Grand Jury, made up of people of the community did hear and see all of it and were instructed as to the guidelines.  
My opinion is that whatever the initial law violation was, a person is required by law to obey the instructions/orders of a peace officer. When they don't, when they actively resist, the original law violation becomes irrelevant at that point and the issue now is overcoming the resistance and is the force used justified. That is likely what the Grand Jury focused on as well.
What I observed on the available video was an officer taking the subject to the ground by controlling the head. For a short time he appears to have his arm around the guys neck. He releases that hold in less than 8 seconds and at that point the person is still concious and talking. That it caused his death is very unlikely. I've been in that position of recieving a choke like that dozens of times and obviously it didn't kill me. To say that was the cause of his death, I don't believe it and neither did the Grand Jury apparently.    
The officer should be disciplined for applying the choke, but the reality is there isn't a cop that has spent any amount of time on the street who hasn't had his arm in that position for a brief time trying to gain control of a resisting subject.  Maybe not as aggressively applied but people who are in the position of taking people into custody who don't want to be in custody will have some understanding of how that could happen without evil intentions. He may be terminated, he may not. I can see it going either way.
Taking resisting people into custody is never a pretty thing. It doesn't look like it does in the movies. It's not always as easy as it looks. Even the best situations where everyone is doing everything right, can look on video like an outright war. I can understand how it can look to people who are seeing it on a rare ocassion.
Had the officer not put his arm around the guys neck, I believe he would have died anyway. The exertion of the event was too much for the guy due to his physical condition and health issues. I wish he had just followed their instructions and not resisted. It's unfortunate that it ended that way.    

 

[Agnostic007]

This x 100.

In a perfect world with perfect cops, the prefect amount of force would always be used to subdue a perp.
Cops are human and nobody should go out of there way to ignore or disrespect the officer's request.

In this case the video makes it clear, that the large man fails to comply with the cops demands.
If the cop turns out to be wrong, you take it up with his superior and file a formal complaint or sue.

The sad reality is, street people don't file suits or make formal complaints to officials.
Their norm is to settle things right there and then via verbal or physical confrontation.
The problem with THAT, is, it isn't how our legal system was meant to work.

FYI, big time organized crime, like the infamous mafia or corrupt officials knew how to work the system.
It's known as bribes and kick backs so the cops look the other way or ignore you.
Yes, the unauthorized selling of ciggs law is pretty dumb, but wtf.
What incentive does the cop have for ignoring him and letting him break this goofy law? NOTHING but grief and risk  losing his job.

Agreed

[240 is Back]

So enlighten us on what you prefer? Them to try and talk and grab him until he breaks one of thier faces first? Then is it ok to fight back? I never said it wasn't banned. I said it was right. FUCK THIS GUY HE RESISTED. Take him down hard before he do s damage first... Which is where this goes if you don't take him down.

Why don't you just say what you really want to say... You would rather see this guy break some cops face because he hesitated rather then take these animals out before they can do real damage.

Serious question... If the Mike Brown had charged the cop and he DIDNT shoot... What did you think he was gonna do? Kiss him? How about when he went for the gun? Trying to tickle him?

That's all this is about... You liberal idiots would be fine if this broke some cops face because they were trying to talk him down... Not a fucking word would be said. If say otherwise you are a liar.

I'd be fine if the cops tasered the shit out of this disobedient fat fck.   Because the NYPD has decided tasing is LEGAL.  The taser has a limit number of VARIABLES.  They can record the blasts, they know the results on the body, it's a very CONSISTENT charge, and the outcome is predictable.

Now, a choke hold is NOT consistent.  There are TOO MANY VARIABLES for it to be used as a safe option by the NYPD.  Smarter people that us have decided that.  Very hard to execute, exposes the cop in a big way, very easy to do incorrectly.  Too many variables for it to be safe.  So the NYPD brains decided to ban it.


I think you're under the impression it was either "talk him down" or "choke hold him".  No, there were plenty of options to get this disobedient scumbag on the ground, cuffed, and in the car.

Choke hold isn't one of these options.  Period.

[240 is Back]

You liberal idiots

I'm a liberal idiot because I want the cops to follow cop rules and use approved tactics against citizens?

I'm fine with them tazing or whatever other means that are legal.  choke hold is not.  Period. 

Liberal idiocy = wanting police to follow the fcking NYPD rules? 

[_aj_]

I'm a liberal idiot because I want the cops to follow cop rules and use approved tactics against citizens?

I'm fine with them tazing or whatever other means that are legal.  choke hold is not.  Period. 

Liberal idiocy = wanting police to follow the fcking NYPD rules? 

Nobody has EVER called me "liberal" on anything. Until now.

[Archer77]

I'm a liberal idiot because I want the cops to follow cop rules and use approved tactics against citizens?

I'm fine with them tazing or whatever other means that are legal.  choke hold is not.  Period.  

Liberal idiocy = wanting police to follow the fcking NYPD rules?  

Wanting cops to follow the rules is far from a liberal thing.   What your evidence for a choke hold and not a submission hold?

A chokehold is defined by the NYPD as “any pressure to the throat or windpipe, which may prevent or hinder breathing or reduce intake of air.”
 
Against
Garner did not die of asphyxiation.

He was talking during the incident.

The preliminary autopsy showed no damage to Garner’s windpipe or neck bones.


Maybe it wasn't the hold that killed him but the cops piled on him.

The autopsy from the medical examiner attributed his death “Compression of neck, compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police.” But the autopsy further noted that Garner died thanks to acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity, and heart disease.

[240 is Back]

Wanting cops to follow the rules is far from a liberal thing.   What your evidence for a choke hold and not a submission hold?

A choke hold is a form of a submission hold.

lol this is basic MMA 101 here.  As getbiggers, we're all advanced MMA fighters and should know this. 

[Archer77]

A choke hold is a form of a submission hold.

lol this is basic MMA 101 here.  As getbiggers, we're all advanced MMA fighters and should know this.  

You're wrong.  A choke hold cuts off the air flow by placing pressure on the throat.  A submission hold cuts off the blood flow at the jugular and arteries of the neck

Looks like you flunked MMA 101

[Nails]

so he was selling single cigs on the street on cigs he already bought at the store and paid the taxes on 

is this routine in new york    Do Pigs go around the city looking for people selling used toasters, child car seats, fish tanks, ect at  yard sales and choke them out for selling their used shit and not getting the sales tax on it again 

[Thick Nick]

I'd be fine if the cops tasered the shit out of this disobedient fat fck.   Because the NYPD has decided tasing is LEGAL.  The taser has a limit number of VARIABLES.  They can record the blasts, they know the results on the body, it's a very CONSISTENT charge, and the outcome is predictable.

Now, a choke hold is NOT consistent.  There are TOO MANY VARIABLES for it to be used as a safe option by the NYPD.  Smarter people that us have decided that.  Very hard to execute, exposes the cop in a big way, very easy to do incorrectly.  Too many variables for it to be safe.  So the NYPD brains decided to ban it.


I think you're under the impression it was either "talk him down" or "choke hold him".  No, there were plenty of options to get this disobedient scumbag on the ground, cuffed, and in the car.

Choke hold isn't one of these options.  Period.

So you are saying if he died the same way but from being tased no one protest? Seriously? That's your argument? You are a lying fuck or just plain dumb... Still white cops.. Still "unarmed" black guy. Safe fucking thing happens just because.

Really? THAT is your argument? You are gonna stick with that?

[240 is Back]

You're wrong.  A choke hold cuts off the air flow by placing pressure on the throat.  A submission hold cuts off the blood flow at the jugular and arteries of the neck

Looks like you flunked MMA 101

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokehold
Choke holds are a form of submission hold.  

And since ALL forms of submission holds are banned by NYPD, I'm not sure what you're saying here.