Author Topic: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!  (Read 1768183 times)

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11850 on: February 04, 2025, 03:45:09 PM »
I doubt the strategic reserve details will be released soon. They don't want the price to runup before they can enter a position. They will probably decide behind the scenes and might even want the prices to come down so they can enter at a lower level. Remember the gold confiscations in 1933. They declared the price at $20.67 per troy ounce. Once the US had enough gold they allowed the public to buy again. Real shitty move. I doubt they would get away with that now. So they have to try other tactics.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11851 on: February 04, 2025, 03:50:26 PM »
https://www.thestreet.com/crypto/markets/as-trumps-crypto-project-moves-eth-donald-trumps-son-endorses-ether

Donald Trump’s son endorses Ether as Trump family crypto project moves ETH
Eric Trump publicly suggested it's a "great time" to invest in Ether, as the family crypto venture moved its Ether holdings.

On Monday, Donald Trump’s son, Eric Trump, appeared to endorse the world’s second-largest cryptocurrency, Ether, on social media: “In my opinion, it’s a great time to add $ETH,” he wrote.

On the same day, the Trump family crypto venture, World Liberty Financial, transferred more than $307 million in crypto to Coinbase Prime, including $212.6 million in ETH (Ether).

In the immediate aftermath of the post, Ether's price jumped to $2,900, while also being propped up by President Donald Trump’s decision to halt tariffs on Mexico and Canada. World Liberty Financial denied any dubious activity: “To be clear, we are not selling tokens — we are simply reallocating assets for ordinary business purposes,” the Trump-linked crypto project said.

Eric Trump maintains a financial stake in World Liberty Financial, and also holds Ether, Bitcoin, Solana, Sui, and other cryptocurrencies.

His social media post quickly engendered discussion in the crypto community, particularly among Bitcoin advocates who questioned Ether’s market prospects relative to Bitcoin. Pierre Rochard, Vice President of Research at Bitcoin mining company Riot Platforms, dismissed the endorsement, writing, “Adding ETH to my list of things not to buy.” Others on social media castigated Eric Trump for not including his wallet address or Etherscan link detailing his own Ether transaction history.

The price of Ether is currently trading near $2,825, according to CoinGecko.

Despite the Trump family's involvement, some analysts view Ether's recent market action as a bullish signal, though they urge caution. "Yesterday’s 34% drop in Ether was quickly bought up, which typically indicates a growing presence of buyers in the market,” Arthur Azizov told TheStreet Crypto. “When we see such a strong recovery, it often suggests that the price is likely to move upward."

However, Azizov told TheStreet Crypto that Ether's price could fall again before potentially continuing upward. “Yesterday’s move, which ended at $2,125, has formed another liquidity shelf in the $2,112-$2,094 range, which means that the price could revisit the $2,000 level in the near future,” he said.

Escalating trade tensions between China and the U.S. have also impacted crypto markets in the last 24 hours. “Ether [has] fallen under its 200-day moving average and enter[ed] the consolidation area from August to October last year,” said Alex Kuptsikevich, FxPro chief market analyst. “We often view Ether as the ‘canary’ of the crypto market, and it’s not feeling great.”

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11852 on: February 04, 2025, 03:54:02 PM »
^^^^^^
Eric Trump's tweet could have been a test to see how volatile Ethereum is. Musk proved before how he could influence the Doge price. The reality is any asset can be pumped or dumped by the right person, including Bitcoin.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11853 on: February 04, 2025, 03:57:40 PM »
This just shows that they are investing without understanding anything. Eric and Barron are just basic, brainless investors.
All the influencers are former investors back when Ethereum was the only one with all the extra features compared to Bitcoin. now they just don't want to give up their tokens from a blockchain that is dying because it is impossible to reform it.
XRP is the same but worse in terms of mafia, token manipulation and the value of this non-blockchain.
The majority of stablecoins are on Ethereum. Ethereum has the highest TVL. 13-year olds care about memes on Solana, cheap fees, and don't worry about failed transactions. Big institutions though do care about reliability. High fees are not an issue for them either.

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5262
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11854 on: February 04, 2025, 11:30:43 PM »
I can't take you serious when you make ridiculous claims that ETH will decline to $100 which is a fair value. Are you nuts?! That's completely naïve and delusional thinking. You were wrong about the SEC and Ethereum and you're wrong about that.

There are over 1 million validators and 33 million staked ETH.

Ethereum is arguably more decentralized than Bitcoin. It never goes down, offers yield at a lower inflation rate than the current BTC, is being adopted worldwide by institutions and banks, has a first-mover smart contract advantage like Bitcoin has with blockchains.

There are more developers working on building out Ethereum than any other chain by a large margin.

Just the ETH L2 Base has about as many developers as Bitcoin. There are ten times more developers in the Ethereum network than Bitcoin. And many of them started with Bitcoin, including Vitalik.

https://www.developerreport.com/

ETH is extremely undervalued against BTC. A fair value to me should at a minimum be 3:1 or even 1:1. Maybe ETH is more valuable than BTC when you consider all BTC's shortcomings and even disregard the bigger ETH supply!  ;D

Obsidian - you really are, naively, confusing multiple concepts here. MayDay says a lot of stuff, but one thing he has a number of times tried to explain (and I think it just went over your head) which I agree with, are the different functions of BTC vs Eth, which in turn are relevant to their valuations.

I am thinking now, by the way that you talk, that you may never really have had experience in fundamental valuation of assets - am I correct? (For example, the "Trump coin", which you mentioned at its peak you "wished you had bought", has fallen from $70 to $18 in less than a few weeks. This is really a perfect example of lack of understanding of asset valuation fundamentals).

So, let me explain a little, as maybe it is wrong of me to assume everyone innately knows how this is done. (As you know, I come from a traditional finance and investing background, so to me and those around me, this is really quite an innate skill, much like a language we have grown up with. Its core to how we look at any asset or investment opportunity. But I get it - there is an entirely generation who has grown up not learning these skills - perhaps especially the whole crypto degen and Wall St Bets generation. And we see examples of it on this thread, and not only from you).

Price is, in the short term, driven by demand for an asset. And the creation of an Eth staking yield post-merge led to some initial appeal for Eth. They thought they were being smart in trying to outdo BTC. But they actually laid their own trap which commenced their downfall. Indeed, the downside of such shitcoinery, is that this development was actually the final nail in the coffin which led Eth to be perceived (and valued) as a capital value asset (as opposed to a store of value asset). And what that means is that it then becomes more likely to be priced over time, on an intrinsic valuation methodology using the traditional discounted cash flow model which is applied to valuing other income generating assets such as stocks. And that’s where, over time, price of Eth will be a lot more tied to revenue and profitability metrics as opposed to store of value utility (which BTC now owns) or any kind of other usage or adoption metrics of Eth which initially created some interest in the asset. This is also the case due to Eth's security-ike properties, which the market is slowly understanding, and which I have tried to explain so many times. Remember, its not what the SEC calls Eth which matters, but rather what Eth fundamentally is which does. And again, due to its security like properties, it increasingly becomes valued as a security would - that cannot be stopped, which is why my and Gensler's many earlier explanations about Eth's security-like properties, vs BTC are important to understand and take heed of. I was 100% right about this, and we are of course now slowly seeing the consequences of this being realized (for obvious reasons). Remember earlier my explanation that you can put a piece of shit into an ETF wrapper - but that does not fundamentally change the quality of what is its you have wrapped! Whether you call it a security or not, it is irrelevant. The market has sniffed this out, and it knows what Eth is. And that is of course why Eth has continued to flop.

As for what Eth should be valued using a DCF model, I deliberately triggered you with my eventual $100 valuation statement. I did it because I am trying to prompt you on your journey of understanding, to think, deeply, "how do I correctly value Eth? (Clue - its not "oh 1000's of developers use it, Eric Trump said he likes it, banks find it secure, etc). Really - think about it. Look at the total revenue, (and try to forecast the impact on future revenue growth from cheaper and faster alternatives such as Solana and others), and then look at the current market cap - then look at the PE, and then compare that to a similar size tech company. And then consider relative valuations for the risk taken. That will give you your number. Treat Eth as a business, and assess whether the price per share is currently at good value.

And then further, bear in mind that any increase in the value of Eth is fundamentally incongruous to its desirability to being used as a utility token. Think about that for a moment. You are investing in an asset which you seem to value due to it being used as token for a smart chain for certain typos of transactions, yet the more the price of such a token goes up, the less of an incentive there is to use it and the more of an incentive there is to use an alternative (the number of which are infinite)! Vitalik also commented on this phenomenon many years ago. Think about the insanity of this for just a moment.

As to what is Eth's true valuation is on a proper valuation methodology, it’s a longer conversation with numerous variables which require future assumptions which are rather unclear. I have done some back of envelope calculations using my models and I get a current valuation ranging between as low as $100 to as high as, theoretically, $5000, (depending among other things an assumption of continued future revenue growth, and also estimates on what number I should use as the future risk free rate of return). What I do think though, regardless, is that we are on a progressively downward trend, coming from an extremely overvalued level due a fundamental investor misunderstanding of value. And that is a really tough tide to swim against as an investor.

Right, now that really is it for a while. Good luck! Please consider scaling back into BTC. That little selloff in Eth should serve as warning as to what might be ahead. Markets often give you these little hits and warnings - ignore them at your peril. These are like little earthquake tremors before the big one. Please do some thinking - do the exercise I suggested on another post, of you debating all the pros/cons with yourself - really I suggest you do this. Do not let me have to come back still debating on this with you when Eth hits a 5 year low to BTC, which will happen (for obvious reasons).

And PS - you know which paragraph I will be quoting of myelf, when I do come back to this thread, don't you. :)

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11855 on: February 05, 2025, 04:42:15 PM »
Obsidian - you really are, naively, confusing multiple concepts here. MayDay says a lot of stuff, but one thing he has a number of times tried to explain (and I think it just went over your head) which I agree with, are the different functions of BTC vs Eth, which in turn are relevant to their valuations.

I am thinking now, by the way that you talk, that you may never really have had experience in fundamental valuation of assets - am I correct? (For example, the "Trump coin", which you mentioned at its peak you "wished you had bought", has fallen from $70 to $18 in less than a few weeks. This is really a perfect example of lack of understanding of asset valuation fundamentals).

So, let me explain a little, as maybe it is wrong of me to assume everyone innately knows how this is done. (As you know, I come from a traditional finance and investing background, so to me and those around me, this is really quite an innate skill, much like a language we have grown up with. Its core to how we look at any asset or investment opportunity. But I get it - there is an entirely generation who has grown up not learning these skills - perhaps especially the whole crypto degen and Wall St Bets generation. And we see examples of it on this thread, and not only from you).

Price is, in the short term, driven by demand for an asset. And the creation of an Eth staking yield post-merge led to some initial appeal for Eth. They thought they were being smart in trying to outdo BTC. But they actually laid their own trap which commenced their downfall. Indeed, the downside of such shitcoinery, is that this development was actually the final nail in the coffin which led Eth to be perceived (and valued) as a capital value asset (as opposed to a store of value asset). And what that means is that it then becomes more likely to be priced over time, on an intrinsic valuation methodology using the traditional discounted cash flow model which is applied to valuing other income generating assets such as stocks. And that’s where, over time, price of Eth will be a lot more tied to revenue and profitability metrics as opposed to store of value utility (which BTC now owns) or any kind of other usage or adoption metrics of Eth which initially created some interest in the asset. This is also the case due to Eth's security-ike properties, which the market is slowly understanding, and which I have tried to explain so many times. Remember, its not what the SEC calls Eth which matters, but rather what Eth fundamentally is which does. And again, due to its security like properties, it increasingly becomes valued as a security would - that cannot be stopped, which is why my and Gensler's many earlier explanations about Eth's security-like properties, vs BTC are important to understand and take heed of. I was 100% right about this, and we are of course now slowly seeing the consequences of this being realized (for obvious reasons). Remember earlier my explanation that you can put a piece of shit into an ETF wrapper - but that does not fundamentally change the quality of what is its you have wrapped! Whether you call it a security or not, it is irrelevant. The market has sniffed this out, and it knows what Eth is. And that is of course why Eth has continued to flop.

As for what Eth should be valued using a DCF model, I deliberately triggered you with my eventual $100 valuation statement. I did it because I am trying to prompt you on your journey of understanding, to think, deeply, "how do I correctly value Eth? (Clue - its not "oh 1000's of developers use it, Eric Trump said he likes it, banks find it secure, etc). Really - think about it. Look at the total revenue, (and try to forecast the impact on future revenue growth from cheaper and faster alternatives such as Solana and others), and then look at the current market cap - then look at the PE, and then compare that to a similar size tech company. And then consider relative valuations for the risk taken. That will give you your number. Treat Eth as a business, and assess whether the price per share is currently at good value.

And then further, bear in mind that any increase in the value of Eth is fundamentally incongruous to its desirability to being used as a utility token. Think about that for a moment. You are investing in an asset which you seem to value due to it being used as token for a smart chain for certain typos of transactions, yet the more the price of such a token goes up, the less of an incentive there is to use it and the more of an incentive there is to use an alternative (the number of which are infinite)! Vitalik also commented on this phenomenon many years ago. Think about the insanity of this for just a moment.

As to what is Eth's true valuation is on a proper valuation methodology, it’s a longer conversation with numerous variables which require future assumptions which are rather unclear. I have done some back of envelope calculations using my models and I get a current valuation ranging between as low as $100 to as high as, theoretically, $5000, (depending among other things an assumption of continued future revenue growth, and also estimates on what number I should use as the future risk free rate of return). What I do think though, regardless, is that we are on a progressively downward trend, coming from an extremely overvalued level due a fundamental investor misunderstanding of value. And that is a really tough tide to swim against as an investor.

Right, now that really is it for a while. Good luck! Please consider scaling back into BTC. That little selloff in Eth should serve as warning as to what might be ahead. Markets often give you these little hits and warnings - ignore them at your peril. These are like little earthquake tremors before the big one. Please do some thinking - do the exercise I suggested on another post, of you debating all the pros/cons with yourself - really I suggest you do this. Do not let me have to come back still debating on this with you when Eth hits a 5 year low to BTC, which will happen (for obvious reasons).

And PS - you know which paragraph I will be quoting of myelf, when I do come back to this thread, don't you. :)
Thanks for the finance lecture, Professor Buffett. I’ll be sure to run ETH through a DCF model before making my next move. Meanwhile, the market will keep doing what it does—being unpredictable and not necessarily aligning with rigid valuation theories. But please, do come back and quote yourself in the future. I’m sure it’ll be enlightening.

You make a lot of bold claims about ETH’s valuation, but you’re also hedging with a $100-$5000 range, which is comically wide. You can’t simultaneously argue that ETH is on a path to collapse while acknowledging that valuation models are highly variable. Markets don’t strictly follow textbook DCF models, especially in crypto, where utility, adoption, and network effects play a major role. And if ETH truly follows security-like valuation principles, why has BTC—an asset with zero yield—outperformed most traditional ‘store of value’ assets in the last decade?

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11856 on: February 05, 2025, 04:45:01 PM »
Interesting move.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/microstrategy-rebrands-strategy-bitcoin-inspired-191500833.html

MicroStrategy rebrands as Strategy with a Bitcoin-inspired logo

Bitcoin-maximalist and business intelligence firm MicroStrategy (MSTR) has rebranded as Strategy, unveiling a new identity centered around Bitcoin.The rebrand features a stylized “B” logo and adopts orange as its primary brand color, which the company says symbolizes energy, intelligence, and Bitcoin. With the rebrand, the company announced that Strategy is now “the world’s first and largest “Bitcoin Treasury Company.”


obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11857 on: February 05, 2025, 04:46:44 PM »
The ETH Spot ETFs saw an inflow yesterday of $307.8 million. BlackRock's ETHA accumulated $276.2 million. The ETHA fund now holds $4,413.2 million.

https://farside.co.uk/eth/

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11858 on: February 05, 2025, 04:48:16 PM »
US Ethereum ETFs hit record $1.5 billion trading amid Trump's new tariffs
US spot Ethereum ETFs achieved a record $1.5 billion in trading volume on February 3, demonstrating a 23% increase from their previous high, coinciding with a significant drop in crypto prices following President Trump's tariff announcements. BlackRock, Grayscale, and Fidelity led the trading volumes. Despite a downturn in crypto prices, US Ethereum ETFs observed net inflows of $83.6 million, the highest since January 16.

https://cryptobriefing.com/newsbriefs/?id=162400&title=us-ethereum-etfs-hit-record-1-5-billion-trading-amid-trumps-new-tariffs

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5262
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11859 on: February 05, 2025, 10:51:52 PM »
Thanks for the finance lecture, Professor Buffett. I’ll be sure to run ETH through a DCF model before making my next move. Meanwhile, the market will keep doing what it does—being unpredictable and not necessarily aligning with rigid valuation theories. But please, do come back and quote yourself in the future. I’m sure it’ll be enlightening.

You make a lot of bold claims about ETH’s valuation, but you’re also hedging with a $100-$5000 range, which is comically wide. You can’t simultaneously argue that ETH is on a path to collapse while acknowledging that valuation models are highly variable. Markets don’t strictly follow textbook DCF models, especially in crypto, where utility, adoption, and network effects play a major role. And if ETH truly follows security-like valuation principles, why has BTC—an asset with zero yield—outperformed most traditional ‘store of value’ assets in the last decade?

Market - short term it's a voting machine, long term it's a weighing machine. (If you do not understand what that means, do a little research. Very important concept for any investor to understand).

Eth valuation - point is, that valuation metrics are not overly reliable, especially in the crypto space. For example, we don't really know how much Eth will be displaced by competitors, how much Eth transaction revenue will decline if Eth token prices rise, etc. But to be clear, my prediction is that BTC will continue to decline to BTC over time (for obvious reasons). The best we can do is make an educated guess, and chose the most likely of scenarios, discarding the more extreme outlying scenarios (except for max risk tolerance purposes). Short term is harder to predict, although you can see I have been continuously right as Eth fell around 50% to BTC in just the last year alone, falling from around 0.06 Btc for 1 Eth, to around 0.03. An absolutely terrible comparative performance.

"if ETH truly follows security-like valuation principles, why has BTC—an asset with zero yield—outperformed most traditional ‘store of value’ assets in the last decade?" Now we are getting somewhere, for this is indeed the exact question you should be asking yourself.  This entire thread, and especially my comments, have attempted to answer that for you. But in summary, Eth is a capital asset. Btc is a store of value asset. Again, really think about that, and what it means for price - I have not give up hope on you Obsidian!

Griffith

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 10097
  • .......
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11860 on: February 05, 2025, 11:01:14 PM »
Interesting move.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/microstrategy-rebrands-strategy-bitcoin-inspired-191500833.html

MicroStrategy rebrands as Strategy with a Bitcoin-inspired logo

Bitcoin-maximalist and business intelligence firm MicroStrategy (MSTR) has rebranded as Strategy, unveiling a new identity centered around Bitcoin.The rebrand features a stylized “B” logo and adopts orange as its primary brand color, which the company says symbolizes energy, intelligence, and Bitcoin. With the rebrand, the company announced that Strategy is now “the world’s first and largest “Bitcoin Treasury Company.”



Thoughts on this?

Eric Balchunas on X:

'Here's data showing that the spot bitcoin ETFs and $MSTR to a lesser extent are basically solely responsible for btc's move out of the $30k post-SBF doghouse. I've theorized this in past, ppl got testy, but data shows its true.. via @HODL15Capital'




gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5262
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11861 on: February 05, 2025, 11:17:23 PM »
No doubt we are seeing far more buyers buying ETC via the ETF and MSTR. That should be obvious. No dispute there. Buyers tend to move to the easiest purchase method available, and for many these vehicles are more convenient.

What sometimes is forgotten, is that the ETFs and MSTR are made up of, and represent hundreds of thousands, if not millions of individual investors...

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11862 on: February 06, 2025, 12:47:05 AM »
Thoughts on this?

Eric Balchunas on X:

'Here's data showing that the spot bitcoin ETFs and $MSTR to a lesser extent are basically solely responsible for btc's move out of the $30k post-SBF doghouse. I've theorized this in past, ppl got testy, but data shows its true.. via @HODL15Capital'


That's an interesting stat Griffith! I'll look into it more.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11863 on: February 06, 2025, 12:50:40 AM »
Here's an interesting post by lead Ethereum developer Justin Drake. Some may dismiss this as BTC FUD. But, it is worth pondering:

https://x.com/drakefjustin/status/1887108667675124174

Since the merge, ETH is definitely scarcer than BTC. It's remarkable BTC supply grew 666K BTC, worth $66B, all while ETH supply stayed flat. Today BTC supply grows 0.83%/year, 66% faster than ETH. And for those looking ahead, as I explain below, ETH supply is poised to decrease again.



Scarcity is important, but ultimately the fight for internet money will likely be settled by security. Ironically, the famous 21M BTC cap is to blame. BTC issuance is going to zero—that's Bitcoin's strongest social contract. In a few halvings, issuance will be so small as to be irrelevant.

Here's a shocking stat: in the last 7 days only 1% of miner revenue came from Bitcoin fees. Yes, 99% came from issuance. And that's despite 4 halvings that reduced issuance by 16x, and despite 15 years of search for transactional utility on Bitcoin.

IMO the Bitcoin blockchain is cooked. It takes roughly $10B and access to 10GW to permanently 51% attack Bitcoin. The cost is peanuts for nation states. As for the power, Texas—a single state of a single country—can produce 80GW. The BTC security ratio is 200-to-1, it's a $2T asset secured by $10B of economic security.

Any shortable instrument correlated to BTC mining incentivises an 51% attack attack. There's $20B of Bitcoin mining stocks—those would insta-nuke. There's $40B of open interest on BTC perps—direct short exposure. Not to mention potential short exposure through the $100B in ETFs and the $100B in MSTR.

Will BitVM solve the fee problem? Any BitVM bridge is an incentive to 51% attack Bitcoin. Indeed, a 51% attacker can censor fraud proofs over the challenge period and drain BitVM bridges. Ironically, BitVM is arguably a direct attack on Bitcoin. And no, Bitcoin doesn't have social slashing to recover from 51% attacks.

What if the BTC price grows by 10x, flipping gold, is Bitcoin safe then? Let's say this happens in the next 11 years. BTC would be a $20T asset but issuance would shrink 8x because of the three halvings. The security ratio would grow beyond 1000-to-1. IMO this is untenable especially as BTC institutionalises, becomes more liquid, and ultimately become easier to short in size. Imagine $1T of perp open interest but just $10B of economic security.

Can Bitcoin somehow fix itself before it's too late? Bitcoin is the epitome of blockchain ossification. Can it have 1%/year tail issuance? Ha, good luck fighting the 21M cap! Maybe Bitcoin can switch to PoS and rely on minimal fees? PoS is sacrilege. Maybe Bitcoin can change to another PoW algorithm? Nope, that nuclear option won't help. Maybe Bitcoin can have big blocks and sell data availability at scale? Ser, a holy war was fought over small blocks.

If you made it this far and understood the above, congrats. Even today few appreciate how screwed Bitcoin PoW is long term and what the ramifications are for BTC the asset. This is a frontrunable opportunity but it requires patience. The time frame is not 1 month or even 1 year—it's 10 years.


There's a lot more in his post - very interesting!

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11864 on: February 06, 2025, 01:05:53 AM »
"if ETH truly follows security-like valuation principles, why has BTC—an asset with zero yield—outperformed most traditional ‘store of value’ assets in the last decade?" Now we are getting somewhere, for this is indeed the exact question you should be asking yourself.  This entire thread, and especially my comments, have attempted to answer that for you. But in summary, Eth is a capital asset. Btc is a store of value asset. Again, really think about that, and what it means for price - I have not give up hope on you Obsidian!
That’s a counterpoint to your argument that ETH should be valued like a security using traditional discounted cash flow (DCF) models because it has staking yield and revenue. The "gotcha" is that BTC has zero yield, zero cash flow, and no traditional valuation model, yet it has massively outperformed almost every other store-of-value asset, including gold, over the last decade.

So if your logic is that ETH is doomed because it's starting to be valued like a security, then why has BTC—an asset with none of the usual valuation metrics—become the best-performing store of value? If the market is so rational and valuation-driven, BTC shouldn't be where it is today.

This forces you into a corner: either you admit BTC's success contradicts your rigid valuation framework, or you have to concede that market forces in crypto don’t always follow traditional finance models.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11865 on: February 06, 2025, 01:11:20 AM »
Market - short term it's a voting machine, long term it's a weighing machine. (If you do not understand what that means, do a little research. Very important concept for any investor to understand).

Eth valuation - point is, that valuation metrics are not overly reliable, especially in the crypto space. For example, we don't really know how much Eth will be displaced by competitors, how much Eth transaction revenue will decline if Eth token prices rise, etc. But to be clear, my prediction is that BTC will continue to decline to BTC over time (for obvious reasons). The best we can do is make an educated guess, and chose the most likely of scenarios, discarding the more extreme outlying scenarios (except for max risk tolerance purposes). Short term is harder to predict, although you can see I have been continuously right as Eth fell around 50% to BTC in just the last year alone, falling from around 0.06 Btc for 1 Eth, to around 0.03. An absolutely terrible comparative performance.

"if ETH truly follows security-like valuation principles, why has BTC—an asset with zero yield—outperformed most traditional ‘store of value’ assets in the last decade?" Now we are getting somewhere, for this is indeed the exact question you should be asking yourself.  This entire thread, and especially my comments, have attempted to answer that for you. But in summary, Eth is a capital asset. Btc is a store of value asset. Again, really think about that, and what it means for price - I have not give up hope on you Obsidian!
You keep repeating that BTC is a store of value and ETH is a capital asset, but that alone doesn’t explain why BTC has succeeded despite lacking traditional valuation metrics. If market participants actually priced assets using DCF models like you suggest, BTC should have been ignored or dismissed entirely. Instead, it became the best-performing asset of the decade. That suggests market forces in crypto don’t adhere strictly to traditional valuation frameworks. Given that, why should ETH be an exception?

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5262
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11866 on: February 06, 2025, 08:34:51 AM »
That’s a counterpoint to your argument that ETH should be valued like a security using traditional discounted cash flow (DCF) models because it has staking yield and revenue. The "gotcha" is that BTC has zero yield, zero cash flow, and no traditional valuation model, yet it has massively outperformed almost every other store-of-value asset, including gold, over the last decade.

So if your logic is that ETH is doomed because it's starting to be valued like a security, then why has BTC—an asset with none of the usual valuation metrics—become the best-performing store of value? If the market is so rational and valuation-driven, BTC shouldn't be where it is today.

This forces you into a corner: either you admit BTC's success contradicts your rigid valuation framework, or you have to concede that market forces in crypto don’t always follow traditional finance models.

Obsidian - it blows my mind that you are asking these questions. Have we really been having this entire discussion without you understanding the core distinctions between "Bitcoin" and "Crypto"? Do you know what the phase "Bitcoin, not crypto" is intended to convey? Seriously???

Eth is a utility token. It is a stake in a project, where the token had value because of the utility it gives access to. Same with Filecoin, or UniSwap, or Solana, or ChainLink. The tokens in these projects derive their value from what they can purchase. (And in most cases, these tokens were issued in a manner akin to security stakes in a company - hence all the SEC scrutiny over them, vs BTC).

Let's say we have a venture where I offer bus services - and I in turn pay you as a shareholder not in cash, but in bus-tickets. It then becomes very easy to value the business. And when I initially launch the business, I seek an investment from you in cash, and give you an equivalent number of bus tickets in return for your investment in the company. Say it pays out 100,000 bus tickets to "shareholders" in a year from profits, and each ticket is worth $1. And say we value a typical bus business at a PE of 10. That then equates to a market cap of $1m for the business. And indeed, it would make no sense, in the long term, for the bus business to be worth 10m, or 100m, unless of there was somehow massive growth (10x or 100x) legitimately expected. In the long run no-one is going to pay me $10 or $100 for a bus ticket worth $1. In the short term, the market price could be irrational - maybe there is lots of excitement about the busses being upgraded to electric, or being painted pink, or whatever. And maybe we will see some people who are "bus ticket collectors" who are prepared to pay a premium for a ticket (we see this also with fiat currency - some people are prepared to pay a little more for a "collector's note"). But in general, over time, the business value will gravitate to the value of its output. That is why we can see a stock like GameStop bidded up to irrational levels in the short term, and why over time, it will gravitate back to fair value. And so, that is where we also are with ETH, and why (for obvious reasons), its market cap, and the price of its tokens, are falling over time. Initially Eth and other "projects" pretended to have something additional in terms of special technology that justified a valuation at a premium to their utility. That scam has long gone, and the market has degenerated entirely to meme's, which essentially is an acceptance that the entire pitch of a "crypto" having some special value due to technical features was a load of BS all along. It should be very obvious now, that the entire "crypto" space is one of a pump and dump circus casino, where in the long run only the issuers and the exchanges win. (And if you are neither of these, then you are the sucker who is being scammed, whether you know it yet or not).

Next you ask about BTC having no yield, and therefore how it can have value. And that is the whole point - BTC is a store of value asset. It is the hardest, and most superior form of money there is. That is what the market is saying, and that is why BTC has a market cap of around 2 Trillion, vs Eth at 350 Billion (along with an infinite number of other alts). Before that we had gold (also zero yield) vs equities (which do have a yield). It was for this reason that Buffett was so against gold (and now BTC) as an investment - the absence of yield means the asset cannot have any intrinsic value. Hence its only value comes from demand, and the demand for a perfect store of value of global wealth happens to be MASSIVE. BTC's "yield" essentially the gain in value it provides, due to its ability to offset devaluation in fiat currencies.

Eth was promoted in a way which tricked the initial buyers into believing that it could be both a store of value (like BTC), "only better" as it also a utility token at the same time. Many of us laughed at this from the outset, and knew it was nonsense, but, especially during the initial crypto frienzie, many investors really believed this pitch, non-sensical and illogical as it is. That of course has now long been debunked, and ever since the qualities of Eth have been better understood by the market, Eth became valued (along with every other alt) more and more based on the utility it provides, hence its ongoing price divergence to BTC. BTC on the other hand is valued on the money it absorbs, as that is the most important utility feature it's unique characteristics provide.

This is really such a fundamental concept, and if you don't get this, you really do not at all have even the core foundation to understand this space. And I don't mean to say this in a demeaning way - I really believe this lack of understanding may explain your current mindset. Again it blows my mind, but I also believe there others of the GameStop / Wall St bets generation, who also still really don't get this. I didn't picture in this category, but I think I was mistaken. I just didn't pick up on this until now.

Please go and do a little research. Watch the "Eth is going to zero" video I posted a while back. Understand what we mean when we say "Bitcoin, not crypto". Again, it is FUNDAMENTAL, to any "crypto investor" that they understand this concept and the key distinction between BTC and "alts". If you don't, you honestly are pretty much mortally handicapped as an investor right from the very outset.

A video which might explain (and again, do also watch the Eth to zero video).



obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11867 on: February 06, 2025, 02:08:19 PM »
Obsidian - it blows my mind that you are asking these questions. Have we really been having this entire discussion without you understanding the core distinctions between "Bitcoin" and "Crypto"? Do you know what the phase "Bitcoin, not crypto" is intended to convey? Seriously???

Eth is a utility token. It is a stake in a project, where the token had value because of the utility it gives access to. Same with Filecoin, or UniSwap, or Solana, or ChainLink. The tokens in these projects derive their value from what they can purchase. (And in most cases, these tokens were issued in a manner akin to security stakes in a company - hence all the SEC scrutiny over them, vs BTC).

Let's say we have a venture where I offer bus services - and I in turn pay you as a shareholder not in cash, but in bus-tickets. It then becomes very easy to value the business. And when I initially launch the business, I seek an investment from you in cash, and give you an equivalent number of bus tickets in return for your investment in the company. Say it pays out 100,000 bus tickets to "shareholders" in a year from profits, and each ticket is worth $1. And say we value a typical bus business at a PE of 10. That then equates to a market cap of $1m for the business. And indeed, it would make no sense, in the long term, for the bus business to be worth 10m, or 100m, unless of there was somehow massive growth (10x or 100x) legitimately expected. In the long run no-one is going to pay me $10 or $100 for a bus ticket worth $1. In the short term, the market price could be irrational - maybe there is lots of excitement about the busses being upgraded to electric, or being painted pink, or whatever. And maybe we will see some people who are "bus ticket collectors" who are prepared to pay a premium for a ticket (we see this also with fiat currency - some people are prepared to pay a little more for a "collector's note"). But in general, over time, the business value will gravitate to the value of its output. That is why we can see a stock like GameStop bidded up to irrational levels in the short term, and why over time, it will gravitate back to fair value. And so, that is where we also are with ETH, and why (for obvious reasons), its market cap, and the price of its tokens, are falling over time. Initially Eth and other "projects" pretended to have something additional in terms of special technology that justified a valuation at a premium to their utility. That scam has long gone, and the market has degenerated entirely to meme's, which essentially is an acceptance that the entire pitch of a "crypto" having some special value due to technical features was a load of BS all along. It should be very obvious now, that the entire "crypto" space is one of a pump and dump circus casino, where in the long run only the issuers and the exchanges win. (And if you are neither of these, then you are the sucker who is being scammed, whether you know it yet or not).

Next you ask about BTC having no yield, and therefore how it can have value. And that is the whole point - BTC is a store of value asset. It is the hardest, and most superior form of money there is. That is what the market is saying, and that is why BTC has a market cap of around 2 Trillion, vs Eth at 350 Billion (along with an infinite number of other alts). Before that we had gold (also zero yield) vs equities (which do have a yield). It was for this reason that Buffett was so against gold (and now BTC) as an investment - the absence of yield means the asset cannot have any intrinsic value. Hence its only value comes from demand, and the demand for a perfect store of value of global wealth happens to be MASSIVE. BTC's "yield" essentially the gain in value it provides, due to its ability to offset devaluation in fiat currencies.

Eth was promoted in a way which tricked the initial buyers into believing that it could be both a store of value (like BTC), "only better" as it also a utility token at the same time. Many of us laughed at this from the outset, and knew it was nonsense, but, especially during the initial crypto frienzie, many investors really believed this pitch, non-sensical and illogical as it is. That of course has now long been debunked, and ever since the qualities of Eth have been better understood by the market, Eth became valued (along with every other alt) more and more based on the utility it provides, hence its ongoing price divergence to BTC. BTC on the other hand is valued on the money it absorbs, as that is the most important utility feature it's unique characteristics provide.

This is really such a fundamental concept, and if you don't get this, you really do not at all have even the core foundation to understand this space. And I don't mean to say this in a demeaning way - I really believe this lack of understanding may explain your current mindset. Again it blows my mind, but I also believe there others of the GameStop / Wall St bets generation, who also still really don't get this. I didn't picture in this category, but I think I was mistaken. I just didn't pick up on this until now.

Please go and do a little research. Watch the "Eth is going to zero" video I posted a while back. Understand what we mean when we say "Bitcoin, not crypto". Again, it is FUNDAMENTAL, to any "crypto investor" that they understand this concept and the key distinction between BTC and "alts". If you don't, you honestly are pretty much mortally handicapped as an investor right from the very outset.

A video which might explain (and again, do also watch the Eth to zero video).


I get where you're coming from, but there are major flaws in your argument.

First, your bus ticket analogy oversimplifies Ethereum’s value proposition. ETH is not just a utility token used to pay for transactions—it’s also an economic security mechanism. Staked ETH secures the network, and validators earn fees, meaning ETH holders can derive yield from the protocol itself. That’s fundamentally different from a simple "bus ticket" system.

You argue that Ethereum was falsely presented as both a store of value and a utility asset—but why can’t it be both? Traditional assets often serve multiple roles. Gold is a store of value but also has industrial utility. Apple stock is an investment but also gives governance rights. The idea that ETH must be strictly one thing or the other is a false binary.

Now, let’s talk about BTC’s valuation. You say Bitcoin’s value comes from being the hardest form of money, but that alone doesn’t justify its $2T market cap. If BTC is purely a store of value, its price still depends entirely on demand, just like gold (which has significantly more history as a store of value). Yet, BTC has dramatically outperformed gold. Why? If Bitcoin’s primary function is storing wealth, what gives it the unique ability to accrue value at such a higher rate than other non-yielding assets?

Bitcoin’s market value is still speculative—it grows because people expect more adoption and demand in the future, which is no different from how Ethereum’s price is influenced by network activity and usage. You dismiss ETH’s role in decentralized finance, staking, and security, yet you’re okay with BTC’s valuation being based on faith that people will keep storing value in it indefinitely?

At the end of the day, both BTC and ETH derive their value from market consensus—BTC from its role as digital gold, and ETH from its utility in a decentralized financial ecosystem. Pretending Bitcoin is completely separate from "crypto" ignores the fact that it also shares speculative and network-driven value dynamics with everything else in the space.

So, I get the "Bitcoin, not crypto" mentality, but it’s not as airtight as you make it seem. If you really believe BTC is superior, you should be able to defend its value proposition without needing to misrepresent what Ethereum actually does.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11868 on: February 06, 2025, 02:15:42 PM »

From a channel called "Simply Bitcoin". Hello, Echo Chamber!

Yes Bitcoin currently dominates the crypto market cap. It is not a given that it will remain that way.

What's your response to Justin Drake's comment that the BTC security ratio is 200-to-1, a $2T asset secured by $10B of economic security?

Quote
IMO the Bitcoin blockchain is cooked. It takes roughly $10B and access to 10GW to permanently 51% attack Bitcoin. The cost is peanuts for nation states. As for the power, Texas—a single state of a single country—can produce 80GW. The BTC security ratio is 200-to-1, it's a $2T asset secured by $10B of economic security.

ETH's security ratio is much better IMO. It has a higher economic security on a smaller market cap!


obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11870 on: February 07, 2025, 05:20:59 PM »
Hopium?!


SouJerz

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11871 on: February 07, 2025, 06:12:37 PM »
Wow the human psyche is a terrible thing to taste

Mayday

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3112
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11872 on: February 07, 2025, 10:14:01 PM »
Hopium?!




The problem ETH faces is layer 2 degeneracy. Layer 2s soaking up the inbound capital.

1M tokens created each week. They kill the network. I warned of this years ago and everyone laughed at me.

You have to wait for Vitalik to make a change to the network.

gib

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5262
  • Getbig!
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11873 on: February 08, 2025, 04:04:28 AM »

1M tokens created each week.

Yep - That's the risk you take when you dabble in shitcoinery, and don't understand what "Bitcoin, not crypto" means. There was a guy around half a year on this thread who got so angry at me for pointing how alts will not in the long term outperform BTC, and explaining why Eth and other alts are securities. He cited all sorts of alts he held which "went up" as some kind of "defence" to the points I was making. He's all quiet now. As I said at the time, "lessons will be learned". And now, I suspect indeed they were...

If you dabble in shitcoinery with a hope of trying to outperform BTC, in the hope that in the end you will have more BTC than if you had just bought and hodled BTC from the outset - that is a very dangerous game, and you are kidding yourself if you think you can reliably do this...

We have BTC going to USD 1m. Opportunity to set yourself up for life if you just stack and chill - and still, there are fools who think "alts" are the road to acquiring more BTC or instant wealth. Its insane, and I am not sure whether to feel sorry for this people, or whether I should continue to try to warn and educate.

obsidian

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 8529
Re: Bitcoins - about to hit $5,000 per coin today!
« Reply #11874 on: February 08, 2025, 12:13:21 PM »

The problem ETH faces is layer 2 degeneracy. Layer 2s soaking up the inbound capital.

1M tokens created each week. They kill the network. I warned of this years ago and everyone laughed at me.

You have to wait for Vitalik to make a change to the network.
The 1M tokens are mostly coming out on Solana. Vitalik has nothing to do with that.

Ethereum's goal is to remain decentralized and allow validators to run on reasonable hardware and bandwidth, with reasonable storage requirements. Solana is designed to run of enterprise hardware. The chain is over 300TB large. You can't run that on home hardware. I have a big ass NAS with (18) 12 TB drives and the Solana chain won't even fit on that. Solana needs 10 gigabit connections to run. That prevents it from being decentralized. It can only be centralized. How many people have 10 gigabit connections?

Meanwhile, you can run Ethereum validators on a Raspberry PI. And they are working on allowing cellphones to become validators.

Decentralization is important because it makes the system more robust against attacks. This is why banks and Sony are deploying on Ethereum L2s. It does not go offline like Solana, the L2s inherit Ethereum's L1 security, and they can at least have some control over their L2. If they try to deploy on Solana L1 they lose that control and they have to count on transactions failures if the latest MEME coin launches.

Here's a post on Reddit that explains why the ETH L1 was not scaled because of the preference for decentralization:

Quote
It always was and still is the goal to scale the L1, but scaling the L1 is more difficult than scaling through rollups, so it takes more time. If you would have increased the L1 throughput by 4-8 times many years ago we would have had the following issues.

State and history size: We would be in the range of 4-12 TB of disk usage. Not that easy to find good nvme ssds in that size range. Until 8 TB there are options, but only recently there are consumer options. If you need to go above 8 TB there are only server grade ones and they cost an arm and a leg.

SSD speed: Already nowadays you need good ssds to have a good attestation efficiency. With state being 4-8 times bigger you probably need some of the best ones out there, or even store most of the state in RAM like solana is doing. Not cheap to build a machine like that.

CPU usage. With a small state and the current number of transactions per block we can easily validate a block within the few seconds we have. If you increase the block size the validation time jumps linearly at first and when the state size grows over time the validation time grows superlinear in the long term. Just a few years ago we could not handle that. Nowadays a mainnet block takes a few hundred milliseconds to validate on consumer hardware so we could easily increase it maybe by a factor of 2-4 at the moment by just looking at CPU usage.

Bandwidth: That is the most difficult one to judge. We already know that 10Mbps upload speeds have issues publishing self built blocks. Currently even in the developed world huge parts have upload speeds of 20Mbps-30Mbps, so there is a limit how much you can grow a block before you hit that limit.

All these factors together limit the scope of how much you can scale L1 while still keeping the chain decentralized in the sense that home stakers can participate. Sure, we could go the server chain route and Polygon POS and Binance smart chain have shown that you can easily increase throughput by an order of magnitude if you do that. but Ethereum wants to be the global and neutral settlement layer so it takes decentralization and resilience road instead short term maximum throughput road. If a chain cannot be validated by a large group of unsophisticated actors anymore it becomes a chain that you have to trust intermediaries to not take your wealth from you.

So, realistically we can probably safely increase the block size after pectra by a factor of 2, if you are adventurous a large factor is possible, but we probably better wait for upgrades which tackle the problems above.