Its really pathetic that men that are not competing or making money from juicing there ass off think that you cant do anything off juice.I have done 3 grams of test a week many years ago and now im on nothing and test levels are around 270,i train hard as fuck and i am big,not bodybuilder ripped big but big.at every gym i go to everyone comments on my arm size and that is with no juice,low test levels,50-75 grams of protein a day and low calories in late 30s.people ask if i take test and i laugh.They then say its impossible to get big and strong past 30 natural and i laugh again.The mind is very powerful and if you want it bad enough you will get it.i have nothing against those who juice as i did for years but to think nothing is possible without it is crazy.I have a friend who is 54 and is 5'11 225 with visible abs and he is natural and noone believes him.people are different and are capable of different things.