Author Topic: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.  (Read 43437 times)

mr.turbo

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #150 on: March 24, 2015, 01:51:08 AM »
I have seen two lines of equipment that increase the load in the eccentric part of the movement. The best were the electronic machines built by

Life Fitness way back in 1991. You did one test rep and it determined what resistance you needed to complete only 12 reps. You could increase

the eccentric resistance to 125% of the concentric load. The best circuit ever for gyms but sadly discontinued.


http://www.ibi-fitness.com/whatis.html


interesting to imagine a mechanism that would do the same thing without the electronics.
"

FitnessFrenzy

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #151 on: March 24, 2015, 02:01:05 AM »

FitnessFrenzy

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #152 on: March 24, 2015, 02:38:07 AM »
very fine artwork  :)

made by ironmeister  :)

Teutonic Knight

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #153 on: March 24, 2015, 02:43:59 AM »
made by ironmeister  :)

That guy Van Gock (or Glock) would be jealous of this masterpiece  8)

DroppingPlates

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #154 on: March 24, 2015, 03:14:45 AM »
We all assume that putting mechanical tension on a muscle if done intensely enough and for long enough will cause hypertrophy. The next day that muscle is usually quite sore which indicates damage and hence possible growth.

Yesterday I had to shift two heavy wardrobes. Getting them into my ute was the easy part. Delivering them to my daughter's pad was a challenge. It was a long walk and the tension from the stretch was severe.

We did two trips and at the end it felt like a biceps workout. Today my biceps are quite sore. I had an arm workout three days ago so this must have been more intense.

It appears that it doesn't matter how we put mechanical tension on a muscle whether stretching or doing training. Of course, I remember the studies done on the chickens where a weight was attached to one wing.

The load was increased over a time and the hypertrophy in the weighted wing was impressive. Well, the only thing is stretching a muscle isn't exactly pleasant or fun. But I suppose if you held the weight in a stretched

position in curls, for example, that would help increase the amount of mechanical tension.


Why not submit this to PubMed?

Tapeworm

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #155 on: March 24, 2015, 06:57:54 AM »
C'mon, no Burr fans here?

It's the only podcast I listen to and it was you who posted the first of him I'd seen.  So thanks and go fuck ya self.

SF1900

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #156 on: March 24, 2015, 07:23:52 AM »
Why not submit this to PubMed?

Because it would get utterly destroyed.
X

DroppingPlates

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #157 on: March 24, 2015, 10:27:36 AM »
Because it would get utterly destroyed.

It will unbore the scientific community :D

io856

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #158 on: March 30, 2015, 08:20:28 PM »
bahaahhahaahaha just had a look on that realgym website




chaos

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #159 on: March 30, 2015, 08:40:41 PM »
bahaahhahaahaha just had a look on that realgym website

why the fuck did basile put this abomination of a photo on there


Kevin Levrone would be jealous.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Disgusted

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #160 on: March 31, 2015, 03:20:48 AM »
All stabilizer muscles are in isometric contraction mode to stabilize any lift. Stretching is relaxing your muscles. If you contract any of your muscles much in stretching, then you are doing some serious damage to your tendons and ligaments. So, yeah, it matters what you call it.

How is stretching a muscle relaxing it?

d0nny2600

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #161 on: March 31, 2015, 03:22:13 AM »
bahaahhahaahaha just had a look on that realgym website

why the fuck did basile put this abomination of a photo on there


Nice panties

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #162 on: March 31, 2015, 03:59:58 AM »
bahaahhahaahaha just had a look on that realgym website

why the fuck did basile put this abomination of a photo on there



I never put my photo up in any of my gyms. My family did that. Natural in the photo, too, but off season by months.

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #163 on: March 31, 2015, 06:44:29 AM »
Okay, I requested that this thread was moved to this forum. Anyone interested can post here.


We hope the moderators will remove all the personal attacks and non-topic posts.

Erik C

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #164 on: March 31, 2015, 08:01:40 AM »
How is stretching a muscle relaxing it?

I meant to say that stretching should only be gently relaxing a muscle, not contracting a muscle. Relaxing into the stretch, doesn't elongate tendons and ligaments.

chaos

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #165 on: March 31, 2015, 08:26:05 AM »
Okay, I requested that this thread was moved to this forum. Anyone interested can post here.


We hope the moderators will remove all the personal attacks and non-topic posts.

I'm not going through the previous 7 pages but from this point forward the thread will be moderated. If you have a specific concern you can PM me.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #166 on: April 03, 2015, 09:37:43 PM »
Thanks, Chaos, well done.

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #167 on: April 03, 2015, 10:10:27 PM »
interesting to imagine a mechanism that would do the same thing without the electronics.

Here are some:   

http://www.x-force.se/index.php/products

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/fch.html
[/b]

I have tried two X-Force machines and found them lacking. You don't always get a smooth transition

when the weight stack returns to the vertical position to effectively increase the resistance for the eccentric phase.

These machines are rather big and sadly, not so user friendly. Good idea, though.

Be interesting to see Scott Naidus's machines. A different way to change the resistance and might be a better solution.

pellius

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #168 on: April 04, 2015, 02:22:41 AM »
Vince, are you familiar with the Keiser air pressure machines? I used them when I was living in So Ca and loved them. Even if you blasted out fast reps there was no momentum. Also, you could provide you own eccentric resistance. Like with the chest press after you pushed out you could press down on the pedals at your feet (right to increase pressure, left to decrease pressure) to increase resistance as you lowered it. Also, as the set wears on and you can't complete another full rep with the current resistance you could again push on the pedal to lessen the air pressure and simulate forced reps.

It had a different feel to it and seemed much easier on the joints.

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #169 on: April 05, 2015, 03:30:26 AM »
Vince, are you familiar with the Keiser air pressure machines? I used them when I was living in So Ca and loved them. Even if you blasted out fast reps there was no momentum. Also, you could provide you own eccentric resistance. Like with the chest press after you pushed out you could press down on the pedals at your feet (right to increase pressure, left to decrease pressure) to increase resistance as you lowered it. Also, as the set wears on and you can't complete another full rep with the current resistance you could again push on the pedal to lessen the air pressure and simulate forced reps.

It had a different feel to it and seemed much easier on the joints.

Hi Pellius. Yes, I trained on some Keiser pneumatic machines at Golds Gym, Venice, back in 1991. What I found was that they tended to hurt the joints when you increased the load heaps. On lighter resistances they felt okay.

There was one exception, the seated toe extender for the calves. The extra eccentric load was great and there was no pain in the ankles. This could be one of the best calf machines ever made. Trouble is you need a compressor and they can be noisy. Well, you put them in a room that is insulated. The Kaiser chromed machines are probably the best finished exercise machines ever.

DroppingPlates

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #170 on: April 05, 2015, 04:24:48 AM »
Here are some:   

http://www.x-force.se/index.php/products

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/9901/fch.html
[/b]

I have tried two X-Force machines and found them lacking. You don't always get a smooth transition

when the weight stack returns to the vertical position to effectively increase the resistance for the eccentric phase.

These machines are rather big and sadly, not so user friendly. Good idea, though.

Be interesting to see Scott Naidus's machines. A different way to change the resistance and might be a better solution.

I remember this Fibo vid, where these machines (same brand I guess) are demonstrated. I understand that a muscle is much stronger in it's eccentric than in it's concentric phase, so it's interesting to see that a manufacturer tries to implement this principle in his line (AFAIK Nautilus was the first one with their blue 'monsters') The question however is, will the general public embrace machines like these? I don't think so. Based on my observations, most machine training people are damn lazy. Another concern is the demonstrated rep speed; the majority of the gym goers lack the right mindset to train this slow (not saying that it isn't effective).


pellius

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #171 on: April 05, 2015, 05:46:24 AM »
Hi Pellius. Yes, I trained on some Keiser pneumatic machines at Golds Gym, Venice, back in 1991. What I found was that they tended to hurt the joints when you increased the load heaps. On lighter resistances they felt okay.

There was one exception, the seated toe extender for the calves. The extra eccentric load was great and there was no pain in the ankles. This could be one of the best calf machines ever made. Trouble is you need a compressor and they can be noisy. Well, you put them in a room that is insulated. The Kaiser chromed machines are probably the best finished exercise machines ever.



Vince! I started at Golds in 1991! Shit we could have been at the gym at the same time. I went around mid morning. The only "famous" guy I knew there when I first started was Don Ross because of a mutual friend, Benny Podda.
Don was great as he would always take the time to talk with me despite always having people around him B.S-ing. He would also introduce me to some of the big shots bodybuilders at the time but the only one I really wanted to meet was Mike Mentzer. What a thrill it was for me. I was like a giddy school girl at a Justin Brieber concert. I was a little taken aback by Mentzer's voice. Not what I imagine at all. Mike always made it a point to call me by my name when we ran into each other. He was always with a client and I had to hurry because I was going to UCLA at the time which was on the way to Gold's from where I lived in Redondo Beach. I always wanted to catch him when he was free and talk with him. I think we would have gotten along famously as we had so much in common outside of bbing. I originally was a Philosophy major before switching to Mathematics so I was familiar with Ayn Rand and Nietsche whom Mike use to quote a lot during is competitive years. Plus, there was a lot of questions and doubts I had about his and Jones training system even though I thought they were basically sound. I mean, if intensity should be maximize and duration minimized why limit yourself to one set? Why not just one super intense rep? Why not take a weight that exceeds your one rep max and do one super intense forced rep with a spotter(s) along with a super slow negative rep and leave it at there?

Anyway, good times then. I remember thinking Flex was the most perfectly built human being and Paul Dillet the most freakiest bodybuilder I've ever seen. Flex use to train with Cormier and one or two other advance bodybuilders. They were just coming up then. I remember Lou going through his transformation where every time I went to train he looked 10 pounds bigger.

Maybe that was you hogging the curling machine I was waiting for. I was always doing super sets and hated when a machine I wanted to use was taken. Gold's also had the Keiser equipment back then. I don't see any gyms having them anymore. Funny that you felt they were hard on the joints. For me it was the opposite. They also had that alternate Nautilus lat machine that you never see anymore. It was a different angle from the pullover and stimulated the behind the neck pull down. The pads were right by your ears and you pushed down and back with your elbows while your arms were kept in the double bicep position while you were midway and drove your elbows to the side of your waist. Pure back and full range of motion.

Jones was a genius and started the revolution as everyone tried to copy him.

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #172 on: April 06, 2015, 01:48:56 AM »
About whether the Keiser machines are hard on the joints or not. Let me diverge a bit and talk about an innovative leg press. Cybex made an horizontal leg press and it was popular with lots of people. One day I had a go on it and worked up to a reasonable resistance. The machine felt smooth and great during the warmup with low resistance. As the resistance increased the movement just didn't feel right. It might have been the position of the feet which was quite high relative to the back. Using a weight I could just manage 10 reps on I knew that this wasn't designed properly. That test became a bench mark for me and I always loaded the machines I was trying via a pyramid. Sure enough most machines failed the heavy resistance test. Another promising machine was the Cybex seated toe extension. It, too, failed feeling right when maximum resistance was used. When I looked at the mechanics of it I could see it needed an adjustment to the length from the pivot point to the balls of the feet. What was comfortable and just right would be possible for everyone then. I never did build one of those machines but the idea was solid.

So I loaded up the Keiser machines. At heavy resistance my joints were not happy. So I didn't use them again....except for the seated calf machine. That was a great machine even at heavy resistance and great because the eccentric part of the movement would be increased over the concentric part. One of the best calf machines I have used.

Getting back to Golds Gym at Venice...The Mecca! I was there in April 1991 for two weeks. I stayed with Ray Mentzer at his place. When he lived at my place in Sydney he was with his partner, Kathy and their daughter, Dagny. She was named after the heroine in "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand. I read that book way back in 1961. That was heavy going but I guess I looked for a superwoman like that but never found any. I introduced Ray to Pam who he eventually married and they lived in Torrance but didn't have any children together.

I agree that Arthur Jones was the most intelligent person to ever get involved in the Iron Game. I spoke with him for an hour in 1995 after receiving a patent for my biceps-supinator machine. I sure enjoyed that conversation. We got along like a house on fire. What a pity we didn't record it.

Ray introduced me to Mike after I said I would like to meet him. I gave him an unpublished article I wrote on the judging at the 1980 Olympia contest in Sydney. I wonder if he destroyed that article? Anyway, we spoke for about an hour but neither learned anything from the other. I guess I expected more. I doubt he accepted me as an authority in anything, either!

Let us talk about intensity that Arthur referred to. What a shame he wasn't correct about hypertrophy. I think intensity training might be linked more to strength and that was an objective because he sold a lot of his machines to colleges and high schools. We all saw how huge Sergio Oliva got after Arthur trained him for a month or so back in 1991. That was the biggest that Sergio ever got. He discontinued using Nautilus machines and methods because the gym he used in Chicago didn't have a line of Nautilus machines which was a pity. Imagine how great Sergio might have become with two years training like that? Arthur trained Sergio and Casey slightly differently from what he advocated. For legs he would get them to do a quick warm up then do leg presses to failure with a heavy resistance for 25 to 30 reps. With no rest they would go to the leg extension machine and do 20 reps. Then without resting do some squats with a heavy resistance for 15 reps. The first time Sergio followed Casey in this routine he couldn't get up in the squat after descending with something over 400 pounds. Once your body got used to this super tri-set you rested then repeated the sequence.

From my analysis of Arthur's theory on hypertrophy I concluded he was mistaken about intensity. It was a factor but it was not sufficient to continuously trigger hypertrophy in advanced trainees. His methods might work for a while but stop within a month or two. That is a shame because we all liked the idea of briefer training and more effective routines. I blame Jones for my not reaching my maximum muscular size because I didn't do enough volume. I combined what Arthur recommended with what I distilled from Larry Scott. Larry advocated pumping the muscles with brutal quick sets. Up and down the rack for biceps and shoulders. Few of those who tried Larry's routines stayed with them. The main problem was not having access to a row of dumbbells in the gym. If the gym was busy you couldn't hog 10 pairs of dumbbells for yourself. Effective but basically impractical during the busy hours at any gym. My method in those days was to see how few sets I would have to do, including warm up sets, to obtain a maximum pump. We believed John Grimek when he said he didn't grown after doing 100 sets of standing presses. Thus, once you pumped your arms bigger than ever you stopped because it was felt further exercise was ineffective. For me that point was reached after 7 sets. I would stop. What a shame because I was almost there. Just another 5 sets or so would have done the job.

What was it besides intensity that made the muscles grow? I am talking about serious bodybuilders who have at least 16 inch arms. The answer is quite simple, really, but easy to overlook. You can reduce all training protocols to time under tension. The intensity part is involved with how much resistance you are using. I think scientists concluded that you needed to lift a resistance that was 75 to 80 percent of a one rep maximum. If you could do one rep with 200 pounds in the bench press that means you would have to do 150 to 160 pounds in your routine to grow. When it comes to measuring time under tension how do we do that? Well, anecdotal reports from countless people over decades all believed that the last rep or two were the ones that made you grow. Let us say that this is about 5 seconds. Jones would like us believe that one set should have been sufficient. Not even close, unfortunately. It takes much more accumulated time under intense mechanical tension to trigger hypertrophy. I estimated that this total must be from 1 to 2 minutes. Not very long for sure but we are talking about the last two reps in heavy sets. It probably can't be reduced to exact reps, but it is the accumulation of waste products caused by training to failure over and over with a heavy resistance. I would warm up doing a few sets in a pyramid fashion adding more weight for each set. When I couldn't complete my target reps I would use that number to repeat that set with the same weight over and over. Let us talk about bench press and the guy doing 200 pounds. It could be 400 pounds or any number. You keep adding weight until you fail at from 15 to 20 reps. Why such a high number? You will see in a moment. Suppose you ended up doing 15 reps with 140 pounds. You rest about 3 minutes and do another set of bench presses. You will find you might fail at 14 reps. On the 3rd set you fail at 14 reps. Then on the 4th set using the same 140 pounds you fail at 12 reps. Something happens in the muscles and you can't do as many reps. Since you are still doing over 10 reps your form remains good and you get a good pump. This helps avoid injuries as well. You continue until you have done 6 sets with the 140 pounds. You will be down to about 10 reps then. You should be pumped, exhausted and shaking. These are unavoidable symptoms of triggering hypertrophy in trained bodybuilders. There is no easy way to trigger hypertrophy. There are many protocols that you can choose but you have to go through the same physiological states.

If you think this is an easy program then try it on squats and see how you go.

pellius

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #173 on: April 06, 2015, 02:32:59 AM »
Now Ray I would see occasionally in Torrance/Redondo Bch area. Always friendly, always huge. Last time I saw him was at the 24hr gym on Hawthorn/Pacific Coast Hwy in Torrance. It was a while, maybe two years since I last saw him and I was thrilled. I was pointing him out to the other members, including some hard core meat heads, and was just disgusted that now one knew who he was. So much for bbing bringing you any lasting fame with the general public. He did look so good but was still huge. I always thought he had more of a traditional bbing look than Mike did. But that's what I liked about Mike. He had a slightly different look from other bbers in that era. His arms looked so thick just hanging to the side relaxed. And he had a very compact and extremed dense musculature. It's as if you took a hunk of his muscle out to examine it there would be more fibers per square inch and it would be thougher than a dry flank steak to cut through. In contrast someone like Phil Heath would be a nice tender Kobe steak where the knife slices through like butter.

I was reading a thread on another board where it's a Q and A with another alleged pro. I like him and think he is fair dinkum. Of course, it primarily revolves various hormone and peptide protocols but ever now and then an oldster will spoil the fun with a training question. The answer reminded me of you as it seems to be more along the lines of your training beliefs.

Quote from: cagedfreak;294813
Well I have always worked under the theory that if I can physically continue to train the muscle then it is not finished for the day....ok lets take a 16 set workout for chest, that gives 4 sets for incline 4 sets for flat bench, 4 sets for maybe decline, and the maybe 4 sets of pec dec, now I literally cannot imagine anyone whether ur a pro BB, ameteur BB, or anyone who even has a moderate level of fitness who could possibly consider that a full, adequate, muscle building workout session....im truely not trying to sound condesending but I just cant wrap my head around people thinking that a workout such as that is gonna cut it, 16 sets leaves no room for incline flies, champagnes, flat bench flies, hammer strength incline, hammer strength wide chest press, and the list goes on and on and on......the only thing I can think of is the fact that top bodybuilders often lie and swear up and down that they achieved there physique through a combo of moderate gear usage and moderate training.....i just dont know what else it could be causing almost everyone to think this way, but back to the point if u CAN continue to train that session then u NEED to push on until ur smoked, there is no magic number of sets exactly but use ur own good judgement, if u do 16sets and u truely feel like ur muscle is so smoked that u cannot continue....and u think that constitues a 5 to 7 day rest until u hit it again then continue to do 12 to 16 sets, but I think u know that isnt the case......my advice shoot for 50 sets, yes 50 sets, 5 working sets of at least 10 excersizes, 3 for upper chest, 3 mid chest, 3 lower chest, 1 finisher.....then u can look in the mirror and say to urself "fuck man, I did all I could today, im smoked" if u fall a little short of ur goal then u didnt want it enough



  

Vince B

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Re: I discovered something re hypertrophy yesterday and today.
« Reply #174 on: April 06, 2015, 07:18:04 PM »
About how many sets to do to stimulate hypertrophy in advanced bodybuilders. If we go by what we see in videos of most of the top pros we can conclude they do a lot of sets and exercises.

The main thing in common is plenty of mechanical tension of an intense nature accumulating over the workout. They are all doing similar things. Maybe 4 or 5 exercises and 15 to 25 sets.

Are any doing 50 sets per muscle group? I am not aware of any pro doing that many sets since Steve Michelik.

How many sets do I recommend doing? I can tell you a strategy to find out. Well, it may not be the number of sets. It could be the intensity and it could also be the specific exercises.

What you do is see if any DOMS appears the day after your workout. If not sore then you have to do something different the next time. More heavy sets, a different exercise, etc., until

you generate DOMS the day after.

I remember what Bryan Haycock wrote on his Hypertrophy Specific Forum. He is familiar with the scientific research into hypertrophy. When asked how long someone would have to train

to trigger the maximum amount of hypertrophy that was possible he replied perhaps 8 hours! So maybe doing 50 sets isn't as crazy as it sounds. Michelik wasn't a dope. For him that

is what he ended up doing to get huge. Larry Scott sure did a lot of sets for arms and shoulders. All those up and down the rack sets sure add up.

I was going to try an all day protocol. Warm up arms then alternate the maximum weight supersetting biceps and triceps for the whole day. Would have been interesting but I never

got around to trying it. If we apply the principle of progression it might be that even long sessions can be increased over a period of time. Start with half an hour then eventually

get up to 4 hours or longer. I think Serge Nubret also did very long protocols. So there could be something to all of this for some guys who haven't grown that much.

What bothers me is that the vast majority DON'T do extremely long workouts. That suggests they are not necessary. There seems to be a threshold that when crossed triggers hypertrophy

and we have little idea if sustained training after that point is beneficial.

The current beliefs are as follows. Train hard and eat more and you should grow. Follow what the champs do. If you can't get big it must be because you need drugs. If you take them and

still don't get huge you can blame your genetics. This belief has pretty much ended serious discussions about hypertrophy which is a shame. I still believe it is possible to get huge without

taking any drugs at all.