Concealed carry questions (aj)

[_aj_]

Ok, I'm still misunderstanding, last try: I'm ignoring the gun in my holster for said confrontation. Done. Even then, you're saying, I still cannot react. Anything less than a lethal situation - even though I have no intention of reaching for, using, or even acknowledging the gun's existence - I'm forced to tuck tail?

Dude pushes me, slaps my chick, throws drink, spits - but no intention of killing - I suck it up and split, right. Gun on my hip means I can't throw a punch. Damn. Thank God I could never get a CCW.

Apologize, I'm slow as fuck, but this interests me.

Doesn't matter. Here's a scenario: you're carrying, but a guy is being a real dick and you think, "I can kick his ass and I will never touch my gun". As soon as you get into it, though, you realize that the guy is better than you thought and you are about to get KTFO. What do you do? Pull your gun? That's illegal escalation to deadly force because you had the opportunity to escape, but allowed the fight to happen. Get KTFO and possibly lose your gun? Not good either. There's a felony there too.

Your only legal option is to avoid or de-escalate.

Now, if you are pearl-harbored and surprise attacked, you can (in some jurisdictions) "brandish" the weapon to get them to stop. However, the situation then becomes lethal, with all the laws attendant. You'd also best be prepared to use it or lose it.

Florida's SYG law is a notable exception as it has provisions for "peaceable movement" or something like that. It basically states that if someone is feloniously keeping you from moving forward in a public way, you can respond with deadly force. It was specific language added for those that didn't feel that the law abiding should be forced to retreat from a felony. To my knowledge, it hasn't been tested in court.

In general, American gun owners and the folks that choose to legally carry are the most sober and judicious citizens that our country has. To a man, they usually have more firearms training time than the average cop, and are certainly more level-headed.

[Teutonic Knight]

Hey sucker, you can find me on Bondi beach anytime today.

Dream on 

Must be shit cold in yours pueblo 

[SamoanIrishman]

I think i am MORE cautious because I have a gun with me.   If shit goes sideways and I punch, run,whatever, chances are everyone is going home alive that night.

If I ever get out of my car and willingly step INTO a situation where a fight/ gun battle/ etc is obviously about to happen - then I have to stand in court one day and explain why I was so fcking stupid to do so.   I have to look at the jury and say "umm, for realz tho, I had no idea stepping out into that group of people was a bad idea" and lie.  And people see thru liars.

I would MUCH rather look the jury in the eye and say "dudes, I did EVERYTHING i could go avoid a confrontation and shooting - I moved my car, I apologized, I took 14 steps backwards til I hit the wall, I didn't respond to his 3 shoves, I yelled for help, I begged the dude to step, I deflected 4 punched and THEN I had to sadly use my weapon."

That's a lot better than "I wasn't worried, but he came at me, so I stood my ground".   Dudes with that attitude make me sick.    They invite the fight.  A jury will see my ass was VERY much avoiding a shooting.  Cause like other getbiggers said, this shit isn't comic book, movie stuff.  Shootings are real-life with real ramifications.  People that carry have a HUGE burden to back down, avoid fights, apologize, and run if possible.   Their ego might be a little butthurt, but everyone goes home and they're not having nightmares of a shoot from a jail cell. 

Just walk away from that shit.  Run away from it!   If/when you have to look a jury in the eye, you will have honesty on your side because, by golly, you are NOT one of those trigger-happy a-holes out to play sheriff. 

Well said. Just because I carry a gun doesn't mean I'm going to play hero if I was in a place of business getting robbed ...especially if I have my family with me. My main concern is getting them to cover and keeping an eye on the guy until he leaves... plus you don't know who else in there might be with him and is blending in as a non threat.

Intent comes into play. If he just wants money and is in a hurry to leave, businesses are insured, let him get it and leave. Now if he start executing people and is making his way to where we are, I can at least step away from my family and direct his attention to me and put him down before he kills more.

Its all about the situation, weapon being used, number of bad guys, their intent, surroundings, if I'm alone or with my family or my buddies who also carry etc...

Most important is surroundings as you have to be aware of what is past your target. Ultimately you are responsible for where your bullet ends up and the last thing you want is to shoot a guy robbing you at knifepoint in a crowd and your bullet misses or over penetrates and hits the 6yr old behind him.

Lots of common sense and scenario training is critical in my opinion. For example if there is already a gun pointed at you, don't try and go for your gun. These former SEALS teach classes with real world scenarios... every state has a company that does this type of training.

Here is one of their vids. They are called First Person Defender

[240 is Back]

i used to watch lenny mcgilll "move, shoot, live".   great video for tactics.  My bro used the exact movement when he was under attack by armed gunmen.  left forearm covers brain and heart.  right arm shoots.  Get smaller, move backwards against shooter's body.  It was over quickly but that move caused shooter to have to adjust his direct aim when landing, thus my brother could put a bullet in his belly first.   My bro actually fired something like 5 rounds - perfect horizontal stream, and jumped thru the door to shoot the other punk ass.   Luckily, punkkass #2 decided to turn tail and run.  Broke his own arm hitting the door so fast lol.

[Bernie King]

You see, the standard reference that most experts use regarding gun-fighting distance is the "FBI's stats" for police shootings.

When you look at the factors involved in this, you realize that police are often called to the scene of "a crime in progress" and are able to keep their distance and carefully approach an attacker with their weapon drawn.
But that's NOT how a real attack YOU will encounter takes place!

Civilian attacks mostly happen because of one of two events:
Escalated Arguments and Ambushes
And neither of these attacks typically happen in close range, right?

I mean, do you really think some meth-crazed street vermin is going to yell across the street, "Hey man! Give me your wallet!"

Nope. Not a chance!

They're going to be right up in your face where you can see their glossy eyes before you even know what's going on.

That puts you at only one or two arm-lengths away at most.

Now, if the standard rule is that an attacker can close the distance of 21 feet in just 1.5 seconds...

... how much time do you think you have to get to your gun if he's only 5-8 FEET away?

This is why all that range training where your happy paper target hangs gleefully 15 yards (40 ft.) down range is NOT going to do all that much for preparing you for a real attack.

Real gunfights happen less than 9 feet away!

That means that the vast majority of your firearms training should be based on "close combat shooting" tactics - NOT "target practice" (at least not if you want to survive).

So be honest...

... are you REALLY devoting most of your training time to the dynamics you can expect when an ambushing attacker is just an arm's length away from slicing you to ribbons?

My guess is probably not, right?

You're not alone... and in fact, even most "combat gurus" are training with unrealistic methods.

What you really need is a tactical gun-fighting "formula" specifically designed for the worst case scenario where you're attacked with no warning... no "distance"... and have to fight for your life.
And that is where I come into the picture. PM me for more details.

[_aj_]

You see, the standard reference that most experts use regarding gun-fighting distance is the "FBI's stats" for police shootings.

When you look at the factors involved in this, you realize that police are often called to the scene of "a crime in progress" and are able to keep their distance and carefully approach an attacker with their weapon drawn.
But that's NOT how a real attack YOU will encounter takes place!

Civilian attacks mostly happen because of one of two events:
Escalated Arguments and Ambushes
And neither of these attacks typically happen in close range, right?

I mean, do you really think some meth-crazed street vermin is going to yell across the street, "Hey man! Give me your wallet!"

Nope. Not a chance!

They're going to be right up in your face where you can see their glossy eyes before you even know what's going on.

That puts you at only one or two arm-lengths away at most.

Now, if the standard rule is that an attacker can close the distance of 21 feet in just 1.5 seconds...

... how much time do you think you have to get to your gun if he's only 5-8 FEET away?

This is why all that range training where your happy paper target hangs gleefully 15 yards (40 ft.) down range is NOT going to do all that much for preparing you for a real attack.

Real gunfights happen less than 9 feet away!

That means that the vast majority of your firearms training should be based on "close combat shooting" tactics - NOT "target practice" (at least not if you want to survive).

So be honest...

... are you REALLY devoting most of your training time to the dynamics you can expect when an ambushing attacker is just an arm's length away from slicing you to ribbons?

My guess is probably not, right?

You're not alone... and in fact, even most "combat gurus" are training with unrealistic methods.

What you really need is a tactical gun-fighting "formula" specifically designed for the worst case scenario where you're attacked with no warning... no "distance"... and have to fight for your life.
And that is where I come into the picture. PM me for more details.

Perhaps, "Bernie", you have not heard of The Way of Gun Kata...

[240 is Back]

I mean, do you really think some meth-crazed street vermin is going to yell across the street, "Hey man! Give me your wallet!"
Nope. Not a chance!
They're going to be right up in your face where you can see their glossy eyes before you even know what's going on.
That puts you at only one or two arm-lengths away at most.
Now, if the standard rule is that an attacker can close the distance of 21 feet in just 1.5 seconds...
... how much time do you think you have to get to your gun if he's only 5-8 FEET away?

Half of "combat gunfighting" is doing everything you can to study/see/judge everyone within 50 to 100 feet as potential threats.  When I pull into a gas station, I scan to see if there are 4 shady dudes standing around pump #1... then I'm sure to use pump #10 instead of pump #3.   Or if I'm in a parking lot and I see shady dude looking odd (no cart, no kids, just loitering) I am already on defensive watching his hips and hands. 

[Archer77]

Half of "combat gunfighting" is doing everything you can to study/see/judge everyone within 50 to 100 feet as potential threats.  When I pull into a gas station, I scan to see if there are 4 shady dudes standing around pump #1... then I'm sure to use pump #10 instead of pump #3.   Or if I'm in a parking lot and I see shady dude looking odd (no cart, no kids, just loitering) I am already on defensive watching his hips and hands. 

You have no clue. You also sound extremely paranoid.  I can imagine the same thoughts going through zimmerpigs mind. You've watched to many movies.

[_aj_]

You have no clue. You also sound extremely paranoid.  I can imagine the same thoughts going through zimmerpigs mind. You've watched to many movies.

It's called "living in Florida!"

No shit, I was more paranoid than you could imagine when I lived down there. I worked in Miami and frequently had to stay late. I carried openly everyday at the office. It gets fucking tiring as hell, but when another story comes out about a tourist that got his face shot off for asking directions, you double down on paranoid.

I will admit that since moving to NH, my guard has been slowing falling and I occasionally catch myself walking down the street in a fog or texting on my phone; two things that I would NEVER do in FL. I comfort myself thinking that I could get back to "condition orange" quickly if necessary.

[HTexan]

I like to have it when I travel but I'm no crazy red neck LOL

In Texas you can travel, and also drive to the range, without a license.