Donating money to the church...

[Primemuscle]

I cant fathom u r so retarded that u dont know who i am when princess l is the one who lets me on here once a week..verified my id...and i posted pics of ma and also my dog

Fucking tards on here

Fathom this, it makes no difference who you are, your comments are the same kind of comments/threats Joon makes. Sorry if it bothers you that you resemble him in this way. That's got to sting a little.

BTW, I am happy for you to have the opportunity to post here. You should petition for more air time.

How is Potato anyway?

[Set It Up]

Fathom this, it makes no difference who you are, your comments are the same kind of comments/threats Joon makes. Sorry if it bothers you that you resemble him in this way. That's got to sting a little.

BTW, I am happy for you to have the opportunity to post here. You should petition for more air time.

How is Potato anyway?

Im honored to sound like joon
Potato is awesome

[Dave D]

You sound shocked that he doesn't believe in a divine power at all. A lot of people don't. Many on here dont, including myself. In this day and age, its really all not that surprising.

Shocked would be to intense a word, mostly surprised.  I don't expect everyone to have the same outlooks but given all we don't know as big as the universe is and our limited understanding/perspective of it,  to think that there isn't a being greater than us (that we would consider godlike),  is an interesting thought.

[SF1900]

Shocked would be to intense a word, mostly surprised.  I don't expect everyone to have the same outlooks but given all we don't know as big as the universe is and our limited understanding/perspective of it,  to think that there isn't a being greater than us (that we would consider godlike),  is an interesting thought.

Exactly. Given our limited understanding of the universe, it actually makes more sense NOT to believe in a divine power. Its actually asinine to believe in something only with a limited understanding. That's called gullibility. Would you trust a doctor to perform brain surgery on you if he only had a limited understanding of the brain? No. So why would you assume a God exists with only a limited understanding of our universe? That actually makes no sense at all to me.

To each their own.

[Dave D]

Exactly. Given our limited understanding of the universe, it actually makes more sense NOT to believe in a divine power. Its actually asinine to believe in something only with a limited understanding. That's called gullibility. Would you trust a doctor to perform brain surgery on you if he only had a limited understanding of the brain? No. So why would you assume a God exists with only a limited understanding of our universe? That actually makes no sense at all to me.

To each their own.

Valid point except doctors only have limited understanding of the brain, or any part of the human body. You could schedule a surgery with the best neurosurgeon in the world but that doesn't mean he will be able to fix whatever issue you have.

I'm assuming you invest in a 401k type of retirement despite not having a complete understanding of the financial structure of the stock market.

Everyday we believe in ideas and concepts that we have limited understanding of. We are constantly learning and evolving in our understanding.  

SF1900 I know you're intelligent and educated, and based on who you project online I respect you very much. I wasn't attacking you or your beliefs when I asked why you believed the way you do, I was just trying to get understanding.

[Primemuscle]

Im honored to sound like joon
Potato is awesome

I guess it depends on who learned what from who, when, where and why.

Of course Potato is awesome. He's loved.

[Croatch]

Croatch, Josh and anyone else this applies to:

I know your stance and respect your feelings towards  Christianity, Croatch you made a fantastic case for your beliefs,  but as a serious question you don't believe in a divine power at all?

Also is there a reason you choose Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy as the comparison to God? I get it that you see them all as imaginary,  mythical characters but the Jedo Christian God of the Bible isn't portrayed as a genie in the Scriptures.

Again not trolling just asking legit curiosities. Thanks.

I would assume there is not one, but yes...it's possible, as are many things.  Unicorns may exist, but probably not.  The reason why so many stand behind the bible is it's popular belief...passed down by generation...not always, but usually the case.  Much like Muslims do with their children and so on.  What are the chances you were born into the correct religion?  Suicide bombers are no different than Christians.  They were told something enough times from a young age and believed it.  Different ideologies, but lemmings all the same.
I enjoyed when Bush called Al-Quada the axis of evil...meanwhile we bomb more people under a Christian "be kind to your fellow man" religion.  Without religion, you would actually have a more peaceful world.  What good does any of it do?  You can have morals without religion.
Just because the masses believe a fictional story, doesn't make it so.  Anyone is free to believe whatever, but if you apply logic to the bible and most religions...they crumble.  Not to mention, back when the bible was written...can you imagine how unintelligent man was?  They still thought the earth was flat.  200 years from now people will look back and due to science, realize it was all lies.
Read the first few pages of the bible...it sounds like a bad nursery school book.  And on the 5th day, he created...blah blah blah.  It's an obvious book full of tales and bullshit.

[Man of Steel]

No trolling at all.  It's a serious topic.  Judging by the scripture in your avatar...you bought the story too.
Imagine if you first heard the story of the bible from someone at the age of 30.  You would literally laugh at the person if they tried to pass it as a factual.  As a fictional tale, you'd applaud and say...good one!
I'm honestly not trolling, but am legitimate in my points here.
If you try to apply logic to the bible, it fails every time.  Religion can not be based on facts and logic though, as we know.  Mythical creatures and stories are great when you're a kid, but at some point someone has to let you in on the secret...there is no God.  Same kind of thing with Santa Claus.  I remember when kids in school at the age of 7 would say he didn't exist, I didn't believe them.  When I realized they were telling the truth...I accepted it and moved on.  Consider doing the same.

Ok so you're not trolling but grounding your position in logic.

Yet you introduce the thread with ad hominem fallacy and reply to me with a non sequitur fallacy.

Logic itself is transcendent and grounded in the nature of God.  Whether or not our minds exist logical absolutes hold true.  Logical absolutes are not contingent upon naturalism, humanity, space or time.  Logic is a process of our brains, but the logical absolutes that ground it are not.

[Man of Steel]

I would assume there is not one, but yes...it's possible, as are many things.  Unicorns may exist, but probably not.  The reason why so many stand behind the bible is it's popular belief...passed down by generation...not always, but usually the case.  Much like Muslims do with their children and so on.  What are the chances you were born into the correct religion?  Suicide bombers are no different than Christians.  They were told something enough times from a young age and believed it.  Different ideologies, but lemmings all the same.
I enjoyed when Bush called Al-Quada the axis of evil...meanwhile we bomb more people under a Christian "be kind to your fellow man" religion.  Without religion, you would actually have a more peaceful world.  What good does any of it do?  You can have morals without religion.I
Just because the masses believe a fictional story, doesn't make it so.  Anyone is free to believe whatever, but if you apply logic to the bible and most religions...they crumble.  Not to mention, back when the bible was written...can you imagine how unintelligent man was?  They still thought the earth was flat.  200 years from now people will look back and due to science, realize it was all lies.
Read the first few pages of the bible...it sounds like a bad nursery school book.  And on the 5th day, he created...blah blah blah.  It's an obvious book full of tales and bullshit.

People can have morals without religion is a true statement, but what is the standard by which those morals are grounded?

Can only be a subjective standard because two groups of folks can hold opposite opinions on an issue.  One says it's fine and the other says it isn't.   Which is correct?   Without an absolute moral standard there is no objectivity in your worldview....only subjectivity.

Further the continued notion that the "bible is a bronze age book written by goatherders" and therefore can't be trusted is a genetic fallacy of logic.

[Man of Steel]

From what I hear, all churches have to give some money to the Vatican. The Vatican was responsible for moving child molesting priests from church to church in order to avoid prosecution. Any money you donate may go toward the Vatican. Who would want their money to possibly go toward an organization which supports pedophillia? 

Perhaps within the scope of Roman Catholicism this practice exists, but it is not true with reformed Protestant churches.   There is no allegiance to the papacy or financial commitment to the Vatican.  Just not true.

[Mr Anabolic]

People like to support their local gay brothel. 

[Man of Steel]

Are you actually trying to say that the bible gives an objective stance on morality? despite all it's ridiculous contradictions, despite the fact the bible depicts god himself as a murdering, capricious psychopath, who punishes and kills people in fits of jealousy and rage? If we are all to get our morality from the bible, then the world would be a far worse off place. Thankfully, most people have evolved enough to dismiss the teachings of these religious scriptures, and instead base their morality off of common sense and empathy.

Do you reject these parts of the bible as bullshit, or do you attempt to claim that the stories of noah's ark and all the other old testament nonsense about god's wrath being enforced, as allegory's as opposed to fact?  Because last time i asked you to explain Gods clear indifference to pain going on in the world now, you came up with some ambiguous rambling that god "abhors the pain and suffering" but he's infinite in nature and created us all with free will etc etc....all baseless assertions i might add, but what it means is that for this to be true, then the old testament is nothing but bullshit, god never intervened or punished anyone, and all of the stories in it are symbolic. Either that or he's just stopped bothering these days!

As for the claim that it would be a logical fallacy to claim the bible cannot be trusted due to it's outdated views on the world...well, that's clearly nonsense too. What facts has the bible given us? All of it's claims on how the world came to exist, have been proven to be completely false. Only a genuine psychopath would try to state otherwise. It was written at a time when people had no understanding at all about the universe or any other scientific discovery. Surely if it was containing the words passed down by god, you would think that the creator of it all would have a bit more of a clue about how it all works. Or is he just tricking us all to test our faith? lol

Do you have an opinion on the notion of logic I mentioned above?  Yes, I see you noted "nonsense" to the genetic fallacy piece, but replied with a response about how the bible doesn't explain the scientific principles of naturalism.  You're mixing worldviews improperly there....I wouldn't seek out biological facts with a toaster manual.  

I've already repeatedly discussed every facet of the remaining dump of red herrings you noted.   Not gonna type and type anymore or search out and cobble together my old posts only for someone to reply with "Bull$*!t." or not read the reply at all.  That's roughly 99% of what occurs in my experience.   Answers to those issues are in my post history, Christian websites, apologetic websites, etc...  Don't want em? Don't get em.   I'm gonna do far less spoon feeding going forward.  Outspoken newbs to these discussions will call me weak and unable to answer their objections.  That's fine by me....been there, done all that.

[Howard]

From what I hear, all churches have to give some money to the Vatican. The Vatican was responsible for moving child molesting priests from church to church in order to avoid prosecution. Any money you donate may go toward the Vatican. Who would want their money to possibly go toward an organization which supports pedophillia?  

Only applies to Catholic churches.

[mazrim]

Not to mention, back when the bible was written...can you imagine how unintelligent man was?  They still thought the earth was flat.

Funny you mention that since the Bible was the book that said the earth was round going against the common thought at the time....
People really need to read what they make comments on. As is often the case with these topics a lot of the participants do not have much knowledge beyond what they are told the Bible says by someone who never has read it themselves/read on the internet. Much like you say that it is engrained in Christians to believe what they do from being raised that way the opposite is true as well. Ideas/thoughts are engrained that come from false assumptions to begin with. Basically, what I am saying is people need to read more about topics instead of taking someone's word to be true.

[polychronopolous]

And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, [even] of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. - Leviticus 27:32

I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. - Luke 18:12

[loco]

Some people say tithing is not in the new Testament, and that Jesus never spoke of it.

Matthew 23:23
New International Version (NIV)

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

[Man of Steel]

You have a habit of dodging the actual questions.  It is you that is assuming that we are dismissing the biblical contents based on its age alone or the fact that it was written by "goat herders", that's not what i'm doing... the claims in the bible are either true or they aren't. was the earth created in 6 days? no it clearly wasn't. Is it 6000 years old...no it clearly isn't. Is there ANY evidence at all of any divine intervention, prayers being answered, evidence of a god etc? no! that is why the bible should be dismissed as nonsense.

LOL!!!  "dodging the questions".  I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh, but given the countless hours I've put into my replies over the years this is funny to me, but it's new to you...that's fine.

Ok, once again....

I've already repeatedly discussed every facet of the remaining dump of red herrings you noted.   Not gonna type and type anymore or search out and cobble together my old posts only for someone to reply with "Bull$*!t." or not read the reply at all.  That's roughly 99% of what occurs in my experience.   Answers to those issues are in my post history, Christian websites, apologetic websites, etc...  Don't want em? Don't get em.   I'm gonna do far less spoon feeding going forward.  Outspoken newbs to these discussions will call me weak and unable to answer their objections.  That's fine by me....been there, done all that.

I used to write little novels for everyone with a question or objection.  I've reached the point in which the same questions and objections are simply repeating over and over with new folks.  Not gonna spoon fed every "Joe Atheist" an exhaustive reply they'll potentially bat away with ""Bull$*!t."  Roughly 1% of folks actually read and discuss what I wrote, but I'm now at the point with that entire 1% in which I know all their objections before they are written and they know all my replies before they are written.  There's little else to be said, but we chat (even heatedly so) despite that.

I have years of post history indicating I don't dodge questions....you're just new to discussions.   Welcome.  

Finally, last time I wrote a long reply with cobbled together old posts of mine I sent it to you (because I hadn't done that for you before...gotta test the waters) and this was your response:

i can't even begin to argue with all that haha. It will go on to be a 100 page thread of endless, crazy assertions that don't even tie in with what the bible says. MOS i appreciate the fact that you wrote such a detailed response and are a clearly passionate guy. If you're getting something positive from it all then i'm glad. Just don't use your faith to fear monger or corrupt the minds of "jesus's little ones" into thinking they're going to hell for acting on perfectly natural, human instincts.

This was basically the "didn't read" reply.  I put forth the effort and answered every single objection you posed.

Today I know how you respond to replies like that......I'm not wasting my time with your current objection dump.  Told you where to find answers....go get em chief.  

[loco]

Anyone know people like this?  Dumbest shit I ever heard of.
Imaginary guy in the sky...keep believing.

Any worse, when a smart individual does so.

Yes, I know someone like this:  Me.  I give 10% of my gross income to my church.  Neither I nor my church are Catholic.

My church provides food, shelter, medicine, education, counseling and much more to the poor in the local community and overseas.

My church provides free, professional counseling training to volunteer church members who in turn provide free counseling to people in the community.  This includes financial counseling, marital and premarital counseling, counseling for depression, counseling for addictions, and much more.

My church provides food, shelter, medicine and other basic supplies to people who have been through a catastrophe such as flooding, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc., locally and overseas.

There is much much more, but I'm trying to keep this short.  My church is not the only one doing all these things for the community.  There are thousands of churches around the world doing the same.  

Churches couldn't possibly afford to do any of these things if it wasn't for "people like this" doing the "dumbest shit" you ever heard of, donating money...and time to their church.  If people stop doing this, then the churches will have to stop providing all of these services to the community.  Who then will provide all of these services?

[Man of Steel]

Yes, I know someone like this:  Me.  I give 10% of my gross income to my church.  Neither I nor my church are Catholic.

My church provides food, shelter, medicine, education, counseling and much more to the poor in the local community and overseas.

My church provides free, professional counseling training to volunteer church members who in turn provide free counseling to people in the community.  This includes financial counseling, marital and premarital counseling, counseling for depression, counseling for addictions, and much more.

My church provides food, shelter, medicine and other basic supplies to people who have been through a catastrophe such as flooding, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc., locally and overseas.

There is much much more, but I'm trying to keep this short.  My church is not the only one doing all these things for the community.  There are thousands of churches around the world doing the same.  

Churches couldn't possibly afford to do any of these things if it wasn't for "people like this" doing the "dumbest shit" you ever heard of, donating money...and time to the Church.  If people stop doing this, then the church will have to stop providing all of these services to the community.  Who then will provide all of these services?

The atheist organizations in Austin, Texas (some of the biggest in the nation....and maybe the planet) lead by Matt Dillahunty and AronRa have stated that atheists organizations do far more charitable and outreach work than the churches do.

But hey, what do I know?  I'm a theist and they're atheists so that automatically makes them correct, right?

The outreach aspect of their claim is what I question.  What outreach programs/services do they provide?  Virtually every atheist I've spoken to defines their organization in terms of collaborative agreement on a "no God" or "lack of God" position.....that's basically it.   Never have I seen organized services provided.  Yes, they may claim to align with secular organizations that do so, but that doesn't auto-translate into their own "atheist outreach".....bit of misrepresentation and definition stretching I think.  

Churches often develop and fund their own programs in house or they collaborate/partner with other organizations and make that distinction pretty clear.

[latiuss]

They preach money is the root of all evil, then ask for money...

[Man of Steel]

They preach money is the root of all evil, then ask for money...

Actually they preach that the love of money is the root of all evil.   Money in and of itself is benign.   Organizations need money to function.

1 Timothy 6:10
10 For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

[loco]

They preach money is the root of all evil, then ask for money...

Nobody is preaching that money is the root of all evil.  Churches preach that the "love of money" is the root of all evil, not the money itself.

1 Timothy 6:10
New International Version (NIV)

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

[Man of Steel]

Nobody is preaching that money is the root of all evil.  Churches preach that the "love of money" is the root of all evil, not the money itself.

1 Timothy 6:10
New International Version (NIV)

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

20 second response time between us LOL! 

You hit em with the NIV and I hit em with the NASB.

[latiuss]

Ok they preach the love of money is evil, yet love money?...

[Hulk-smash!]

I give Jim & Tammy Fay Bakker 1/2 my check every month as a good PTL partner in hope.