Author Topic: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??  (Read 11232 times)

CC3

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Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« on: February 28, 2006, 01:58:47 PM »
It seems like a lot of people here read MD, so I'm sure at least a few saw this little bit of news.  I thought it would be great to bring on here for a discussion.  It concerns gene doping, the supposed heir apparent to steroids in the world of sports and bodybuilding.

We all know about the MyoStat supplement disaster of a few years back.  While the science behind the stuff seemed solid, the bottom line is that the stuff didn't work, plain and simple.  Apparently, however, there is a new drug, ACVRB2, that can legitimately suppress the myostatin gene and lead to muscle gains in as little as two weeks.

Here's my question: if this could wipe steroids/GH completely out of the sport and still allow users to reach new heights with their physiques while staying healthy and maintaining a thin waste line, would you like to see it?  Or would you still rather drugs just not be a part of the sport at all? 

I'll save my response for another post, this is getting kind of long...


CC3

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2006, 02:08:25 PM »
I'm kind of straddling the fence here.  I've always had a problem with the ridiculous amounts of GH and steroids that have become so prominent in BB since the 80's, but not because of moral issues or feeling like I'm above people who do that (who is anyone, especially me, to judge what another person does?).  I just don't care for the drugs because a) it's simply not healthy at the dosages being used these days, and b) most of the pros just don't look aesthetically pleasing with the GH guts, and synth delts, biceps, calves, etc.

At the same time, who's to say this couldn't get ridiculously out of control?  Steroids seemed innocent enough when they were first introduced back in the 50's, when people were still using fairly sane dosages (for the sake of this discussion, I'm just talking about BBers here; I'm not even going to get into the Russian and East German Olympic teams).  Now look where we are.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I doubt one person truly likes drugs being a part of the sport, even the ones who use.  I know they do it because if they want to survive in the game, they have to, but I imagine many look back thinking "Wow I started doing this because I wanted to look good, I never knew I was going to start competing and it would get this far..." but they had already invested so much time in BBing that there's no way they could turn back at that point.  All the while their bodies are falling apart on the inside...

I have no clue how gene doping works, but if it allowed BBers to completely cut out the use of steroids/GH/slin, etc. and still stay healthy, then I'd be all for it.  Anyone know something I don't?  Does gene doping have any known major drawbacks?  I guess no one can say for sure, as it's such a new science and it hasn't been possible to research over long periods of time (i.e. decades) yet.

Anyway, just throwing it out there.  I know it's long, but I find the issue very intriguing.

Scimowser

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2006, 02:10:38 PM »
sounds interesting, but there has to be solid testing and conclusive scientific data to back up every angle of the claim. Samir Bannout once said that if you eliminate all the drugs from BBing then the champion will remain the champion regardless
Scouser on Tour

CC3

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2006, 02:11:25 PM »
If you read it in a bodybuilding magazin, it's BULLSHIT.

Hmm, while I'm inclined to believe you, I do know that gene doping is a science that is making leaps and bounds by the day, and it would not surprise me if the story turned out to have some merit.

Either way, though, just give it some thought.  Entertain the idea as a hypothetical situation and it still makes for a very interesting discussion...

CC3

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2006, 02:15:17 PM »
sounds interesting, but there has to be solid testing and conclusive scientific data to back up every angle of the claim. Samir Bannout once said that if you eliminate all the drugs from BBing then the champion will remain the champion regardless

Interesting quote (or paraphrase I guess I should say).  I think Samir makes a valid point.  The problem is that the lines have become so blurred because of the drugs.  I think there are a lot of people out there who would name a lot of pros who they think have a better physique than Ronnie's, yet the judging has become so blinded by the quest for mass and the drug use in the sport that they continue to reward him every year...

I dare say without the drugs, Ronnie would not be winning every year, but I could be completely wrong.

CC3

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2006, 02:33:57 PM »
Billy Carp posted some interesting info on Myostatin: http://www.boom7.com/index.php?topic=142.0

Cool, thanks for the link  :)

I'm going to paste and link what garraeth wrote on that link just in case anyone is interested in any of the science behind this stuff.  I took the liberty of bolding some of the more interesting stuff; hope you don't mind garraeth:

Quote from: garraeth
Another, more recent (Dec 19 2005), article:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,20909-1938951,00.html
This one names the compound they injected: "Twice-weekly injections of ACVR2B prompted the mice’s muscles to grow by 60 per cent."

ACVR2B info:
http://bin.exactantigen.com/ea.pl?cmd=show_wp&md=ab&gd=93

And if you can figure it out, here's where you can actually BUY the stuff ("Homo sapiens activin A receptor, type IIB (ACVR2B)"): http://www.origene.com/cdna/trueclone/accession/NM_001106/TC119435.aspx
Looks like you have to have an account with them to see pricing and/or make a purchase...doubt I can get an account

Nother one about ACVR2B (Dec 9 2005): http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/view.article.php?ArticleID=22096
"“This new inhibitor of myostatin, known as ACVR2B, is very potent and gives very dramatic effects in the mice,” says Se-Jin Lee, M.D., Ph.D., a professor of molecular biology and genetics in Johns Hopkins’ Institute for Basic Biomedical Sciences. “Its effects were larger and faster than we’ve seen with any other agent, and they were even larger than we expected.”"
and
"After five injections over four weeks, mighty mice injected with the new agent had muscles 24 percent larger than their counterparts that didn’t get the new agent."

pretty kewl  ;D

mame09

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2006, 01:03:51 AM »
if this drug works nd bb use it say good buy to bb. because its not already popular in mainstream socitey wit 280 pound bb then just imagine seeing a 400pound bb.

it doesnt matter if they keep their small waists because people outside are to dumb to realise that a small waist looks better than a wide waist

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2006, 01:16:44 AM »
have heard from a couple of pro's big ron has already been using these myostatin inhibitors.

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2006, 07:19:52 AM »
Anabolic drugs have many other benefits than simply increasing muscle size. They increase energy,Healing time,Motivation,Since they increase Testosterone levels many other benefits come from that than simple muscle gains. Anabolic Effects range and vary.

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2006, 07:29:59 AM »
Billy Carp posted some interesting info on Myostatin: http://www.boom7.com/index.php?topic=142.0

RIP Billy Carp.

CC3

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2006, 05:18:10 PM »
Anabolic drugs have many other benefits than simply increasing muscle size. They increase energy,Healing time,Motivation,Since they increase Testosterone levels many other benefits come from that than simple muscle gains. Anabolic Effects range and vary.

That is a very good point, Johnny, and I have brought this up on numerous occasions on other boards where people say ignorant stuff like "There's no way that guy could be on steroids, he's not big enough..."  All I can do is just slap my forehead.

But I wonder, if scientists can find ways to manipulate muscle growth, is it only a matter of time before they can manipulate genes for recovery, ATP synthesis (energy), DNA/RNA transcription factors (protein utilization), psychological chemical levels in the brain (motivation?)...?

I mean, we know they now have the entire human genome mapped...now's just the question of what exactly they can do with it...

Dnizneer

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2006, 06:13:08 PM »
If you want to get big , get injected by a black or samoan guy. And not in a nice way.

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2006, 06:35:59 PM »
Steroids seemed innocent enough when they were first introduced back in the 50's, when people were still using fairly sane dosages.

It might seem innocent now, but they didn't see it that way at the time.  All the magazines expressed outrage at the one or two bodybuilder that they heard might have used such tissue drugs (even though the mags knew how widespread it was).  An all the top bodybuilders denied ever touching the stuff.   This continued from the 1950s to well into the 1990s.   In fact, I'd say if it wasn't for the internet being an alternate source of information, the magazines probably would still be pretending that only a few bodybuilders have ever touched the stuff.

CC3

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2006, 07:15:39 PM »
It might seem innocent now, but they didn't see it that way at the time.  All the magazines expressed outrage at the one or two bodybuilder that they heard might have used such tissue drugs (even though the mags knew how widespread it was).  An all the top bodybuilders denied ever touching the stuff.   This continued from the 1950s to well into the 1990s.   In fact, I'd say if it wasn't for the internet being an alternate source of information, the magazines probably would still be pretending that only a few bodybuilders have ever touched the stuff.

Thanks for the insight, Tim, I had never heard the mags took a stand like that.  That's interesting to know.  You also make a very good point about steroids becoming more widely accepted and mainstream now because of the 'net.

However, I wasn't talking about the drugs from the standpoint of public perception.  When I said "innocent enough", I was strictly speaking about the health concerns; as in, scientists and users weren't aware of the havoc they could wreak on the human body at the time they were introduced.

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2006, 10:10:09 AM »
Steroids are hardly "Widely accepted in the mainstream". If any of you have seen any of the news programs about them or googled news "Steroids" and seen that the DEA are busting innocent steroid users and dealers on a weekly basis you'd take that back.

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2006, 10:11:31 AM »
They will not get us down John.

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2006, 10:44:10 AM »
if this shit really existed we would be aware of it...

And if it exists, the army would already be using it to create super soldiers able to carry exoskeletonal armors.


all we know currently is that some people said their fucking "mouses" developped 6000000% more muscle mass than normal mouses....gimme a break.

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2006, 11:27:07 AM »
somebody please try this stuff and tell us if it works

btw I wouldn't doubt that people are already using this drug or similar variants.

Johnny Apollo

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2006, 12:12:43 PM »
if this shit really existed we would be aware of it...
And if it exists, the army would already be using it to create super soldiers able to carry exoskeletonal armors.
all we know currently is that some people said their fucking "mouses" developped 6000000% more muscle mass than normal mouses....gimme a break.

Plural is "mice".

CC3

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2006, 02:13:15 PM »
Steroids are hardly "Widely accepted in the mainstream". If any of you have seen any of the news programs about them or googled news "Steroids" and seen that the DEA are busting innocent steroid users and dealers on a weekly basis you'd take that back.

I meant that they are more widely accepted and mainstream within the bodybuilding community, and I'm sure that's what Tim was alluding to as well.  If you re-read what I typed, I never said "Widely accepted in the mainstream" (I realize that's getting down to semantics, but I just want to be sure that what I was saying is understood in the way it was meant to be).

My point was that everyone within the community knows that steroids are part of of "the game" and that, in the current state of affairs, if you want to succeed you have to dip into the sauce.  Sure, people who are ignorant of BBing and supplement science still think that steroids are evil (i.e. the media, the DEA, etc.).  Most who have any sense, however, know that steroids in themselves aren't bad; it's the dosages that BBers have been pushed to take in order to succeed that are to blame.

So, yes, to a certain extent, they are more accepted and mainstream now.  And, no, I don't take back what I said.

To address a few other comments:
- I don't think any casual BBers will be trying this stuff out anytime soon.  The price of getting your hands on some technology like this probably makes GH cost look like chump change.

- If you think it's not real, fine that's your prerogative; you may even be right.  There's certainly been no conclusive human evidence in vivo that would refute that.  But, as I said above, even if it were I doubt we'll be seeing it used to create any "super soldiers" any time soon.  Sounds great for video games and the movies, but in real life there's a little thing called "money and research" that gets in the way before something can be widely distributed (just look at how long it takes a new pharmaceutical drug to get patented) for sale...

Taking these things into account, I didn't start this discussion with the notion that this stuff is going to be available anytime soon; we're several years, if not decades, away from gene therapy being used on a widescale level.  I just thought it was something that would be fun to kick around a bit in a hypothetical situation, and more the point, to ask if you as a bodybuilding fan would have a problem with it.

The Luke

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2006, 02:24:54 PM »
Just recently, a fairly indepth thread developed here on GetBig about the super muscled German five-year-old who has been identified as being almost completely myostatin deficient. A couple of the guys asked me to explain the sciencey bit in layman's terms, so I did, and added in a few of the unsubstantiated rumours for titillation purposes.
My big epic post is copied below, enjoy:
(the original thread is:http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=40799.0 )
*******************************************************************************
Okay, okay...
Here's the backroom gossip on myostatin:
Background...
For those who don't have any science edu-macation (considering how it's taught in schools these days I wouldn't be surprised if that's most of those reading), we'll start with the basics of genetics. Feel free to skip ahead if you already know this, for the rest of you I'll try to adhere to the tenet by being both witty and brief.
The human body is built (mostly) of proteins, these proteins are manufactured within the individual cells. The proteins are assembled from amino acids, think of little molecular letters being strung together to make words. There are only four DNA bases (rudimentary amino acids), they are adenine (A), thymine (T), guanine (G) and cytosine (C). All human DNA is composed of these four bases. That's why that Ethan Hawk sci-fi movie about genetic engineering was called Gattaca.
Get it?
Gattaca = G A T T A C A          G       A       T       T       A       C        A          guanine adenine thymine thymine adenine cytosine adenine             ...it's a gene sequence!!
DNA is a two stranded molecule complex, a string of ATCG's linked to another string of ATCG's and held together by a big ribose sugar.
For example, a string of DNA can be represented by just the data in the strands
A-T
C-G
G-C
C-G
T-A
A-T
C-G
G-C
T-A 
Adenine always bonds to thymine (A-T and T-A), cytosine always bonds to guanine (C-G and G-C) so if the strand splits...
A-                       -T
C-                       -G
G-                       -C
C-                       -G
T-                        -A
A-                        -T
C-                        -G
G-                        -C
T-                        -A
...then free floating bases (un-paired adenine, thymine, cytosine and guanine molecules) bond up to the strands...
A-T                       -T
C-                      C-G
G-                         -C
C-G                       -G
T-                         -A
A-                       A-T
C-                         -G
G-C                       -C
T-                          -A
...pretty soon you get...
A-T                      A-T
C-G                     C-G
G-C                     G-C
C-G                     C-G
T-A                      T-A
A-T                      A-T
C-G                     C-G
G-C                     G-C
T-A                      T-A
...TWO PERFECT COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL STRAND.
This is basically what happens in sexual reproduction. You get half of your Dad's chromosomes (bundles of multi-billion digit strands), and half of your Mum's chromosomes. The 23 chromosomes from your Dad team up with their opposite numbers from your Mum to form 23 chromosome pairs (46 chromosomes total).
It's the pairs that then set about producing all the relevant proteins, (and organs, limbs, bones etc) making a new individual.
For example, one of the pairs is responsible for gender. Your Mum has an XX pair, (two X chromosomes, so called because they look like... well... an X), so she'll pass on either one of these X chromosomes.
So you get an X sex chromosome from your Mum.
Your Dad has an XY pair for a sex chromosome (guess what the Y chromosme looks like under the microscope! Biologists have NO sense of humour) so he'll pass on either an X or a Y sex chromosome. (when his chromosome pairs are split up to make 23 chromosome cells: sperm)
Hence the Baby gets an X from the Mum and either an X or a Y from the Dad.
An XX sex chromosome pair (like the mothers) will produce a female baby, an XY pair (like the fathers) will produce a male baby.
However, and this is where things start to get interesting. The splitting of the chromosme pairs isn't always perfect... somethimes deletions or double ups can happen. With the sex chromosome you could possibly get:
XX normal healthy female
XY normal healthy male
X a slightly less fertile female with male personality traits
XYY hyper male, higher testosterone and very aggressive, three times more likely to commit murder and disproportionately abundant in the populations of maximum security prisons.
XYYY super male, supposedly taller, larger, more intelligent men with an increased statistical tendency to be paedophiles.
XXYY very little information available, but much more likely to be born with ambiguous genitalia or even hemaphroditic
XXXYY sometimes male, sometimes female, sometimes intersex but usually homosexual or transexual.    ...interesting eh?
THE MYOSTATIN BIT
In the early nineties genetics labs around the world started picking a gene (a string of three bases such as ACG or GAT) at random and simply cutting it out. But seeing as 90% of DNA in most animals (including humans) is simply inactive junk... the experiments seldom  did anything unusual in the altered animals. After all, they were only changing one-hundred-millionth of one strand in one chromosome in one of the chromosome pairs.
That is until until someone produced wasps with extra legs growing out of their eyeballs.
The first Hocks gene had been found!
Out of the 5 billion-odd genes in the human genome, only about 20,000 are active. How could only 20,000 genes describe all the blueprints for something as complex as a human being and all the biochemical systems it involves?
The answer: some of the genes (Hock's genes) act as master control switches activating and more importantly de-activating other genes and controling how the active genes interact with the inactive junk DNA.
Hence the same genes that grow gills in fish can be modultated by the affect of Hocks genes to produce lungs in human beings. Amazing eh??
One of these master genes (called Myostatin) controls the distribution of muscle tissue. When scientists removed the gene from mice they expected to produce mice with absolutely NO muscle tisue. But instead of Skeletor mice they got He-man mice, three times the weight of a normal mouse, 5% bodyfat instead of 20% and rippling with muscles.
It seems the foetus doesn't just grow muscle tissue when it's developing, it has to be told when to STOP producing muscle.
But here is the problem, no one is quite sure how this gene is expressed.
-Does it set other genes into effect during foetal development. Does it tell the foetus when there are enough muscle cells in the meso-layer thereby producing individuals with increased (but fixed) numbers of muscle cells when it's absent?
-does it tell muscle cells when to stop splitting into more muscle cells? A process known as hyperplasia (it doesn't seem to happen in humans, normal humans).
-does it produce an intra-cellular hormone that regulates/halts muscle growth?
-does it desensitise hormone receptors on muscle cells? No myostatin and the muscles become more and more sensitive to the effects of GH, IGF-1 or insulin?
As you can see it all gets very complicated very quickly...
We do have a few hints:
*the He-man mice were odd in other ways. They had a poor metabolic response to exercise and were so timid that normal mice in the same cage literally ATE THEM ALIVE!! Meaning the absence of myostatin could have neurological effects.
*no major internal abnormalities/pathologies have been noted (nothing that couldn't be explained by the increase in bodyweight) raising doubts that myostatin only has effects within the womb, if it did then we could expect some developmental disorders.
(for example: Proteus syndrome, a gene halting skeletal formation is damaged/missing and those double recessive for the gene are characterised by extra long big toes. However every time a Proteus sufferer bruises themselves, the bruised muscle calcifies to form a bone because the skeletal formation system has not been turned off.)
*another Hocks gene removed from mice produced abnormally fat mice with huge appetites. This gene was called Leptin and was hailed as the Holy Grail of obesity research when it turned out to be a hither-to-unknown hormone. No leptin equals fat ass mice, extra leptin lowered the mice's appetites and bodyfat levels. Unfortunately it didn't work in adult humans till your bodyfat levels were already under 5%.
I would hazard a guess that myostatin turns out to be the same deal as leptin: it's biggest effects will happen in the womb and people taking anti-myostatin will have pumped muscles that are two weak to be trained, or will notice no difference at all.
Either way, Dorian-abol is probably never going to happen.
Now here is where we enter the Twillight Zone:
According to reliable reports this German Myostatin deficient five-year-old (both his parents are mono-recessive for a damaged version of the gene) is perfectly normal except for his muscle size.
BUT the same reports are at pains to withold the identity of the family, and the authors gloss over the fact that the boy is about EIGHT TIMES STRONGER than children his own age pointing out that this ratio will probably decrease with age till he is only 150% as strong as other adults when fully grown. He is tall for his age but nothing out of the ordinary.
The family involved have an ironclad legal arrangement with the doctor who is doing the research and will never be identified without their consent. ALL the details of of the published research must be cleared with the family first. NO OTHER medical experts have examined the boy.
The boys school hired a helper to patrol the schoolyard, (follow monster boy around without getting close enough tomake it obvious) after the myostatin kid picked up and threw one of his class mates.
***** EVERYTHING WRITTEN BELOW IS COMPLETELY UNSUBSTANTIATED *****
The RUMOUR (and this is only a rumour) in the genetics community is that all this excessive secrecy is warranted because the there is no sign of the boys growth spurt slowing down. Apparently there is every chance that the estimated 220-240 lbs adult weight is a lie.
A few geneticists interested in the case have reported that should his growth pattern continue (there's no way to tell if it's a growth spurt or the normal growth pattern for someone with his condition) he will probably weigh 450-600 lbs with 5-8 % bodyfat AT EIGHT FEET TALL when fully grown. One geneticist claimed an adult size of 200 lbs at five foot is more likely, while another disputed the eight foot claim saying seven foot was more realistic... seven foot AND 800-1,100 lbs!!!
But all of this is only speculation, it's the conspiracy theories that are more interesting.
The child's face has never been shown in a photo, not even in the photos taken of him as a baby. Neither have his arms... leading to the claim that the child has splayed legs, an unusual pelvis structure, enlarged joints, thick bones, a bell shaped rib cage, an enlarged jaw/dental structure, robust features (deep-set eyes and a heavy brow ridge) along with an unusual forearm to upper arm ratio. Does any of this ring a bell with anyone... ever heard a description of a Neanderthal??
If a four year-old can hold 15lb dumbbells at arms length in a crucifix position for 10 minutes... is it so far beyond the realms of possibility that he's a throwback... missing the gene that separated us from proto-European cavemen 30,000 years ago??
But then again, sparse evidence often breeds wild theories...
It has been hinted that the German government has already made arrangements to put the family into hiding should the need arise. Sound planning to some, but to the adherents of conspiracy theory it lends credence to the wildest claims: that the boy had his whole body electrolysed to remove excessive body hair and has distinctly simian features. Big hands, long arms and REALLY, REALLY BIG FEET!!! INCLUDING A HINGED FOOT WITH A META-TARSAL BREAK!!
Maybe he'd be more at home in the forests of Northern California.
Of course that is just totally crazy... isn't it??
Isn't it??
The Luke
PS- all you guys owe me five bucks.

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2006, 02:30:41 PM »
I got one word for all those mice,cow pictures....
SYNTHOL
Giving 110%

CC3

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2006, 02:39:34 PM »
Awesome post, Luke; thanks for that.  I was already somewhat acquainted with the science behind DNA composition and the "big four" of human DNA from experiments we conducted in Biology Lab.  But you're post really digs into it.  Interesting stuff.

Johnny Apollo

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2006, 02:48:00 PM »
Just recently, a fairly indepth thread developed here on GetBig about the super muscled German five-year-old who has been identified as being almost completely myostatin deficient. A couple of the guys asked me to explain the sciencey bit in layman's terms, so I did, and added in a few of the unsubstantiated rumours for titillation purposes.
My big epic post is copied below, enjoy:
(the original thread is:http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=40799.0 )
*******************************************************************************
Okay, okay...
Here's the backroom gossip on myostatin:
Background...
For those who don't have any science edu-macation (considering how it's taught in schools these days I wouldn't be surprised if that's most of those reading), we'll start with the basics of genetics. Feel free to skip ahead if you already know this, for the rest of you I'll try to adhere to the tenet by being both witty and brief.
The human body is built (mostly) of proteins, these proteins are manufactured within the individual cells. The proteins are assembled from amino acids, think of little molecular letters being strung together to make words. There are only four DNA bases (rudimentary amino acids), they are adenine (A), thymine (T), guanine (G) and cytosine (C). All human DNA is composed of these four bases. That's why that Ethan Hawk sci-fi movie about genetic engineering was called Gattaca.
Get it?
Gattaca = G A T T A C A          G       A       T       T       A       C        A          guanine adenine thymine thymine adenine cytosine adenine             ...it's a gene sequence!!
DNA is a two stranded molecule complex, a string of ATCG's linked to another string of ATCG's and held together by a big ribose sugar.
For example, a string of DNA can be represented by just the data in the strands
A-T
C-G
G-C
C-G
T-A
A-T
C-G
G-C
T-A 
Adenine always bonds to thymine (A-T and T-A), cytosine always bonds to guanine (C-G and G-C) so if the strand splits...
A-                       -T
C-                       -G
G-                       -C
C-                       -G
T-                        -A
A-                        -T
C-                        -G
G-                        -C
T-                        -A
...then free floating bases (un-paired adenine, thymine, cytosine and guanine molecules) bond up to the strands...
A-T                       -T
C-                      C-G
G-                         -C
C-G                       -G
T-                         -A
A-                       A-T
C-                         -G
G-C                       -C
T-                          -A
...pretty soon you get...
A-T                      A-T
C-G                     C-G
G-C                     G-C
C-G                     C-G
T-A                      T-A
A-T                      A-T
C-G                     C-G
G-C                     G-C
T-A                      T-A
...TWO PERFECT COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL STRAND.
This is basically what happens in sexual reproduction. You get half of your Dad's chromosomes (bundles of multi-billion digit strands), and half of your Mum's chromosomes. The 23 chromosomes from your Dad team up with their opposite numbers from your Mum to form 23 chromosome pairs (46 chromosomes total).
It's the pairs that then set about producing all the relevant proteins, (and organs, limbs, bones etc) making a new individual.
For example, one of the pairs is responsible for gender. Your Mum has an XX pair, (two X chromosomes, so called because they look like... well... an X), so she'll pass on either one of these X chromosomes.
So you get an X sex chromosome from your Mum.
Your Dad has an XY pair for a sex chromosome (guess what the Y chromosme looks like under the microscope! Biologists have NO sense of humour) so he'll pass on either an X or a Y sex chromosome. (when his chromosome pairs are split up to make 23 chromosome cells: sperm)
Hence the Baby gets an X from the Mum and either an X or a Y from the Dad.
An XX sex chromosome pair (like the mothers) will produce a female baby, an XY pair (like the fathers) will produce a male baby.
However, and this is where things start to get interesting. The splitting of the chromosme pairs isn't always perfect... somethimes deletions or double ups can happen. With the sex chromosome you could possibly get:
XX normal healthy female
XY normal healthy male
X a slightly less fertile female with male personality traits
XYY hyper male, higher testosterone and very aggressive, three times more likely to commit murder and disproportionately abundant in the populations of maximum security prisons.
XYYY super male, supposedly taller, larger, more intelligent men with an increased statistical tendency to be paedophiles.
XXYY very little information available, but much more likely to be born with ambiguous genitalia or even hemaphroditic
XXXYY sometimes male, sometimes female, sometimes intersex but usually homosexual or transexual.    ...interesting eh?
THE MYOSTATIN BIT
In the early nineties genetics labs around the world started picking a gene (a string of three bases such as ACG or GAT) at random and simply cutting it out. But seeing as 90% of DNA in most animals (including humans) is simply inactive junk... the experiments seldom  did anything unusual in the altered animals. After all, they were only changing one-hundred-millionth of one strand in one chromosome in one of the chromosome pairs.
That is until until someone produced wasps with extra legs growing out of their eyeballs.
The first Hocks gene had been found!
Out of the 5 billion-odd genes in the human genome, only about 20,000 are active. How could only 20,000 genes describe all the blueprints for something as complex as a human being and all the biochemical systems it involves?
The answer: some of the genes (Hock's genes) act as master control switches activating and more importantly de-activating other genes and controling how the active genes interact with the inactive junk DNA.
Hence the same genes that grow gills in fish can be modultated by the affect of Hocks genes to produce lungs in human beings. Amazing eh??
One of these master genes (called Myostatin) controls the distribution of muscle tissue. When scientists removed the gene from mice they expected to produce mice with absolutely NO muscle tisue. But instead of Skeletor mice they got He-man mice, three times the weight of a normal mouse, 5% bodyfat instead of 20% and rippling with muscles.
It seems the foetus doesn't just grow muscle tissue when it's developing, it has to be told when to STOP producing muscle.
But here is the problem, no one is quite sure how this gene is expressed.
-Does it set other genes into effect during foetal development. Does it tell the foetus when there are enough muscle cells in the meso-layer thereby producing individuals with increased (but fixed) numbers of muscle cells when it's absent?
-does it tell muscle cells when to stop splitting into more muscle cells? A process known as hyperplasia (it doesn't seem to happen in humans, normal humans).
-does it produce an intra-cellular hormone that regulates/halts muscle growth?
-does it desensitise hormone receptors on muscle cells? No myostatin and the muscles become more and more sensitive to the effects of GH, IGF-1 or insulin?
As you can see it all gets very complicated very quickly...
We do have a few hints:
*the He-man mice were odd in other ways. They had a poor metabolic response to exercise and were so timid that normal mice in the same cage literally ATE THEM ALIVE!! Meaning the absence of myostatin could have neurological effects.
*no major internal abnormalities/pathologies have been noted (nothing that couldn't be explained by the increase in bodyweight) raising doubts that myostatin only has effects within the womb, if it did then we could expect some developmental disorders.
(for example: Proteus syndrome, a gene halting skeletal formation is damaged/missing and those double recessive for the gene are characterised by extra long big toes. However every time a Proteus sufferer bruises themselves, the bruised muscle calcifies to form a bone because the skeletal formation system has not been turned off.)
*another Hocks gene removed from mice produced abnormally fat mice with huge appetites. This gene was called Leptin and was hailed as the Holy Grail of obesity research when it turned out to be a hither-to-unknown hormone. No leptin equals fat ass mice, extra leptin lowered the mice's appetites and bodyfat levels. Unfortunately it didn't work in adult humans till your bodyfat levels were already under 5%.
I would hazard a guess that myostatin turns out to be the same deal as leptin: it's biggest effects will happen in the womb and people taking anti-myostatin will have pumped muscles that are two weak to be trained, or will notice no difference at all.
Either way, Dorian-abol is probably never going to happen.
Now here is where we enter the Twillight Zone:
According to reliable reports this German Myostatin deficient five-year-old (both his parents are mono-recessive for a damaged version of the gene) is perfectly normal except for his muscle size.
BUT the same reports are at pains to withold the identity of the family, and the authors gloss over the fact that the boy is about EIGHT TIMES STRONGER than children his own age pointing out that this ratio will probably decrease with age till he is only 150% as strong as other adults when fully grown. He is tall for his age but nothing out of the ordinary.
The family involved have an ironclad legal arrangement with the doctor who is doing the research and will never be identified without their consent. ALL the details of of the published research must be cleared with the family first. NO OTHER medical experts have examined the boy.
The boys school hired a helper to patrol the schoolyard, (follow monster boy around without getting close enough tomake it obvious) after the myostatin kid picked up and threw one of his class mates.
***** EVERYTHING WRITTEN BELOW IS COMPLETELY UNSUBSTANTIATED *****
The RUMOUR (and this is only a rumour) in the genetics community is that all this excessive secrecy is warranted because the there is no sign of the boys growth spurt slowing down. Apparently there is every chance that the estimated 220-240 lbs adult weight is a lie.
A few geneticists interested in the case have reported that should his growth pattern continue (there's no way to tell if it's a growth spurt or the normal growth pattern for someone with his condition) he will probably weigh 450-600 lbs with 5-8 % bodyfat AT EIGHT FEET TALL when fully grown. One geneticist claimed an adult size of 200 lbs at five foot is more likely, while another disputed the eight foot claim saying seven foot was more realistic... seven foot AND 800-1,100 lbs!!!
But all of this is only speculation, it's the conspiracy theories that are more interesting.
The child's face has never been shown in a photo, not even in the photos taken of him as a baby. Neither have his arms... leading to the claim that the child has splayed legs, an unusual pelvis structure, enlarged joints, thick bones, a bell shaped rib cage, an enlarged jaw/dental structure, robust features (deep-set eyes and a heavy brow ridge) along with an unusual forearm to upper arm ratio. Does any of this ring a bell with anyone... ever heard a description of a Neanderthal??
If a four year-old can hold 15lb dumbbells at arms length in a crucifix position for 10 minutes... is it so far beyond the realms of possibility that he's a throwback... missing the gene that separated us from proto-European cavemen 30,000 years ago??
But then again, sparse evidence often breeds wild theories...
It has been hinted that the German government has already made arrangements to put the family into hiding should the need arise. Sound planning to some, but to the adherents of conspiracy theory it lends credence to the wildest claims: that the boy had his whole body electrolysed to remove excessive body hair and has distinctly simian features. Big hands, long arms and REALLY, REALLY BIG FEET!!! INCLUDING A HINGED FOOT WITH A META-TARSAL BREAK!!
Maybe he'd be more at home in the forests of Northern California.
Of course that is just totally crazy... isn't it??
Isn't it??
The Luke
PS- all you guys owe me five bucks.



I totally understood that....

The Luke

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Re: Newly discovered gene drug - New Age in Bodybuilding??
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2006, 02:52:56 PM »
Johnny Apollo,

When I was growing up people were ashamed of their ignorance... guess times change.

The Luke