how important are pre- and post-workout meals?

[cephissus]

Also how do you determine how many and what type of nutrients you eat in your pre- and post-workout meals?

For example, peworkout is a soda any better or worse than, say, oats?

I imagine its a matter of timing: the closer to the workout, the faster-digesting the nutrients should be?

What if you take in quick-digesting carbs too early?  It goes to glycogen for later retrieval, or fat if glycogen stores are full?

If glycogen stores are full, then, do you need a pre workout meal?

I swear sugar seems to 'trigger a release'.  Reason:  just 150 calories made the entirety of my 40 minute run feel drastically different (compared to fasting).  A 40 minute run should burn many more calories.  Then again, maybe the latter portion of the run felt different simply because I felt better from the start.

[DroppingPlates]

John Meadows is pretty particular on this subject (inner-workout as well), by emphasising that it could improve your recovery.

http://www.muscleandfitness.com/nutrition/gain-mass/time-your-meals-muscle-growth

[cephissus]

John Meadows is pretty particular on this subject (inner-workout as well), by emphasising that it could improve your recovery.

http://www.muscleandfitness.com/nutrition/gain-mass/time-your-meals-muscle-growth

So he recommends slow-digesting carbs before workout, fast digesting carbs during workout... Don't get why both are necessary.  Sugary food seems to hit me pretty much instantly... The energy seeems to be there right away.  Though maybe that's just a release of food I ate earlier?

[wes]

Before training,not all that important............aft er training more vital but there is no magic window of opportunity.


JUST EAT !!

[DroppingPlates]

So he recommends slow-digesting carbs before workout, fast digesting carbs during workout... Don't get why both are necessary.  Sugary food seems to hit me pretty much instantly... The energy seeems to be there right away.  Though maybe that's just a release of food I ate earlier?

I can't think for him, but my guess is that the low/mid glycaemic foods serve as a mid term foundation (say 2-3 hours), while the fast ones are consumed right when you need them (in between sets).
My energy level during a workout is much better when I drink 2 scoops of Vitargo, mixed with BCAA.
Of course it all depends on things like other foods throughout the day, training intensity and training time (morning, afternoon or evening), so his protocol is just a concept, though an interesting one.

[benchmstr]

Thanks for the reply.  You mentioned recently biking, working out, then eating two hours later -- so I take it you're not single digit at the moment, and you would have some peri-workout food if you were?

I honestly have no idea where I am at right now...I have abs but thats not a great indicator for me...I've been doing peri-workout this week because I have beat the shit out of myself....

I prefer mag-10 as my peri-workout...I ordered some more earlier actually.. was gonna order some of john meadows new peri-workout but since mag-10 has some protein in it I chose it instead...plus, ive used a shit load of mag-10 before and know it will work for me..

bench

[pellius]

I'm too lazy to go look, but I would guess peptide proteins are faster than free form aminos.
Glucose aka dextrose, which is what we have in our blood, is not as fast a carb as some complex carbs,
so it doesn't always work as you would assume.

How could this be? A complex carb is by definition "food" and needs to be digested and broken down into blood sugar, i.e., glucose.
I've had glucose injected into my vein during a medical test to bring up my blood sugar instantly but can't imagine what kind of complex carb can be injected into your blood stream for an even faster response.

As I understand it, all carbs, whether a sweet potato, banana or jelly beans; is broken down into glucose which is the only form of sugar your body uses as energy. The only diference is the rate at which it is broken down.

[Van_Bilderass]

How could this be? A complex carb is by definition "food" and needs to be digested and broken down into blood sugar, i.e., glucose.
I've had glucose injected into my vein during a medical test to bring up my blood sugar instantly but can't imagine what kind of complex carb can be injected into your blood stream for an even faster response.

As I understand it, all carbs, whether a sweet potato, banana or jelly beans; is broken down into glucose which is the only form of sugar your body uses as energy. The only diference is the rate at which it is broken down.

I can't explain it off-hand, but that's the way it is lol. That's the selling point of all these complex carbs like Vitargo and HBCD's etc. Even maltodextrin has a higher GI than glucose (which is 100). You can even feel it by slsmming down 100 grams of glucose, not that great on the stomach.

[robcguns]

Not important at all

[affeman]

Completely irrelevant, a calorie is a calorie. Just make sure you're not full and bloated entering a workout, everything else is Woodoo...

I was hating on the Adonis principles guys as well back in the days, till I realized that all the stuff with nutrient timing and macros we lived on for years and decades is complete BS and a myth. A question of faith at best, which would better fit into a church than into a gym lol

I eat two meals per day these days, most of the time whatever is around (guess around 2500 cals), train late at night most of the time and flush down a bowl of cereals with milk at home as "Post workout meal"lol and notice barely a difference...

[cephissus]

yesterday i went on a crazy binge. i've been on enough binges recently (i plan one every two weeks) to know, by feeling, the point where more food is going to completely immobilize me with crazy stomach pain and make me swear off binges forever.

this time, though, still had a pint of ice cream and a few other sweets to kill, so i decided to try something new.  i started lifting while eating.  now i had already done two pretty good workouts earlier that day -- legs at 5:30 AM and upper body at 5:30 PM.  now about 11 pm, i just decided to do random sets as i ate -- squats, rows, curls, tricep extensions, pullups, whatever.

interestingly, i was able to EASILY eat the ice cream, a couple protein / carb bars, a slice of peanut butter toast, and a few other odds and ends.  i never got to the "holy shit this is painful" phase.  every set seemed to give me more ability to pound down some heavy sweets and fat.

just another in a recent string of experiences that make me re-think my position on "nutrient timing" -- a concept i've long scoffed.

i don't think it will actually help me substantially change my body composition, but i think, when i'm this lean / nutrient starved, i may be able to significantly improve how my workouts feel and maintain a steady mental state by paying attention to when i eat and what nutrients i choose -- i think favoring too much protein may be seriously detrimental to "perform", both mentally and during workouts.

Completely irrelevant, a calorie is a calorie. Just make sure you're not full and bloated entering a workout, everything else is Woodoo...

interesting.  i've noticed that a lot of times i'm most beat down after a particularly stressful at work, i have the best workouts.  on such days, i often don't eat for an extended period of time either, being stuck on the phone dealing or in meetings dealing with people.  i've hypothesized that i perceive the workout to be better as it strikes a greater contrast with my earlier activities than usual -- but maybe it has more to do with the emptiness of my stomach.

[James28]

It's not 'important' but your body will appreciate it.

Btw, stop reading nutritional articles in Flex.

[cephissus]

yesterday, i drank about 160 calories of straight sugar right before my workout.  my workout was pretty good, but not as good as the ones earlier in the week, where i had used more solid food about 30-60 minutes before the workout.

last week: scraps of muffin + hot chocolate (120 cals) 30 min prior= 5/5
thursday: 1/2 lara bar + fruit (200 cals) 30 min prior = 4/5
friday: hot chocolate (160 cals) 10 min prior = 3/5

The hot chocolate day I didn't have quite the same feeling of "lightness" (high-energy, ready-to-go) as the other two days.  i wonder if it's because this newfound energy has let me drain myself more.  since the muffin / hot chocolate last week, i've been going nuts... many days i get this feeling of boundless energy.  before i know it, it's 9 PM (been up since 5 AM), and I've only had 1300 calories.  i keep busy, sometimes even til 11:30 PM!

i'm about to go on a huge bike ride now, after yesterday's binge. we'll see how it goes.

[affeman]

my workout was pretty good, but not as good as the ones earlier in the week, where i had used more solid food about 30-60 minutes before the workout.

A "solid meal" 30 mins before a workout? I'd puke all over the gym floor....

I make sure to fast at least 2-3 hours before I enter the gym, and always take a dump before.

[cephissus]

It's not 'important' but your body will appreciate it.

Btw, stop reading nutritional articles in Flex.

i should clarify, i still highly doubt it will help with long-term body-composition changes.  i don't think i can really get leaner or more muscular without changing calories or adding steroids.

it's just that i've noticed a WORLD of difference in feeling and physiological response between fasted workouts and non-fasted workouts.  could just be that i'm hyper-sensitive to any small change, given how morbidly routine my life is.  maybe this will all level out in a week or two.

nonetheless, i can't shake the feeling that cutting carbs in favor of protein has had a huge negative effect on my workouts and mental state.

the difference between a fasted run and a run with 150 cals of quick-digesting oats 15-30 min before hand:

  a.  muscular sensation: noticeable feelings in quads, hams, glutes
  b.  heaviness of breathing: much more out of breath
  c.  body temperature: far more sweating
  d.  sensation of speed: feel very fleet-footed
  e.  vascular prominence: drastically increased post workout
  f.   joint pain: dramatically decreased -- seems inversely proportional to muscular sensation

not so much of a difference in:

  g.  post-run mood: quite good in both cases
  h.  actual speed: duration of fixed-distance run almost identical

at work, when i swap a protein and fat only meal (e.g. 1 can tuna + 1/2 avocado with some cherry tomatoes and herbs) for a more balanced meal (e.g. balanced nutrition bar, with carbs/sugar), i've noticed:

  a.  mood: seems to instantly improve with each bite of sugary food
  b.  intelligence: seemingly able to solve complex problems with greater speed
  c.  focus: better able to focus on task at hand
  d.  no "food preoccupation": obsession with cooking, planning meals, worry over what i'm going to eat later
  e.  movement: much faster typing, tendency to walk more quickly
  f.  decision making: less conservative
  g.  scope of thought: thinking creatively, thinking wider variety of subjects, etc.  not preoccupied with needs and worries
  h.  anxiety: reduced

[cephissus]

A "solid meal" 30 mins before a workout? I'd puke all over the gym floor....

I make sure to fast at least 2-3 hours before I enter the gym, and always take a dump before.

by "solid meal" i mean 100-200 calories of food.  you're talking to a guy who has striated glutes year round, lol...

e.g. half a cookie, or a packet of oatmeal

[cephissus]

Just went for a three hour bike ride.  After m&ms, a pint of ice cream, a slice of raspberry crumble, a couple carb/protein bars, and a visit to the Brazilian steakhouse last night, I figured I should be maxed out on glycogen and ready to go.

About 30 minutes before, I ate 500 cals from oatmeal.  Some sugar.  Interestingly, I started off very slowly.  Nonetheless I noticed a lot of interesting effects, mostly mental:

- calm, mind able to wander.  Usually I'm worried about burning enough calories.
- although no pump or burn, I still felt my muscles, rather than my joints
- little to no joint pain
- little concern about where I was going
- no concern about getting lost

After an hour and a half, I was feeling very good.  I stopped at an ethnic market and picked up a sweet corn muffin, maybe 500-700 cals.  Almost immediately after eating it:

- dramatic increase in speed
- feeling of limitless energy
- almost dangerous lack of regard for safety -- went over a bridge with no shoulder where the speed limit was 60 mph, got honked at a few times, lol.
- euphoria
- dramatic reduction in perceived effort of pedalling

After what felt like hours, I noticed a lack of energy and increased discomfort from sitting.  Decided to call it a day.  To my dismay, it had only been another hour and a half.  After stopping, my mood came down to 'normal'.

During the ride, I hypothesized a high protein diet may be bad for me.  As I seek to eat the minimum number of calories, wanton protein consumption ends up implying very few carbs.

I started thinking: protein doesn't turn to glucose, nor does fat (easily?) without ketone bodies.  So without carbs, where does the glucose come from?  I'll have to research fat metabolism more, but for the time being, I think I'm going to try a new plan:

- quick digesting carbs (sugar) and protein (powder?) around workout.
- slow digesting carbs throughout the day (or frequent, small meals of quick digesting carbs)
- minimal fat, no more than 100 grams protein per day.

[NaturalWonder83]

Oh god

[Mr Anabolic]

The best workout drink I ever used was very simple and cheap... 1 scoop of whey protein, 25oz of water and 10-12oz of concord grape juice all mixed together.  I sip it through my workouts.  No problem training for 2 hours straight.

[SF1900]

I dont know how important they are. Postworkout I just do the standard protein shake, then eat after. But I usually wait like an hour. I am not really that hungry right after training.

[ritch]

3hr preworkout
90 gram oatmeal
250grs of berries and frozen pinneaple
50 gram protein whey iso

intra
50gr carbs from any friggen sugar source, does not matter with 10ish gram bcaa

Post
70 gram protein iso
50ish carbs from pure pinneaple juice

2ish hours later
blah, blah, blah,

[pellius]

I can't explain it off-hand, but that's the way it is lol. That's the selling point of all these complex carbs like Vitargo and HBCD's etc. Even maltodextrin has a higher GI than glucose (which is 100). You can even feel it by slsmming down 100 grams of glucose, not that great on the stomach.

One of maltodextrins selling points is that it is not classified as a sugar even though it has a GI index much higher than sucrose. Getting to put on the label "sugar free" is a big selling tag. But I don't think it is considered a complex carb.

[Van_Bilderass]

One of maltodextrins selling points is that it is not classified as a sugar even though it has a GI index much higher than sucrose. Getting to put on the label "sugar free" is a big selling tag. But I don't think it is considered a complex carb.

It is a complex carb, of course higher than sucrose which has a pretty low GI in fact (sucrose is half fructose).
But it's faster than glucose too which is what the GI is set after (100 GI).

Sucrose: about 65, compare to white rice which is at 89!
Maltodextrin: 105-130 depending on the chart.

[Simple Simon]

FFS people spending countless hours of their lives concentrating on when to eat a meal.

Get a fucking life.

[Van_Bilderass]

- quick digesting carbs (sugar) and protein (powder?) around workout.

Try some chocolate with a little bit of protein powder and/or BCAA's just before training.